Looks like it also applies to the 7&7 buyers as well. So, everyone with superlinear reward scaling.
Do the 15+ buyers still refuse Chimeras, or does the Exhaustion mechanic replace that?
It also adds a point of exhaustion if you affix a custom-engraved skull. So bad news for, er, people planning to stock up on those during the Feast of the Rose.
Do we know what quality determines how much Bone Market Exhaustion you accrue? Is it the value in pennies? The level of the attribute that is squared? A gain of 15 CP in one go seems extraordinarily punishing, especially since it locks you from the 7&7 buyers as well. Has anyone seen a more reasonable increment when selling a skeleton? Or is it a fixed 15 for selling to “top-tier buyers”?
I for one can confirm that I did not get any Exhaustion for selling a skeleton to the Rubbery Collector (8850 skeleton value in pennies, 4 Amalgamy, 4 Menace). The sale netted the appropriate amount of Nightsoil and 16 Baskets of Rubbery Pies, but I still have no Bone Market Exhaustion. So either this is gained only from selling to BDR 15+ buyers, or there is some value-related threshold that must be overcome to accumulate Exhaustion.
The last possibility that occurs to me is that selling Chimaeras (or implausible skeletons in general) might be part of the problem.
[quote=Lucius Vera]Seems like selling skeletons just became harder. 36% chance to sell to a rubbery collector with 6 implausibilty and 275 shadowy. Also there is a TtH limitation on selling to 14+ BDR buyers called ‘Bone Market Exhaustion’ that shouldn’t go above 3. I’ve got 15 from 1 sale (it says ‘depleted for 3 to 4 weeks’). Guess every buyer got so impressed with that one sale they refuse to deal with me now. Well, I did get 1300+ echo (not counting expenses) from that sale in pies and soil. But 3 to 4 weeks? Goodbye, bone market, I guess.
edited by Lucius Vera on 7/7/2020[/quote]
What type of a skeleton was it you sold? Was it a Chimaera? 1300 Echo makes it seem that the skeleton must have had a very high value in pennies AND extremely high Amalgamy × Menace. I’m not sure if this can be accomplished even by using Leviathan Frame.
Someone on Reddit claims that Exhaustion is 1 point per 50 echoes of “secondary” reward, rounded down. I don’t know if that’s 100% accurate, but it’s consistent with what you’ve observed and makes sense from a balance perspective. The thing that’s being rate-limited is superlinear scaling of rewards.
With 4 amalgamy and 4 menace, you would have received 16 rubbery pies worth 40 echoes. This is less than 50, so no Bone Exhaustion.
If the formula is right and you got 15 Bone Exhaustion from one sale, that would mean the secondary rewards were worth 750+ echoes. So if the total echo value was 1,300, that would mean a skeleton value of 550, plus 300 rubbery pies from Amalgamy and Menace. I don’t know exactly what you were building, but that seems plausible.
[quote=PSGarak]Someone on Reddit claims that Exhaustion is 1 point per 50 echoes of "secondary" reward, rounded down. I don’t know if that’s 100% accurate, but it’s consistent with what you’ve observed and makes sense from a balance perspective. The thing that’s being rate-limited is superlinear scaling of rewards.
With 4 amalgamy and 4 menace, you would have received 16 rubbery pies worth 40 echoes. This is less than 50, so no Bone Exhaustion.
If the formula is right and you got 15 Bone Exhaustion from one sale, that would mean the secondary rewards were worth 750+ echoes. So if the total echo value was 1,300, that would mean a skeleton value of 550, plus 300 rubbery pies from Amalgamy and Menace. I don’t know exactly what you were building, but that seems plausible.[/quote]
Thank you for the info! Another point of data in favour of this theory:
Selling a completely plausible bird skeleton with Amalgamy 5, Antiquity 4, value 8850 pennies to the Zailor with Particular Interests resulted in gain of 1 CP (possibly 2 CP - Exhaustion went from 0 to 1) of Bone Market Exhaustion. The only difference here was + 4 pieces of 2.5 E items, i.e. difference of + 10 Echo. Going from 40 to 50.
What about the low-tier buyers? Is selling to them increasing Exhaustion as well? I know that for Hoarding Palaeontologist this is not true, but what about the 3-14 BDR ones (though you’d need 20 in the respective quality to reach 50 E value). I’ll try with the Skull Enthusiast: he doesn’t become locked with Exhaustion, but kind of does provide non-multiplicative secondary reward of 87,5 E. According to the reddit theory, he should give either 0 or 1 Exhaustion. I need Vital Intelligences anyway and surplus rostygold might come useful either.
