Thank Eaten.
[li]
I think Eyeless Skulls are a little too rare for their own good. I got the cave of Nadir route. And I’ve been doing Blue Heaven runs until I got Archaeology 5. And I still don’t have a single skull.
Mind you, the game never really explains what a skull is, or why you would need it for the expedition. The only reason I know that they drop in Blue Heaven, is the Wiki. Otherwise I would be completely stumped on where to get them. As it is, I lost a sizeable amount of resources and actions with nothing to show for it as a result.
You can try hunting for curios, Fhoenix. Apparently, there’s a rare success there that will give you a skull. You’ll also get some opportunities to rejuvenate your stores of whispered secrets if you were using them.
What is “hunting for curios”? I now remember this option mentioned a couple of times on the forum, but where exactly is this Storylet?
There’s two rare successes among the Hunting for Curio options, in fact. Using it does involve a steady increase in Nightmares, though.
Edited to add: It’s more properly "Seeking Curios and Secrets in the Forgotten Quarter" - the bottom-most option in the Forgotten Quarter when you don’t have an expedition going.
edited by Sir Frederick Tanah-Chook on 7/7/2013
Below: a reply to some of Alexis’s points, somewhat spoily, leavened with bad jokes and probably of little interest to anyone else (or indeed, perhaps, to him).
[spoiler][quote=Alexis Kennedy][color=#009900]The Forgotten Quarter in its new form is designed to cater for players across a very wide range of stats. You could get into the Nadir with Watchful as low as 60 - it would take a lot of persistence and luck, but it’s possible. Down in the 40-70 range, stat damage means a lot more.[/color][/quote]A couple of thoughts. First, the potential profits also mean a lot more to players with low stats. One trip can easily pay for some top tier footwear, when a normal storylet would only bring in ~60p per action. Second, few (if any) players will reach the Nadir with Watchful anywhere near that low. Here’s a list of what they’d have to do:
[ul][li]Find an Eyeless Skull. That’s hard, but they could be lucky, right?
[/li][li]Raise Intimate with a Secular Missionary to ten through opportunity cards. This took me a long time, playing the cards whenever they came up. My stats rose a lot from other things, in the meantime. Of course, they could do nothing but discard cards until the right ones came up. Not that that would be perverse, or anything.
[/li][li]Find enough cash, Skulls, or connections to acquire the expensive thingamy needed to get in. I reckon that’s 800-1400 stat change points. But maybe they have a lot of Fate?
[/li][li]Fund and successfully undertake at least seven Expeditions to get Archaeologist to five. That’s a lot of grinding for supplies, and a load of Watchful challenges. Especially since, by hypothesis, their Watchful is really low.[/li][li]Complete a super hard Expedition with only 100 supplies. I did a back-of-the-envelope thing, and concluded that our precocious hero is basically doomed, unless they have a huge stockpile of Second Chances. Which you normally get by doing stuff that raises your Watchful. But you don’t have to. And so help me, this player won’t. They’ll get them through opportunity cards. It’ll pass the time while they get to know the Missionary.
[/li][/ul]If you find this person, I hope you’ll make them test all your games. On the above evidence, I doubt they’re that attached to their stats. I think far more players will be upset about the (frankly, much worse) consequences of failing the Expedition. Maybe you should enforce the Watchful 100 thing? There’s plenty of other stuff to do in the Forgotten Quarter.
[quote=Alexis Kennedy][color=#009900]Anywhere that we don’t pad the sharp edges of the game, some players bash their heads on those sharp edges until they’re bloody, and guess who they blame? Even when we’ve put up a warning notice? I still get emails complaining about the penalties on the Mr Eaten storyline, although I could hardly have made the warnings clearer unless I went round and tattooed them on every participating player. I know I will already get emails from players demanding I reset their stats because they didn’t realise what would happen in the Nadir.[/color][/quote]Sadly, even the existing penalties will alienate that constituency, since after all they’re not complaining because they can’t read, but because their conception of a game is infected by the ‘ego-stroking’ behavioural conditioning beloved of larger developers. If they pull the lever, they should get a treat, so dammit, Alexis, why did you come over and hit them with a stick? Even though you warned them? Do you like punishing your customers, you freak?
