The Bazaar has an actual daughter, so it’s not a metaphor.
A while back (a year ago? Is it in this thread?) Alexis chimed in to remind us that Karakorum was not actually stolen by bats, and dropped some hints that the First City might not have been an actual single historical city, but a bit of an amalgam. Based on recent content, I think the association with the Eye Temple was to make a tie-in to worship of the Judgements
Quite simply, there’s just not enough known about the Tell Brak city. aside from the Eye Temple, to draw much from it. That said, I think a fair bit about the First City (“held together by belief”) describes Uruk fairly well.
If my conjecture that the “when Babylon fell” in the common saying is actually a reference to the Tower of Babel (which, I surmise, could have been the Bazaar itself), and which could be referring to the ziggurat of Eridu instead of the much later city of Babylon, then the timing lines up nicely.
You know, I just sat down and read this entire thread in a single go. Wow, that took a while…still, the amount of passion, dedication, and nose-to-the-grindstone research that everyone over the years has put into this is truly amazing. I wanted to voice my appreciation and enjoyment of all the hard work everyone has done here aloud. Well done, one and all.
Has anyone considered Uruk as the First City? I’m struck by the similarities between the tale of Gilgamesh and Enkidu (Now King with a Hundred Hearts), and that legend says Gilgamesh built the city from cedar.
Also, the Bazaar seems to have a habit of trading the life of a ruler’s loved one for their city. What if Gilgamesh wasn’t rebuffed at the end of his quest?
I wish that there was a better way to search the forum, but has anyone raised the possibility that the First City is not, in fact, a historical city at all? Since Rome itself is out, as it fell rather after Amarna [and until I read this thread I had been convinced that the First City Coins were denari], what about something off the wall, like Atlantis? I mean, what more appropriate fate for the “sunken continent” than to be pulled down to the Neath… and didn’t an admin leave a cryptic hint about continents rather than cities?
Maybe someone else already debunked it, but I so want this one to be true.
As a whole, you guys are too obsessed with matching the Fallen cities with historical cities that “fell” around the time the masters acquired them. Just look at the Fifth City: London. It obviously didn’t fall in the 1800s and remains one of the strongest cities in the world today. Add in the demons, rubbery men, firey letters, talking cats, immortal populations, and (alien) masters… this obviously exists in an alternative timeline. When trying to piece together the identity of a Fallen city, you shouldn’t get too hung up over cities that were sacked/fell to ruin/mysteriously disappeared. I believe there is in-game text mentioning that the Fourth city was sold out of desperation (enemy armies encircling them), which could easily refer to the Ming conquest of a few key Mongol cities. However… LONDON. So we have one city that “fell” when it historically did and another that only “fell” in the alternative timeline.
I think the 4th city “falling” with its historical counterpart isn’t indicative of a pattern so much as the unique situation of its fall. The second and fifth cities definitely fell out of love (Prince Albert and hte Cantagaster). Considering the Bazaar’s fascination with love stories… this is more likely the cause. I’m not too sold on the first and seconds being thousands of years old… if for no other reason than the time gaps between the recent cities. If the Bazaar is buying cities every few hundred years, why would it wait THOUSANDS between the second and third? London and Karkorum/Xanadu are about 500 years apart. The 4th city and Hopelchan are about 4-500 years apart as well. If Babylon fell in 539 BC, then the 2nd city would fall somewhere between 1-400 AD. The point is that the spacing would never deviate by more than a couple centuries- not millenia.
As for the Vake? Was it specifically “created” to torment the 2nd city, or could it have predated the 2nd city and just proved to be a particular menace for them?
“No Snuffers. No Masters. No Constables. No Copper. I’ll stay down here. Survive the next Fall. Only two more. Then the Bazaar can go and we’ll live forever. Might need to eat each other. Not much to eat down here. Fish. Fungus. Forget we’re hungry, though. I like your shoes.”
I found this in the Cave of the Nadir when upgrading a pair of hushed silk slippers. This does seem to heavily confirm that there will only be a total of 7 cities. Of course, these guys are all mad… but there is definitely a theme of “Forbidden knowledge leads to madness” in the world of Fallen London. Just look at the Topsy King and the Correspondence in general.
