My personal question is why on earth does Failbetter think Hallowmas needs “fixing”. They seem intent to revamp it in a major way every single year, but it only seems to be getting steadily worse and less fun, and really feels like change for the sake of change. I would very much like to know what FB actually wants to achieve in the end - at what point would they go, “ok this is exactly what we wanted to see - we’re happy with how this event plays out”. What’s the entire point of all this?
If you go and re-read the thread from last year’s Hallowmas, I think you’ll find out exactly why Failbetter thought they needed to fix Hallowmas this year. While I don’t necessarily agree with all of the design decisions that have been made this year, these decisions appear to have been made in direct response to the slew of community criticism that Hallowmas faced last year. Criticising Failbetter for changing festivals while at the same time, every year, insisting that the festival is busted and needs changing seems to me to be a little unfair.
As a community I think it is extremely important to maintain this kind of collective memory. If there had not been uproar over last year’s decisions, different decisions would not have been made this year, and that’s important to keep in mind. At the very least Failbetter need to be credited for hearing our criticisms and being willing to take new approaches in an attempt to address these criticisms, for trying all this new stuff in an attempt to improve an event which was received quite poorly.
I think it’s likely that next year Hallowmas will reappear in a yet-again different incarnation, precisely because of all of the comments in this thread here. And next year it’ll be important to remember, if we don’t like the changes that are made, that this time last year change was all that we were clamouring for. Failbetter are, when it matters, responsive to our feedback, and while I’m bordering on the insufferably pretentious this feels like a good time to remember where they got their name.
EDIT: I’m not saying we shouldn’t point out things we dislike; of course we should! And there are a number of things that I believe could’ve been done better this year, which I won’t go into because by and large they’ve been covered tenfold by other people. But it’s important to be fair even when we’re pointing out things that we think are unfair, and presenting the changes this year as uncalled for and unprompted (no matter how frustrating they may be - and I agree, some of the changes are frustrating) is, I think, unfair.
edited by Barse on 10/29/2018
I would disagree that there’s been major changes every year. The only significant revamp was changing from a social action grind to a story-focused single player grind. Everything after that was tweaks. The first year confessions were free with enough BDR, so Failbetter made them more expensive. Last year everyone felt they were too expensive, so Failbetter removed that aspect. This year the lore is in a different place, but we’re still getting confessions over time and trading in combinations for new companions and lore.
Granted, I don’t know why Failbetter removed the ability to grind confessions. In my opinion it was a terrible decision, but I also think having Notability grinds in a time-limited event is a terrible idea* in the first place, so YMMV.
- Since it locks non-PoSIs out entirely and anything doable for newer PoSIs is trivial for endgame players.
Honestly, I hope that Hallowmas next year only changes in terms of confession sources. Failbetter did a great job with the narrative changes this year, and the complaints really show that—people are upset because they really want to experience the new content to the fullest.
edited by Optimatum on 10/29/2018
Not changing the art for upgraded companions is a major, major bummer. We got the cool new bat last year–but same art. And this year, to make it worse–when I have a regular mandrake it shows up right next to the upgraded one instead of above in it’s "history slot" or however that used to work. So identical tiles sitting side by side for the upgraded companions. That’s a huge disappointment. As someone suggested in the thread–even just changing the background color would be better than nothing. No new art last year and this year, no new items at the zee festival–it really seems like they’re just going through the motions.
Hey, you know what I like? Cats. You know what I want more? Cats! I was so happy when I got to adopt cats using my Regnant Coins, of course now I’m happy too to see I can get even more cats!
So I’ve been thinking, please add the Wretched Mog to the Bazaar after the event is over! I don’t mind it’s more expensive to offset the action cost it now has. The Bazaar seems lacking in its option of regular cats, no? And I don’t mean an exiled noble or a tiger, just a good ol’ cat anyone can find curling in their lap or catching mice in their house. The Mog can be a nice addition to cover that niche. And I know Sunless Skies is more ‘in’ now, but I think it would be nice too if a player from Sunless Sea saw the Mog in the Bazaar and recognized a familiar face in it.