They won’t forgive you, just because you use a smaller stick.
[quote=Alexis Kennedy][color=#009900]The Nadir works best unspoiled. If I made the penalties more severe, there would be more people over the next two years saying ‘for God’s sake don’t spend more than x actions in there, you’ll suffer y effect’ and fewer people saying ‘ooh you’ve got a treat in store, but go carefully.’[/color][/quote]Hmm. I agree Nadir spoilers are bad. But people are going to say the former thing already, because of the double penalty for hitting Irrigo 10. ‘Always leave at Irrigo 9, unless you can get [the very expensive thing] with your next action.’ The way to prevent that is not to use low penalties, but to make them incremental so there’s no trivially optimal strategy.
[quote=Alexis Kennedy][color=#009900]And the biggest consideration. Broadly speaking, quality effects … (ii) … provide a sense of substance to the fiction. The Nadir stat change is more (ii) than (i). it provides a rationale for the limit on return, and an indication of what might happen if you hung around. Pearl diving is a good analogy: the intention is to force you return to the surface, not choose between riches and potential dismemberment at every point. (I wanted to add options to make the card drawing more strategic, and I wanted to allow long-shot risks on later, more informed, visits to the Cave, but the FQ is already an enormous content release and we were just out of time…)[/color][/quote]I also see this as a (ii). At the moment, the mechanics do everything you say. They justify the time limit, and communicate something about the nature of the place, and its hazards. I like this, but I think they can do more.
My unspoiled first visit was awesome. It also wasn’t the experience you intended, because it was four times as long. I think I saw most of the content. On reflection, I can see the benefit of enforcing a shorter visit. I have a familiarity with the place that should have taken weeks; it’s now correspondingly less marvellous, less strange. But all the while, I was in a state of massing dread at the price to be exacted. That’s a rare example in Fallen London of an actually interesting gameplay choice, but I think it also has a narrative value consonant with the nature of the story and the place; the Firebrand and the Missionary and February and you are all seeking so hard for this terribly dangerous place, because there’s something there, though you’re not quite sure what, that maybe you want and maybe can use…
Next week, and the week after, I’ll go back and lose a level of each primary stat. Or two, for something very melancholy. That thing I just tried to describe has gotten lost, along with the difficult gameplay choice.
Here’s my suggestion:
[ul][li]Remove the extra penalty from the Irrigo 10 auto-fire storylet, so we don’t go around telling everyone to leave at Irrigo 9.
[/li][li]Add an option to that storylet which allows the player to stay in the Cave. Have it unlock with whatever you consider sufficiently high Watchful. Kick the player out when they hit Irrigo 20. Warn of escalating consequences.[/li][li]When the player leaves, reduce their stats by, say, Irrigo squared. That conveniently gives the present penalty for Irrigo 10. It avoids sharp cut-offs which make gameplay choices easy. It allows players to hurt themselves pretty badly (up to eight stat points), but only if their stats are high enough and they disregard clear warnings. It’s not high enough for players to exhaust the mysteries of the Cave, and it fits the atmosphere of the place. It creates interesting choices. It will probably also do your laundry and reply to bug reports.
[/li][/ul][/spoiler]Also, a request and a suggestion. Could you add an option to the Struggling Artist card to make him forget you, unlocked with 10 Irrigo? Only, you know, the whole thing was embarrassing and long ago and I changed addresses eight times without telling him… he still touches me for money.
The suggestion: add a Fate-locked option to change the choice you make when you leave. I’m sure some people would love to give you money for that.
edited by Flyte on 7/8/2013
[quote=Flyte]Below: a reply to some of Alexis’s points, somewhat spoily, leavened with bad jokes and probably of little interest to anyone else (or indeed, perhaps, to him).