[li]
Because the princesses of the Second City did something that chained the Bazaar to the Second City, potentially indefinitely, or at least until the God-Eaters got their teeth into the affairs of the Masters.
I now thoroughly believe the First City is Uruk. I’ve been reading Wikipedia’s summary for The Epic of Gilgamesh, and I see too many similarities between it and Fallen London;s lore to not ignore- I mean this on top of all the previous suggestions relating to Uruk, obviously. This argument on its own is weak.
[spoiler]We must assume things, first of all. Gilgamesh is the Manager of The Royal Bethlehem Hotal, and Enkidu is his lover. It’s far fetched, but there are reasons why- and not just pertaining to the homoerotic tension that scholars have suggested over the years. First of all, Enkidu was made by the goddess Aruru out of clay- this relates to the fact that the Manager is in love with a statue or Clay Man and sold the city for him. Enkidu is described as a large, loud, brutish, uncivilized savage- exactly how Clay Men would be described. The reason I say they love each other is because of interactions before they meet each other. After Enkidu leaves the wild, he travels to Uruk specifically for a longing companionship. In Uruk, Gilgamesh sleeps, and has a foretelling dream, where he sees a rock- a representation of Enkidu, a clay man,- and caresses it, approaching it ‘as if it were a woman’ (I got this part out of Wikipedia, here: The Epic of Gilgamesh Tablet I Summary and Analysis | GradeSaver ). When they befriend each-other, they stick together for their entire lives through thick or thin. This could be friendship, or it could be much more. By the way, dreams are a huge part of the Epic of Gilgamesh- another connection to Fallen London, which also obsesses with dreams.
So, Enkidu and Gilgamesh have bromance adventures, and during these adventures they slay two different monsters- Humbaba and Gugalanna. The gods believe one of them must be killed, and they choose Enkidu. Enkidu receives an ominous dream, and part of this dream is this (taken from Wikipedia, highlighted by me)-
‘he sees himself being taken captive to the Netherworld by a terrifying Angel of Death. The underworld is a "house of dust" and darkness whose inhabitants eat clay, and are clothed in bird feathers, supervised by terrifying beings. For 12 days, Enkidu’s condition worsens. Finally, after a lament that he could not meet a heroic death in battle, he dies.’
I believe the Netherworld, quite obviously, is the Neath, and therefore that the beings are The Masters. When Enkidu died, Gilgamesh has an unusually, distressingly long period of mourning, and he calls upon everyone- the mountains, trees, animals, and Uruk- to mourn with him. Why is he this depressed? Sure, he’s his best friend, but to be this sad? Enkidu must have meant everything to him. More support for my hypothesis that they were lovers, and that Gilgamesh is the Manager.
Then Gilgamesh ‘commissions a funerary statue, and provides grave gifts from his treasury to ensure that Enkidu has a favorable reception in the realm of the dead. A great banquet is held where the treasures are offered to the gods of the Netherworld.’ -hints of deals with The Masters? More on that later.
So Gilgamesh goes on a quest for immortality, stuff happens, etc. I’ve compiled random quotes and highlighted them, next to my hypothesis, because I believe they reveal more connections:
Gilgamesh meets a woman in search of a man named Utnapishtim, the survivor of a ‘Great Flood’, who Gilgamesh believes has immortality. So she ‘sends him to Urshanabi the ferryman, who will help him cross the sea to Utnapishtim. Gilgamesh, out of spontaneous rage, destroys the stone-giants that live with Urshanabi. He tells him his story, but when he asks for his help, Urshanabi informs him that he has just destroyed the only creatures who can cross the Waters of Death, which are deadly to the touch’ -Is the ferryman the Boatman? Are the stone-giants Clay Men? What is their connection to this deadly sea? Waters of Death = Death by Water? Or is it the Unterzea? Are any of these concepts connected to the Manager or The First City in Fallen London? I’m not that far into the game, so if I’m drawing connecting lines that don’t exist, or these concepts have been mentioned to connect at one point, let me know.
So he meets the survivor, who tells him this horrifying story about a storm the gods caused, and eventually he mentions something interesting:
'The storm lasted six days and nights, after which "all the human beings turned to clay" ’ - is this the origin for Clay Men? I know they came from The First City somehow.