I totally agree with you, but as I understand it, some people who definitely don’t enjoy fun actually complained about the new art, and so they got rid of it. So blame the other players for that poor decision.[/quote]
I don’t mean that new art–I mean slightly changing the old art to go with the upgrade, like the new accomplice got new hair and earrings, and I think a new henchman got a scar etc.
The bat, the BWA, the Utterly Livid, and the Thunderwings Batling all have the exact same tile! Though to be fair, the the BWA was always the same as the sulky one. I so with for different bits of bat art–even just a little change would be so awesome.
To each his own, I suppose. For my part, I am happy with the changes overall.
#1: 1894 Revamp. Hallowmas is redesigned to center on companion upgrades, with Huffam-takes-all as the completionist end goal. Fun, unique among other events (since it is quite distinct in many ways from the other companion-fest in February), gives some lasting toys for everyone. Perhaps a bit linear.
#2: 1895. New companions, and also new best-in-slot mayoral weapon. Budget players have to make a choice, but completionists have the option of a frenetic chase to catch 'em all. The addition of a non-companion choice broadened the appeal of the event without compromising the central companion focus; however, I do think they underestimated the completionist pressure. They acknowledged and attempted to mitigate this part-way through.
#3. 1896. New companions again, and again a new best-in-slot mayoral weapon. A third option has been added, one with a broader appeal than the more mechanical options, but united through the confessions mechanic. The removal of the Huffam-takes-all goal relaxes the event some and help mitigate the completionist pressure (still there for the true completionist, of course, but not for the trophy hunter), allowing individual players and characters to decide which goals to pursue. The confession numbers are still a bit tight, but again a dose of free confessions helps to mitigate. Now base-level interaction can achieve two of the larger goals, or one goal and a substantive number of new companions.
So, overall, I think Hallowmas is improving, broadening its appeal and refining its mechanics, and new changes can generally be traced directly to a weakness of the Hallowmas before. The major problem this year was the lack of information, and I suspect that will be addressed in the future. The second weakness, I suppose, is the quantity of confessions. Two years running FB has given out a shot of free confessions, and while this may have been something of a palliative (especially this year), it may also point to a perennial problem. Either someone didn’t tot up the numbers correctly, or opinions about what constitutes an acceptable baseline achievement for the event differ widely inside and outside the hallowed halls of Failbetter.
Let us take a closer look.
-
Companions. Intriguing and perhaps mechanically relevant upgrades to companions are the center of the event, and I think the year delivers. The removal of the Huffam Prize means that at least one goal of Hallowmas is not all-or-nothing, and I think that’s a good spot for the companions to be in. The only weakness here (as was often said last year) is that they have not followed the first year’s example in giving each upgraded companion a touched-up appearance, leading to the Wall of Identical Mogs effect and generally losing some of the magic.
-
Weapon. The new weapon is well-received, and (after the booster shot) affordable to combine with other actions. I will say that patterns in browser games are like government programs: the moment you create one, you have created a faction with an entrenched interest in maintaining it. I hope Failbetter consciously intends to make this a tradition, because if not then they’ve set themselves up for lots of angry Londoners in 1897.
-
Lore. I can’t judge this, obviously, until at least 31 October, but they’ve dangled a mighty interesting carrot in front of us. The Rosers are often hinted at, you can get a solid general idea by putting together all the pieces, but there’s much that we don’t know, and many who want to. Assuming they have written satisfying endings (and that is, if we properly qualify satisfying, Failbetter stock in trade), this element is likely to go over well, and perhaps be the thing people most clamor for next year.
-
Confessions. The seventeen total confessions we got (or twenty, for those affected by the reset) allow a good range of choices in their use, and that is exactly what Hallowmas wants. I do, however, think this still requires work. An event shouldn’t require a patch to run smoothly. Next year, I hope to see either the total confession requirements lowered or the number of free confessions raised so that the average player feels the available confessions allow a reasonable return for participation, and that anything beyond that is extra, for the completionist or the overachiever or the person who just has to have X things.