[spoiler][quote=Alexis Kennedy][color=#009900]The Forgotten Quarter in its new form is designed to cater for players across a very wide range of stats. You could get into the Nadir with Watchful as low as 60 - it would take a lot of persistence and luck, but it’s possible. Down in the 40-70 range, stat damage means a lot more.[/color][/quote]A couple of thoughts. First, the potential profits also mean a lot more to players with low stats. One trip can easily pay for some top tier footwear, when a normal storylet would only bring in ~60p per action. Second, few (if any) players will reach the Nadir with Watchful anywhere near that low. Here’s a list of what they’d have to do:
[ul][li]Find an Eyeless Skull. That’s hard, but they could be lucky, right?
[/li][li]Raise Intimate with a Secular Missionary to ten through opportunity cards. This took me a long time, playing the cards whenever they came up. My stats rose a lot from other things, in the meantime. Of course, they could do nothing but discard cards until the right ones came up. Not that that would be perverse, or anything.
[/li][li]Find enough cash, Skulls, or connections to acquire the expensive thingamy needed to get in. I reckon that’s 800-1400 stat change points. But maybe they have a lot of Fate?
[/li][li]Fund and successfully undertake at least seven Expeditions to get Archaeologist to five. That’s a lot of grinding for supplies, and a load of Watchful challenges. Especially since, by hypothesis, their Watchful is really low.[/li][li]Complete a super hard Expedition with only 100 supplies. I did a back-of-the-envelope thing, and concluded that our precocious hero is basically doomed. Unless they have a huge stockpile of Second Chances. Which you normally get by doing stuff that raises your Watchful. But you don’t have to. And so help me, this player won’t. They can get them through opportunity cards. It will pass the time while they get to know the Missionary.
[/li][/ul]If you find this person, I hope you’ll make them test all your games. On the above evidence, I doubt they’re that attached to their stats. I think far more players will be upset about the (frankly, much worse) consequences of failing the Expedition. Maybe you should enforce the Watchful 100 thing? There’s plenty of other stuff to do in the Forgotten Quarter, anyway.
[quote=Alexis Kennedy][color=#009900]Anywhere that we don’t pad the sharp edges of the game, some players bash their heads on those sharp edges until they’re bloody, and guess who they blame? Even when we’ve put up a warning notice? I still get emails complaining about the penalties on the Mr Eaten storyline, although I could hardly have made the warnings clearer unless I went round and tattooed them on every participating player. I know I will already get emails from players demanding I reset their stats because they didn’t realise what would happen in the Nadir.[/color][/quote]Sadly, even the existing penalties will alienate that constituency, since after all they’re not complaining because they can’t read, but because their conception of a game is infected by the ‘ego-stroking’ behavioural conditioning beloved of larger developers. If they pull the lever, they should get a treat, so dammit, Alexis, why did you come over and hit them with a stick? Even though you warned them? Do you like punishing your customers, you freak?
They won’t forgive you, just because you use a smaller stick.
[quote=Alexis Kennedy][color=#009900]The Nadir works best unspoiled. If I made the penalties more severe, there would be more people over the next two years saying ‘for God’s sake don’t spend more than x actions in there, you’ll suffer y effect’ and fewer people saying ‘ooh you’ve got a treat in store, but go carefully.’[/color][/quote]Hmm. I agree Nadir spoilers are bad. But people are going to say the former thing already, because of the double penalty for hitting Irrigo 10. ‘Always leave at Irrigo 9, unless you can get [the very expensive thing] with your next action.’ The way to prevent that is not to use low penalties, but to make them incremental so there’s no trivially optimal strategy.
[quote=Alexis Kennedy][color=#009900]And the biggest consideration. Broadly speaking, quality effects … (ii) … provide a sense of substance to the fiction. The Nadir stat change is more (ii) than (i). it provides a rationale for the limit on return, and an indication of what might happen if you hung around. Pearl diving is a good analogy: the intention is to force you return to the surface, not choose between riches and potential dismemberment at every point. (I wanted to add options to make the card drawing more strategic, and I wanted to allow long-shot risks on later, more informed, visits to the Cave, but the FQ is already an enormous content release and we were just out of time…)[/color][/quote]I also see this as a (ii). At the moment, the mechanics do everything you say. They justify the time limit, and communicate something about the nature of the place, and its hazards. I like this, but I think they can do more.