Now, nothing even remotely relating to Fallen London really happens after that and the story ends, and Gilgamesh dies, so I was disappointed and believed the connections I drew were ridiculous stretching of logic. But then I found out there was a final chapter which scholars believe was added on later, as some sort of prequel which mixes slightly with Enkidu’s death, and that’s where the connections come together:
‘Gilgamesh complains to Enkidu that various of his possessions (the tablet is unclear exactly what — different translations include a drum and a ball) have fallen into the underworld.’ The Neath? ‘Enkidu offers to bring them back. Delighted, Gilgamesh tells Enkidu what he must and must not do in the underworld if he is to return. Enkidu does everything which he was told not to do. The underworld keeps him.’ Enkidu dies? The Masters keep him hostage? ‘Gilgamesh prays to the gods to give him back his friend. Enil and Suen don’t reply, but Ea and Shamah decide to help. Shamash makes a crack in the earth, and Enkidu’s ghost jumps out of it. The tablet ends with Gilgamesh questioning Enkidu about what he has seen in the underworld.’ Are the gods The Masters? I think they are. I think they revived Enkidu for Gilgamesh in exchange for Uruk- remember, Enkidu’s death here converges with his death earlier, and we know that Gilgamesh offered things to the Netherworld gods in that version of his death. Hey may have offered Uruk. So that’s my take.[/spoiler]
[quote=Johannes Faustus]Epic of Gilgamesh - Wikipedia
I now thoroughly believe the First City is Uruk. I’ve been reading Wikipedia’s summary for The Epic of Gilgamesh, and I see too many similarities between it and Fallen London;s lore to not ignore- I mean this on top of all the previous suggestions relating to Uruk, obviously. This argument on its own is weak.
snip[/quote]
While I, too, think that Uruk was the first city, I’m afraid that much of that spoiler-box of yours is for naught. It all has to do with the fifth player of the Marvelous from the Heart’s Desire ambition. (Spoilers for Heart’s Desire, natch)
[spoiler]That fifth player is the Manager himself. He has promised his lover that he would not play again. Thus, those of us who chose to seek the Marvelous for our ambition journey to Polythreme to meet with his former (yes, former) lover—the King with a Hundred Hearts, a massive, living, man-shaped statue made of marble. Like a Clay Man, but larger, and more prestigious. The King confirms for us that it was actually the Manager who ruled the city, and his Kingship came later. We are shown—I forget, exactly, the manner, but we are shown, not told—he who would become the King with a Hundred Hearts bedridden, and in terrible pain, as the Manager, then his lover and Priest-King of what would become the First City, weeps at his side. Then, two mysterious figures, cloaked and hooded, emerge from the shadows. One carries a Cup, and another a Candle. They announce that they have a proposition for the Priest-King. I’m sure you can guess what it is.
So, while the Epic of Gilgamesh would differ from our story at the point where the gods (perhaps the Judgements?) elect to visit death upon Ekidnu, and the Manager sells his city to purchase eternity for the both of them. The Masters’ method of delivering Ekidnu’s immortality being to take a diamond from the Mountain of Light and placing it in his chest—easily enough to turn a man of clay into marble.
As something of a a side not, even if the circumstances of Urshanabi and his stone giants were true, it would not be relevant. The Clay Men are spawned from the King with a Hundred Hearts when he dreams—and the unfinished when he is set upon by nightmares.
[/spoiler]
edited by Lazaroth on 6/28/2015
edited by Lazaroth on 6/28/2015
Also it is mentioned in the fortunate success text for Identity Uncovered
‘…but have a look at these journals. They were confiscated from the Royal Bethlehem. Most of them are ravings about wells and going North, but see here. The Manager is an ancient priest-king? Now, I saw him once writing a menu in cuneiform…’
that the manager is writing cuneiform which I would think confirm Uruk since it is the origin of the first written story that remains from the history of mankind. Which also fits the original aim of the Masters I mean The Epic of Gilgamesh is at least in part the first ever written love story
After further research I also discovered that the creation myth Uruk’s, the Enuma Elish, closely resembles the creation of the Bazaar.