I will also note that I have nothing personally against the collect-and-done daily cycle of Hallowmas. The Advent Calendar is a collect-and-done cycle, and so is Sacksmas. While I grant you that both Christmas events have more interesting daily moments, they also don’t lead up to something outside themselves. This year at least, Hallowmas confessions do. I am happy with that.
- Information. This was the big ball drop this year. I’ve spent more than enough words on this, so I will just say that I have high hopes that next year’s Hallowmas will address that issue.
This year’s plan of upgradable companions, powerful unique equipment, and fascinating secrets seems like a winner to me, as long as the average player can reasonably expect to achieve two of those three goals. If they can solve the issues with confession numbers and reasonable information before the event (instead of during), then they may have a repeatable pattern-book on their hands. On the other hand, they may make use of the preexistent pattern and send us something entirely new. As long as ye of Failbetter keep piquing my interest and trying to improve from the year before (whether, in my own opinion, it succeed or not), I will always be game for another go.
I think the best upgraded art was the Tigress with the Tiara! I moved heaven and earth that year to get one for myself and all 3 of my alts. If I had to choose just one critter to get new art–it would be the four kinds of bats, but that’s for another thread. I do love upgraded companions–the descriptions that go with them, etc. are so fun. I must say this year, I’m really enjoying what each of the three ladies is doing to the various critters!
Thanks! I might have missed that it had been added and I have been wanting that fancy lance since last year![/quote]
Likewise.
It’s overpowered and expensive, and I love that.
I - like others - feel that Hallowmas hasn’t gone as well as I’d have hoped.
I mean, I can well understand the ‘fuss’ about Notability - the difference between the BDR 25ish of a lategame player vs. the ‘2-3’ of a new player (not to mention 'not being a PoSI in the first place) is quite large.
But I also think it’s a bit of a shame to have what feels like nothing to do whilst the festival is on. I did a turn of the Fruits of The Zee, and spent a reasonable amount of time chasing after ‘strange catch’ and quite enjoying it. It was somewhat profitable, but I feel accessible for both newer and older players.
I’m not sure how a confessions grind could really work - but at the very least an opportunity card maybe? Or have ‘extras’ pop up through existing grind mechanics perhaps? So you could do a ‘flash lay’, expedition, burglary, have a ‘hunt is on…’ chase for one, or perhaps a round trip to Zee (get a bonus confession when you ‘return to london’ so you can just make a ‘patrol’ searching for one).
None the less - I am glad I will probably have sufficient confessions to get the extremely tasty weapon, a companion upgrade and a few left over for ‘endings’.
edited by Ed Rolison on 10/29/2018
I didn’t mean this year specifically - I meant both of these years. I also wasn’t present for the social action based Hallowmas, so while that sounds like bloody fun and many people have expressed how they miss it, I’m going to keep it out of this argument since I have no first-hand experience.
Now, what was the major complaint last year? That it was too hard to gain confessions. Only players with literally 32 or 33 BDR had a shot at getting every collectible, and that’s ignoring the Criminal Record wipe and the useless titles because there’s a good argument to be made that they weren’t intended to be part of a completionist’s goal. What about the year before that? I may be wrong, but I don’t remember any major complaints. People grinded their confessions, got everything they wanted, and were happy. So my post also applies to last year; why did they feel so hard the need to change the cost so much? It was fine, mostly. I think the argument that Notability grinds are inherently flawed has merit, but then the solution would have been to replace it with a completely different grind, not to make the grind much much worse.
You then say that the changes this year were in direct response to last year’s complaints. Except that they took everything we complained about - confessions were too hard to get - and cranked it up to eleven: confessions are plain and simple impossible to get (unless you pay to win). As someone who was rather vocal about my frustrations last year, I would take a repeat of last year over what we have now any day. Again, 2016 was fine. They decided it was a good idea to change it, it turned out to actually be a pretty horrible idea, so next year they decided to change it even more. That’s what I meant when I said they were going with change for the sake of change. It almost feels a bit like a childish way to spite end-game players: "Oh, you threw a hissy fit because the grinding that was only open to you in the first place got harder? Well, now you can’t grind at all anymore! How do you like that?"