My unspoiled first visit was awesome. It also wasn’t the experience you intended, because it was four times as long. I think I saw most of the content. On reflection, I can see the benefit of enforcing a shorter visit. I have a familiarity with the place that should have taken weeks; it’s now correspondingly less marvellous, less strange. But all the while, I was in a state of massing dread at the price to be exacted. That’s a rare example in Fallen London of an actually interesting gameplay choice, but I think it also has a narrative value consonant with the nature of the story and the place; the Firebrand and the Missionary and February and you are all seeking so hard for this terribly dangerous place, because there’s something there, though you’re not quite sure what, that maybe you want and maybe can use…
Next week, and the week after, I’ll go back and lose a level of each primary stat. Or two, for something very melancholy. That thing I just tried to describe has gotten lost, along with the difficult gameplay choice.
Here’s my suggestion:
[ul][li]Remove the extra penalty from the Irrigo 10 auto-fire storylet, so we don’t go around telling everyone to leave at Irrigo 9.
[/li][li]Add an option to that storylet which allows the player to stay in the Cave. Have it unlock with whatever you consider sufficiently high Watchful. Kick the player out when they hit Irrigo 20. Warn of escalating consequences.[/li][li]When the player leaves, reduce their stats by, say, Irrigo squared. That conveniently gives the present penalty for Irrigo 10. It avoids sharp cut-offs which make gameplay choices easy. It allows players to hurt themselves pretty badly (up to eight stat points), but only if their stats are high enough and they disregard clear warnings. It’s not high enough for players to exhaust the mysteries of the Cave, and it fits the atmosphere of the place. It creates interesting choices. It will probably also do your laundry and reply to bug reports.
[/li][/ul][/spoiler]Also, a request and a suggestion. Could you add an option to the Struggling Artist card to make him forget you, unlocked with 10 Irrigo? Only, you know, the whole thing was embarrassing and long ago and I changed addresses eight times without telling him… he still touches me for money.
The suggestion: add a Fate-locked option to change the choice you make when you leave. I’m sure some people would love to give you money for that.[/quote]
…I’d probably take that option, as long as it wasn’t too expensive- especially if you could get both the missionary and the firebrand with it. (even if not, i’d probably still take it but yeah)
[li][/li][li]
edited by Flapdragon on 7/7/2013
I’m starting to wonder if this is Fallen London’s answer to raiding, and the third purpose of Irrigo is a raid lockout. Spoiler tagged some silly speculation, for the 1% chance that it’s actually meaningful: (It’s not even based on anything found in the Cave- I’m still waiting on the Firebrand to warm up to me)
"The Cave of the Nadir" anagrams to "Raid event: Hatch foe." That’s the point of raids, after all- spawn the big boss to get the big loot. :)
[li][/li][li]
edited by Aspeon on 7/8/2013
[spoiler][quote=Flyte]A couple of thoughts. First, the potential profits also mean a lot more to players with low stats. One trip can easily pay for some top tier footwear, when a normal storylet would only bring in ~60p per action. Second, few (if any) players will reach the Nadir with Watchful anywhere near that low. Here’s a list of what they’d have to do:
[ul][li]Find an Eyeless Skull. That’s hard, but they could be lucky, right?[/li][li]Raise Intimate with a Secular Missionary to ten through opportunity cards. This took me a long time, playing the cards whenever they came up. My stats rose a lot from other things, in the meantime. Of course, they could do nothing but discard cards until the right ones came up. Not that that would be perverse, or anything.[/li][li]Find enough cash, Skulls, or connections to acquire the expensive thingamy needed to get in. I reckon that’s 800-1400 stat change points. But maybe they have a lot of Fate?