There were Apsu and Tiamat the two creation gods, the latter of which appears to be the Sun in the world of fallen london, create all the other things and later on get annoyed with them, thus Apsu decides to kill them, I assume that Apsu is the earth which might have been a eldritch thing at some point aswell(?), Tiamat disagrees and finally kills Apsu to stop it.
From here on it gets interesting as Tiamat finds a new husband Kingu(the bazaar ?) and creates eleven monsters(= the masters) after she is defeated she gets killed ripped apart and turned into the sky( proof for the sun thing) then her new husband is killed aswell and his blood(= lacre) is used to make the humanity( and as we know from the Nomans the lacre can create life). It is not cited what happened ith Kingu’s body but presumably he is buried thus put into the neath(?).
edited by Moritz on 7/2/2015
Must revive this. Any new leads on the First or Third City?
After going through this thread for the second time now, I thought I’d weigh in. All five cities seem very well researched and set, apart of course from the First. But I’d say that I agree with the whole Gilgamesh theory. As obscure as some of the in game hints are, few are as obscure as Tel Brak. The tale of Gilgamesh, though not immediately known, is still in the cultural psyche.
Anyway. Not what I came here for. I wanted to discuss patterns. The history of the Neath follows set patterns. Each city follows patterns.
So. A city is bargained for in return for some Hesperidean Cider to save a dying loved one of some form (the cloaked figures with a cup and an unlit candle at the first, the carving of hooded figures one bearing a cup from the second). Each bargain includes caveats. Diamond heart for the first, Cantegaster for the second, possibly an aversion to noise for the fifth with the Shuttered Palace (the Duchess mentioning the price that is known and the price that is not). Each city was at the time of its theft, the beating heart of an empire, after which the empire fell. Except in the case of the Second (cunning daughters). Also except in the case of the second, each was aquired after a period of 500 years. Meaning that unless something truly monumental goes wrong, another city won’t be taken until 2260ish. There are 7 cities needing to be taken. This may have some relation to the Stone Pigs and seems to be a reqirement for the Bazaar to leave the Neath and possibly go into space?
Now we get on to patterns touched on but not really discussed.
First. The people who trade the cities live on forever. The Manager and Hundred Heart lasting through milennia, the Pharaoh’s Daughters and the Cantigaster, Yesterday’s King and the Widow etc.
2. Equally, at least one of the deal makers stays near the Bazaar in the Fallen Cities.The Manager, The Duchess, The Widow.
3. Each fallen city, after it arrives, eventually establishes a colony across the Zee, which becomes the eventual haven as the new city arrives. The obvious one being Polythreme. But though I’m trying to avoid mention of Sunless Sea content it is nevertheless existent, and the New Khanate is mentioned in Fallen London. And of course London itself has Port Carnelian.
But you might say. There are hols in these patterns. You’re wrong. I disagree. There are gaps. Which raise questions. Whom from the Third City actually traded it for the life of a loved one? Why is there no apparent terrible cost for Yesterday’s King if his was the life tat was saved? What terrible cost does the TraitorEmpress now understand and does it have anything to do with how quiet the Shuttered palace is? What colonies did the Second and Third cities build? Well we know one of the tomb colonies are ruled by three Mayan gods that are mentioned as walking amidst the denizens of the Neath to this day, but did they have any other colonies? The Iron Republic is the colony of Hell, the Presbyterate and mentions of a city with pillars suggests Prester John (legends of a mythical Christian kingdom beyond the Islamic world now assumed to be medieval Ethiopia, that was said to contain many magical things including the fountain of youth, which would grant immortality without Hesperidean Cider) and Iram of the Pillars respectively. Neither of these would fit colonies of any of the previous cities so maybe they were added for the flavour of the Neath being home to mythical places.
Maybe the Tomb Colonies were originally a colony of the Second or Third city but became a place for all frequently dead (tombs, obelisks and mummies being rather egyptian, and cities of the dead and mayan gods ruling a city of the dead being traces of the Third City). Maybe the Carnelian Coast or Elder Continent hide all that is left of the Second City Colonies. I don’t know.
The llast point is with the third city being, apparently, the only one with no one in London itself. What was the love story there? Was it the live of the twins? If so is one twin in London? Is this stuff we will find out in new stories?