My guess is that only the buyers locked by Bone Exhaustion will give Bone Exhaustion. The issue at hand seems to be superlinear scaling, so secondary rewards that scale linearly probably aren’t an issue.
So apparently the Cranial Enthusiast actually decreases his Rostygold payout to compensate for the Vital Intelligence. Vital Intelligence is worth 12.5 echoes, and the Rostygold will be less than the Skeleton Value by 1,250 per head. According to Rostygold (the player, not the resource), there are situations where you end up paying him Rostygold (the resource) as part of the sale of the skeleton.
I can confirm that the Skull Enthusiast indeed has nothing to do with Exhaustion (and the decrease in Rostygold per head is also true).
Last thing I wonder about is how exactly is the "1 Exhaustion per 50 Echo value of supralinear rewards" calculated for those rewards that actually have lower echo value in Bazaar economy than when assessed according to Bone Market Value.
Final Breaths and Royal-Blue Feathers are both 0.5 E items, but you obtain them at same ratio as Rubbery Pies, Knobs of Scintillack and the other 2.5 E supralinear secondary rewards (unlike Ambiguous Eoliths, which are multiplied by 5 to correct for this).
Does anyone know if Exhaustion in these cases sticks to "1 point per 50 E worth" or is it actually "1 point per 20 pieces of the secondary reward"? The difference in these cases is 5-fold, or 1 week × 3 weeks of being locked out. As we now have uses for a lot of Final Breaths and Royal Feathers, this would certainly be quite helpful to know…
If none of you fine folk know, I’ll test this on a reasonable sample tomorrow. At the moment I lack the pertinent resources…
Update:
So, I did scrounge an 8 Amalgamy bird with 1 Implausibility and sold it to Tentacled Entrepreneur. Result was 64 Final Breaths (Bazaar value 32 E, value as per Bone Market economy 160). Exhaustion raised, but just from 1+0 CP to 1+1 CP - I had Bone Market Exhaustion 1 prior to selling and shown Exhaustion remained at one. This seems consistent only with the 50 E per Exhaustion concept, IF it was rounded to the nearest 50 and not always down.
That, or Bone Market Exhaustion uses a different system than simple "level + change points". This should probably be confirmed with Teller of Terrors if we want to be certain.
edited by Aardvark on 7/14/2020
[quote=Aardvark]
What type of a skeleton was it you sold?[/quote]
Obvious chimera. 7 headed skeleton, extended with amber, 7 vake heads + 6 helical thighbones, resulting in iirc 22 menace and 14 rubbery or 308 pies (770 echo). It fits well into 50 echoes runded down per point of exhaustion.
Lowest multiskulled skeleton I’ve managed to find has 8002 value (7 heads worth 8750 in vital intelligence), so if someone wants to check it’s 7 victim skulls (exclusive licentiate option) and 2 bat wings.
I’d check teller of terror, but someone likely will do it before my exhaustion goes away.
edited by Lucius Vera on 7/15/2020
Aardvark: My current theory is that a) Bone Exhaustion uses levels instead of change points b) due to a combination of factors, the increase text is displayed even when the increase is 0. So I think you didn’t gain any bone exhaustion for 32E of Final Breaths. But not 100% sure.
Lucius Vera: Thanks for the confirmation! That’s very useful data. And yikes, what a skeleton.
[quote=PSGarak]Aardvark: My current theory is that a) Bone Exhaustion uses levels instead of change points b) due to a combination of factors, the increase text is displayed even when the increase is 0. So I think you didn’t gain any bone exhaustion for 32E of Final Breaths. But not 100% sure.
[/quote]
That is possible, yes. I don’t think I’ve seen the increase message when I sold a skeleton for 16 Rubbery Pies, but I did not have the quality at the time at all, so a non-change may only display if it’s already higher than 0.
On an Exhaustion-unrelated Palaeontological note, I happened to visit Bullbone Island today and during the first stage, a new option became available (named A skull of Bullbone, borrowed). It allows buying a Horned Skull for 20 Surveys of Neath’s Bones. Details for wiki editors follow:
The picture is the same as in A Public Lecture, (Bone11.png I suppose), and the text says "Among all these, might there be something worth taking home for later?"