[/li][li]Fund and successfully undertake at least seven Expeditions to get Archaeologist to five. That’s a lot of grinding for supplies, and a load of Watchful challenges. Especially since, by hypothesis, their Watchful is really low.[/li][li]Complete a super hard Expedition with only 100 supplies. I did a back-of-the-envelope thing, and concluded that our precocious hero is basically doomed, unless they have a huge stockpile of Second Chances. Which you normally get by doing stuff that raises your Watchful. But you don’t have to. And so help me, this player won’t. They’ll get them through opportunity cards. It’ll pass the time while they get to know the Missionary.
[/li][/ul]If you find this person, I hope you’ll make them test all your games. On the above evidence, I doubt they’re that attached to their stats. I think far more players will be upset about the (frankly, much worse) consequences of failing the Expedition. Maybe you should enforce the Watchful 100 thing? There’s plenty of other stuff to do in the Forgotten Quarter.[/quote]
Currently, my Watchful is 80, and if these skull cards keep showing up, it shall soon be lower. I would be torn if there were a sudden requirement of 100 to get into the Cave I am currently working so hard to find entrance to. In fact, it’s somewhat of a challenge to myself to do it this way.
[ul][li]Two Eyeless Skulls in two expeditions into the Shrine. Check.[/li][li]Done and done, long ago. I played the cards as they appeared, never just sitting at a certain stat level waiting for them.[/li][li]The Cinder is only 15 fate, is it not? That’s not a lot, and I intend to buy one that way. After all, to quote the Nex page, 15 nex is less than "the price of a fancy latte". [/li][li]There are very few occasions I sell things instead of using them, and as it stands I have lots of items and 215 echoes I can turn into supplies if need be.[/li][li]The Church is my highest connection (124), and it got that way via Connections cards. Mainly, the one vs The Great Game. The one that nets you one of every Second Chance per card.
[/li][/ul]Well, what can I say? You’ve found me.
[/spoiler]
P.S. If anyone knows good places to raise Echos without raising stats, PM me? Since the Acquaintances are now cards, and at the moment I can’t get into the House of Chimes, I’m out of ideas.
It’s 50 Nex.
Hm, are there any high level persuasive tasks out there that I can use to raise my stats back to full after taking so much skull and irrigo damage (at least 850CP of damage to persuasive alone)? Its been so long since my stats were as low as 148 that I’ve forgotten if there’s anything challenging for persuasive at that level.
I’m trying to remember back, what was the natural progression of things. Where was I when that was my stat, what content was difficult, where did I go? I poked around mahogany hall and even the veilgarden short stories, but everything seems to be more or less straightforward. I’ve got ideas for the other highway stats… but I can’t think of an equivalent high risk for persuasive. Perhaps something overzee?
If anyone has a few ideas as to what one would normally be doing at this old level, please send me a PM.
Edit: Thanks for the suggestions.
edited by NiteBrite on 7/8/2013
Nitebrite try The Foreign Office or a trip to Hunters Keep.
[quote=Saharan][spoiler]Currently, my Watchful is 80, and if these skull cards keep showing up, it shall soon be lower. I would be torn if there were a sudden requirement of 100 to get into the Cave I am currently working so hard to find entrance to. In fact, it’s somewhat of a challenge to myself to do it this way.
[ul][li]Two Eyeless Skulls in two expeditions into the Shrine. Check.[/li][li]Done and done, long ago. I played the cards as they appeared, never just sitting at a certain stat level waiting for them.[/li][li]The Cinder is only 15 fate, is it not? That’s not a lot, and I intend to buy one that way. After all, to quote the Nex page, 15 nex is less than "the price of a fancy latte". [/li][li]There are very few occasions I sell things instead of using them, and as it stands I have lots of items and 215 echoes I can turn into supplies if need be.[/li][li]The Church is my highest connection (124), and it got that way via Connections cards. Mainly, the one vs The Great Game. The one that nets you one of every Second Chance per card.