Maybe it’s my (and everyone else who’s frustrated) attitude that’s the problem. Maybe we shouldn’t approach Hallowmas as an event that can give use great rewards, but rather as a fun seasonal thing and if FB is kind enough we might even be able to snag some unique items. Elections barely give you anything aside from the initial gift, yet nobody complains. However, I think that the problem is that Elections don’t dangle juicy rewards in front of us then make it nigh impossible to collect them all. And looking at the other events, pretty much every time end-game and/or highly active players have no trouble getting everything there is to get: Fruits of the Zee is comfortably completable in 2 weeks unless your luck is abysmal beyond measure; Christmas is complicated but even on my first one I got almost everything I wanted, and importantly next year it’s all available again and won’t be Fate-locked and rotated out for a new set of rewards; Feast of the Rose has all its non-Fate-locked rewards easily obtainable in one year, and again it doesn’t rotate rewards yearly; and the aforementioned Elections don’t have much in the way of rewards, but the one exclusive gift that is only available for free once requires no grinding whatsoever.
This, I suspect, is the source of frustration. Hallowmas used to follow this pattern too: you just need to play enough during the two weeks and you’ll be rewarded! But not anymore. And following the backlash last year when this pattern was first broken, FB doubled down on making Hallowmas the one event where no matter how end-game you are and how actively you play, you can’t get everything - not even the most important bits. And that’s where my question of "Why?" stems from - what was wrong with 2016 Hallowmas? Why did that, out of all the other events, get branded as "too easy" and get embarked on a quest to prevent players from "completing" it?
I find myself sincerely hoping the Rosers story doesn’t give any unique material rewards whatsoever, because a couple of the companions are amazing this year and so is the mayoral weapon and I can just barely get them (while missing out on the companions that are "very nice" but not quite "amazing"). And if there’s another good item revealed, I’ll be forced to give something up, and there’s literally nothing I can’t do - and I don’t understand why this choice is something that should be forced on me, and on everyone. Does Failbetter think it makes the game more fun? Or the items more exclusive? Or do they just want to prey on those who won’t be able to resist flushing down their wallets to get the coolest virtual items? Or do they have some abstract design goal they’re trying to steer the event towards but can’t seem to get right? The latter seems the most plausible, hence my inquiry. What is it you’re trying to do, dear Failbetter?
I still regret sharing secrets with the Mayor: 3 progresses for 2 favours only is a 16 favours loss… Hard-paid lessons…
[quote=Barse]If you go and re-read the thread from last year’s Hallowmas, I think you’ll find out exactly why Failbetter thought they needed to fix Hallowmas this year. While I don’t necessarily agree with all of the design decisions that have been made this year, these decisions appear to have been made in direct response to the slew of community criticism that Hallowmas faced last year. Criticising Failbetter for changing festivals while at the same time, every year, insisting that the festival is busted and needs changing seems to me to be a little unfair.
As a community I think it is extremely important to maintain this kind of collective memory. If there had not been uproar over last year’s decisions, different decisions would not have been made this year, and that’s important to keep in mind. At the very least Failbetter need to be credited for hearing our criticisms and being willing to take new approaches in an attempt to address these criticisms, for trying all this new stuff in an attempt to improve an event which was received quite poorly.
I think it’s likely that next year Hallowmas will reappear in a yet-again different incarnation, precisely because of all of the comments in this thread here. And next year it’ll be important to remember, if we don’t like the changes that are made, that this time last year change was all that we were clamouring for. Failbetter are, when it matters, responsive to our feedback, and while I’m bordering on the insufferably pretentious this feels like a good time to remember where they got their name.[/quote]
Well said. I think it’s also important to remember that the forum members represent a small contingent of the overall FL population, along with being the most vocal. The challenge any designer has is to balance this feedback with the goals and evolution of the game/universe.