It unlocks with Palaeontologist and 20 Bone Surveys and lets you buy a Horned Skull for the 20 Surveys (no challenge, so guaranteed). Orthos is coming increases in the regular fashion, Echo is here.
The option remained visible even after I no longer had enough Surveys to take it iirc. For the 4 remaining actions, I took The bones of Bullbone and obtained one Horned Skull from an alternative success, so the new option is in addition to this potential source, not a replacement. If anyone wishes, I can send a screenshot as well, but I’ve provided as complete account as is seen on screen.
Cheers to all wiki builders!
I think some of the bones need to be buffed. I can’t think of a good reason to use Knotted Humeri on a skeleton, since the failure is so punishing and succeeding is less valuable in all senses than just affixing Albatross Wings. Plaster Tails are a bit better, but unless you’re trying to sell to the Sculptress they seem outclassed by Tomb Lion tails. Bone power creep isn’t a huge deal, but it would be nice to see the less useful bones get some love.
[quote=PSGarak]Aardvark: My current theory is that a) Bone Exhaustion uses levels instead of change points b) due to a combination of factors, the increase text is displayed even when the increase is 0. So I think you didn’t gain any bone exhaustion for 32E of Final Breaths. But not 100% sure.
[/quote]
I think we can basically confirm this hypothesis. At Exhaustion 1, I sold a 7-headed bird with 19250 value and 17 Menace to the Teller of Terrors. Result was 1930 Morelways + 289 Royal-Blue Feathers (144.5 E worth). Afterwards, exhaustion is at 3, which I believe is only consistent with both of your points.
I.e.: I got 2 levels from this sale (rounding down at 2.89 × 50 E); the result is only consistent when levels without usual CP progression are used; and in my previous reported sale, exhaustion was not gained but the text was still displayed. Everything fits, and the data should probably be solid enough even for wiki purposes.
I think that Thorned Ribcages have greater Theological Implications potential than the Wiki states. I affixed two Thighs of St. Fiacre onto my Ribcage today, and each of them gave 2 rather than the 1 that the wiki lists. I don’t know if there’s been a buff to make grinding Rumours of the Upper River easier for Mithridant Studies or if there is something in the formula that I’m not aware of.
Most bones are approximately balanced based on what it takes to acquire them. Knotted Humeri are limited to opportunity cards, but cost either nothing beyond the action, or one measly Bone Survey. A pair of Albatross Wings costs you either an Albatross (significant), or 25E of bone materials. If I’m trying to optimize Amalgamy and don’t need the Skeleton Value, I would probably rather use the Knotted Humerus and save myself the bone fragments. Most other bones with high penny value cost about as much to obtain as what they add to the skeleton (except Ivory Humerus!).
>>>in the formula that I’m not aware of.
Check this page https://fallenlondon.fandom.com/wiki/Affix_Saint_Fiacre’s_Thigh_Relic_to_your_(Skeleton_Type). Difficulty and amount of counter-church theology depends on ribcage type. Also you cant sell skele with antiquity to Sculptress and at this point you can lower antiquity only with special knife
edited by Waterpls on 7/17/2020
So I got 28 Bone Market Exhaustion for selling a single skeleton without any warning this would happen. I didn’t even know that was a thing now but apparently it will take 7 weeks to get rid of it? I really hope upcoming content won’t require large amounts of tailfeathers, final breaths or similar items because that’s a massive penalty out of nowhere to slap on in favor of balancing the reward formula.
Well… you can reduce Exhaustation with opportunity card. Cost is very high though.
There are also other fairly easy ways to get the items that the exhaustion-gated vendors provide, with the exception of the feathers and maybe the ivory. For instance, you can get Final Breaths by selling surveys of the neath to the Enthusiast of the Ancient world and you can get Warm Amber in decent quantities by selling Forty-Nine-Voiced Warblers to the Zailor with Particular Interests. It’ll just take more time to do.
Edit: Unless Bone Market Exhaustion locks you out from interacting with the Zailor entirely, in which case… that’s quite the restriction on Warm Amber.
edited by Mulligan on 7/17/2020
Wow, that’s a lot of exhaustion. How did you get that much?
It doesn’t. You can’t sell skeletons to them, but other options are open.
I got it by stacking antiquity and adding joints twice iirc. I sold the tailfeathers for scrip because I’m an idiot and didn’t notice exhaustion was a thing earlier, so now I don’t have any means to reduce Ealing Gardens: Darkness for the foreseeable future :)