[/li][/ul]Well, what can I say? You’ve found me.[/spoiler]
P.S. If anyone knows good places to raise Echos without raising stats, PM me? Since the Acquaintances are now cards, and at the moment I can’t get into the House of Chimes, I’m out of ideas.[/quote]Okay, this is remarkable… a question. Would you actually mind a heavier Irrigo penalty? You’re evidently expending a certain amount of effort to keep your stats like that.
Edit: for stat-free grinding, maybe the Screaming Map?
edited by Flyte on 7/8/2013
Huh. Just left the Cave.
[spoiler]I was kicked out at 10; I didn’t want to leave earlier because it felt like I’d got to a lot of trouble to get down there and I’d not really explored very much. I think I was expecting something more like one of the Unterzee destinations, not ~10 actions before I had to leave. They were good actions, nicely creepy, but just not very many of them.
I suppose I’ll go back because, hey, new content, completist, but I’m not very excited about it: the time and cost of getting there seem disproportionate to the time you receive (probably the cost too, honestly, but I have lots of money, I’m not concerned about that but about the relative paucity of the experience).
I seem to be an outlier in this regard, which is fine, but I wanted to register my opinion because of that. [/spoiler]
Edit: foolishly, I did not realize that I’d opened a route and could return without going through the whole rigamarole again, in the appropriate time. Well, that does change things.
edited by an_ocelot on 7/10/2013
Have been in. Interesting but more for the Lore than any of the items. Definitely want to go back in though.
Edited to remove spoiler text, have to look up how to tag it.
Both myself and an alt have just done the Cave. Nice lore, almost tempts me to spend out Nex on the Long Lost Daughter just to find out what I could have discovered. I could have done with some more time as there were cards I did not play from the opportunity deck. Not sure what criteria there are for the Irrigo increase on some cards - there was one that added 3 Irrigo and some gave 2. So it isn’t even 10 actions in the cave.
[li]edited by circe on 7/8/2013[/li][li]
edited by circe on 7/8/2013[/li][li]
edited by circe on 7/8/2013
Third skull in my 4th visit to the shrine! At this rate, I won’t have to fate-buy a cinder after all. I probably still will, though.
[quote=Flyte]Okay, this is remarkable… a question. Would you actually mind a heavier Irrigo penalty? You’re evidently expending a certain amount of effort to keep your stats like that.[/quote] A heavier Irrigo penalty (and perhaps staying in past 10) would be somewhat welcome, but not because I enjoy having low stats. In actuality, I first sought the skulls because I had levelled my stats up too fast, and had missed the conclusion of the Comtessa storyline. I’ll admit that there’s a storyline I’m grinding a long way through that has me leaving my Dangerous hovering right below 70, but other than those two I’m not purposely keeping my stats low.
Is there any clear answer to whether skulls drop more frequently from expeditions or from other quarter related activities?[li]
I have to say I really like the concept of Nadir. Trading stats for profit. In a way, its like trading in connections for profit. Connections are useful to a point, item conversions, opportunity cards, gambits, but after a while its just gravy. No challenge out there really requires you have 500 connected society. You could keep the high connections for story flavor sure, but if that’s not your cup of tea why not trade some of your surplus in for mad cash?
Stats work similarly. At maxed stats, most challenges will have been straightforward for you even without gear for a while. The excess stats are like excess connections. Money waiting to be had for selling something that’s not really doing all that much for you in game. Nadir is the first step in making this dream of stats for cash a reality. You don’t want to overdo it, obviously. You do need some stats to get by and do the basics. But its not a bad option to have when you are looking to get rich quick in fallen london.
Quick question-are there any irrigo-infused gloves you can acquire? I have what almost ammounts to a full irrigo set(sans gloves and i’m not sure which of 2 pets would be the irrigo one…henchman is a wee bit suspicious) and i can’t help but wonder what would happen if you collected it all.
I’m not sure… but I know that some options don’t appear if you don’t have the relevant item. You could try bringing one of every available glove and having a poke around!