The answer I have for all of these is I dunno. But hey in raising these questions to such august company maybe we can come up with some answers.
Also appologies for any spelling or other errors. Its 2 am and I did this all on my phone.
Great post for 2 am! Also, the price Victoria paid for Albert’s life is… well, Albert is changed. We just don’t know how.
Victoria is likely so picky because, well, she’s old!
The Traitor Empress’ Consort produces monstrous children, which hide in the Palace Cellars.
The colonies pattern don’t necessarily hold true. I’m not sure how it would serve the Bazaar’s or Masters’ interest to ensure a colony survives, whereas the deal, the cost, etc. are part of their modus operandi. That said, aren’t the Salt Lions Sphinges? Does anyone know the lore and whether that’s a remnant of the Second City? (Not necessarily a colony, but a zee-drifted component.)
The price paid for the Third City was a little different – it seems to have been immortality for the God Eaters, and with something different consumed than Cider (although I’m not clear that cider is the operative thing in the other cases either, since we have some players around who’ve been sipping from a firkin of the stuff for quite a while). In any case, this might be why the pattern was broken for the Third City… with eventual consequences. I suppose you could consider Xibalba their colony. And the Salt Lions were once part of the Second City, I believe? Some of the other Sunless Sea islands say they’re descended from former Polythremers, as well.
Xibalba being an underworld, I’d always assumed it existed in the Neath naturally. But come to think of it, the Xibalba myth might not be that old, in which case it could have developed after the Third was stolen. (I suspect the myth is too old; I could probably find out a good date, though we can’t assume Failbetter did super thorough research.)
I don’t know much about the Third, but it could be the cost was more lenient for the God Eaters, given that they saved the Masters’ cloaca.
Aren’t the players who drink cider immortal, i.e. they can never reach 8 Wounds as long as they have the cider? I realize this also applies to players with a bottle of laudanum, but long-term immortality isn’t easily reflected in the game’s time frame.
edited by TheThirdPolice on 9/9/2015
Well certainly something is offered that can go in a cup. Maybe Lacre for all I know. I would like to point out I’ve only just entered the University, so I’m not that far in the game. And I’ve barely touched on the Stealthy and Dangerous areas. My main is a Bohemian Academic.
As to the Colonies, it seems to be something the Cities do themselves. Port Carnelian doesn’t serve the Bazaar any good. Polythreme doesn’t. The Khanate is in open oposition of London. It just seems to be a pattern that all bar perhaps one have colonies that outlasted their City.
As to Albert I knew there were kids. Wierd kids. I painted a few of the more respectable ones recently.
And finally, the third city seems a bit odd. It was Mayan. Had five wells. But the best guess is a city that was in fact the Mayan Underworld, whereas FBG used real or mythological surface cities for each other one.
And as the duchess says, In the deeper mysteries of the Bazaar, always look to Love. Why, when every other city was bargained for the life of a loved one, was the Third City traded to three God Eaters? Doesn’t make sense to me. Which is why I go back to the previously mentioned tale of the Mayan Twins going into the Underworld or whatever it was. Brotherly love can be strong. Particularly between twins. Or since there are three god eaters, maybe a love triangle between the twins and another? Someone mentioned one twin was the Jaguar Man and the other was Snake Hands. Idk. Just seems like there was a lot of talk as to the First City but not much about the Third City which doesn’t add up.
Again maybe we’ll learn this in future updates.
Clarification. I’m not saying it’s not Xibalba, but at the same time I feel that the third most of all is the one we know least about. As mentioned in my first post, as far as I’m aware, no player has yet met any citizens of the Third City. We have met people (usually those who were involved in the Fall) of the other cities.
Doesn’t really prove anything, and there is no demonstrable connection, but I will put it out there to back up the Uruk/Gilgamesh theory. ‘Dilmun’ in the Dilmun Club is where Gilgamesh made his journey for immortality. Now, I know that the Club are looking for the same thing and that there is supposed to be a garden and everything, but just the fact that it’s named Dilmun and not Eden feels significant. And, if I remember my lore correctly, the Garden in-game is at the foot of the Mountain, a shard of which was placed in the Hundreds.
Of course, someone might have pointed all of this out earlier. This is a very long thread and the forum’s search tools are wanting.