On a related note, the thread feedback about this year’s "Fruits of the Zee" festival were largely negative because there were no changes! So I’m sure it sometimes can feel like there will be constructive criticism no matter what.
J-
[quote=Jason5237]
On a related note, the thread feedback about this year’s "Fruits of the Zee" festival were largely negative because there were no changes! So I’m sure it sometimes can feel like there will be constructive criticism no matter what.
J-[/quote]
Don’t mix apples and oranges! "No new items" is NOT the same thing as "no changes." We’re talking about changing mechanics, here, I think.
The lack of anything interesting if you don’t care about the companions springs to mind. I assume that was at least partly behind Feducci’s lance. (Also, it was redeeming the promise that we’d see the Mayor appear through the year.) I suspect, but cannot confirm, that the addition of the Rosers to this year may have had a similar thought behind it. After all, if you do not care about companions, or about equipment, or about the story of the game, I have to start asking whether you are, in fact, playing Fallen London. Even if, for argument’s sake, I grant that there may not be something for everyone this year, I think it’s safe to say that the approach is pretty close.
Well, yes. Perhaps without the "constructive" part. If you do anything publicly, you are going to get feedback, and you will almost certainly get negative feedback. It’s something one has to learn to deal with, and one has to learn how to sort out useful feedback from griping. You will never, ever make everyone happy, and you will fail miserably if you try.
That said, to quote (paraphrase?) Mark Rosewater, if everyone likes your game and nobody loves it, it will fail. His example was the "rare poll," where potential card designs were circulated through the company. If one card gets half 10/10 and half 1/10 and a second gets all 7/10, which will be successful? The first. If you’re doing something right then people are going to be passionate about it, and some of those people are going to passionately hate it. That is, in its own way, a measure of success.
Since we are quoting MaRo, I feel FBG somewhat disregard his "don’t fight human nature" maxim. They are very wedded to the disclaimer "don’t make assumptions about seasonal events" even though clearly everyone does and will and it inevitably leads to much heartache.
My Aftermath of an Audacious Theft was stuck at 6, so I only got one confession today. Is that normal?
It is normal to only get one confession each weekday, but it is not normal if that is the only confession you’ve gotten this Hallowmas. They ration the confessions by allowing one step higher "Aftermath of an Audacious Theft" every weekday, so that if you don’t get the confession today, you can get two tomorrow, or three the next day, and so on, until November 6th, when they will apparently stop raising that number.
I grant this.
[quote=Dudebro Pyro]snip
What is it you’re trying to do, dear Failbetter?[/quote]
You said everything I wanted to say in the feedback thread but couldn’t because with English not being my first language I tend to fail to get my point across eloquently.
Reading back about the previous years’ Hallowmas and the changes to the mechanics in the last two years has been a frustrating experience. I’d also like to know what the change from nota 5 to 8 was supposed to achieve, and why for this year things were changed again to double down on exactly the thing that players seemed to hate so much.
My cynical side says it is just a way to sell more Fate. But judging from the reactions all this is also driving away players, and I want to believe their motivations did account for the long term effects.
I’m pretty sure the switch from Notability 5 to Notability 8 was because the former is absolutely trivial for endgame players. With max BDR, Notability 5 is entirely free, so whenever someone drew the Amanuensis card they could get a confession in only ten actions. Most people ground further to Notability 6 because it was faster than waiting to draw the Amanuensis.
If Failbetter had only increased the difficulty to Notability 6, I think people would have been fine with that. Most endgame players would have managed just fine with Notability 7, even if they didn’t enjoy it. But Notability 8 didn’t work well for anyone.
I still think that Notability is a bad idea for a seasonal currency in the first place, though. Either it’s trivial for some people or impossible for others, and no matter what it locks the newest players out entirely. Maybe if confessions just needed raw MW it would work, but that has issues too…