Here’s a wild guess, most likely completely out of understanding for Victorian Londoners, but what if the Liberation is a white hole/ are white holes? This white hole leads to a dimension of opposites, including that of Light, thus creating these sable Suns that release darkness, and a lack of Law. These are the holes left behind by the Liberation, that release strange whispers in Sunless Skies.
Massive leap, but it would be interesting.
I don’t think the Sable Sun releases darkness or a lack of law or anything else. All we know is that it’s black and squirmy.
Plus its appearance in Sunless Sea was probably some sort of dream or vision, so we don’t know that it actually looks like that in reality.
I personally consider the Iron Republic a rather encouraging experiment. It also suggests that Laws can exist independent of the Judgements (who themselves don’t seem a particularly pleasant bunch to entrust your eternal fate to), and can be forged through various means, provided you have the know-how to alter natural law. (Though one does have to question just how "natural" it is to have your very existence arbited by the caprices of large shiny objects, but I digress…)
I also think a very interesting question is just what did June build? It sounds a bit like an experiment with some kind of Dawn Machine, from teasers in The Calendar Code. Which also suggests that the Council and the Revolutionaries, broadly speaking, are less interested in the complete abolition of natural order than in improving the determinism of humanity by clipping a few links off the Great Chain.
And Sunless Skies seems to be touching on the Judgements again, though I don’t want to begin giving out spoilers on that yet for anyone awaiting the full release…
Current theory is that June was the original architect of the Dawn Machine. Its goals do nominally align with the Liberation, after all - they both want to destroy the Great Chain and end the laws of the Judgements. Maybe June just didn’t think it might want to replace those laws with its own.
[spoiler]Does the Liberation really quite necessarily entail the end of all law? I’m under the impression that light of Neathy colours will still exist – and Parabola isn’t quite lawless enough to have no rhyme or reason to it. I’ve come to view it more as a deposition of the Judgments (and, having seen them for what they are, I’m entirely in favour, chaos afterwards be damned) in favour of laws put in place by beings far less powerful. The Fingerkings are powerful, but not nearly so much so as the Judgments.
Besides, with the Judgments’ laws gone, nobody will be able to stop enterprising creatures further down the Chain from creating new laws. There will still be dragons to enforce them once made, I imagine. Or does any destiny mention the death of all dragons?[/spoiler]
I believe the Liberation that takes place in the Destiny is a more localized phenomenon. A test case, if you will, before trying to scale up. As a result, there probably weren’t any dragons around to be affected, so it’s an open question of what they’d do in a post-Liberation environment
The Liberation of the Night is actually the only truly ‘good’ ambition/destiny in the game(s).
Some of the strangely anti-revolutionary people in this thread talk about the whole ‘imposing the revolution upon the unwilling’. But the fact is: without the revolution, we will continue to be opressed by the Judgements. So, if someone is against the revolution, he is knowingly or unknowingly willing us to be opressed. So, he is an opressor. And such items must be remooved, as the revolutionary doctrine says. Nothing ‘inconsistant’ here.
Some other people are all fussing about the whole ‘‘people will angry the other species’’. But the fact is: all species are born out of interspecies warfare, and Life itself evolves not only by in-species killing-off of the weak, but by destroying whole species as well. If somebody puts other species interests before human interests- he is a traitor and a dim person, who stands by other species killing each other/humans, but hates humans for killing other species. Not speaking about the fact that the whole moral thing evolved to protect Man, not ‘Nature’, as did ‘kindness/mercy’- it was made by ‘evolution’ to protect man from man, and to make the cooperate. The whole ‘we must protect other species’ thing is a bug, made by people misunderstanding kindness, morals, and nature, and bu people anthropomorphising(a widespread psychic bug) other species(and inanimate objects)-t.e. subconsiously believing them to be human. There is no ‘all life must be protected’. Life is just a name of some of the thermodynamical systems, and the only life that is holy- is the human life. Because we, humans, want to live above all else(and have pity for other humans- an evolutionary measure), and so we enforce the morals.
The Liberation of the Night gives people:
Which are all pretty cool things.
And all that speaking about the ‘real motives’ of the calendar counsil, and the ‘people killing each other in the streets’ is just demagogy- the fact that someone is misusing the Liberation does not proove that the Liberation itself is ‘bad’.
P.c. I predict that some people will hate me for my a bit ‘straightforward’ and ‘rude’ post, and the lots of mistakes in the text… but I actually don’t care- in the spirit of the anarchy, equality,freedom of speech and deed(not breaking the NAP)
edited by Autonomous on 2/6/2018
edited by Autonomous on 2/6/2018
I would go into detail about why I deeply disagree with that philosophy, and why i feel that that’s a misconception when it comes to the mechanics of evolution, but I’ll just leave it at this:
The Liberation of Night is not an anarchic cause. There is a hierarchy to it. Humans are not doing this all on their own. There are beings in this universe, very scary beings, that would like to see light and law extinguished for their own reasons.
edited by Addis Rook on 2/6/2018
Not really related to the Liberation, but. Protecting other life is protecting human life. Humans are part of an ecosystem, and pillaging that ecosystem for short-term human gain is a great way to destabilize it in ways that significantly harm humans.
[quote=Autonomous]The Liberation of the Night gives people:
Which are all pretty cool things.
And all that speaking about the ‘real motives’ of the calendar counsil, and the ‘people killing each other in the streets’ is just demagogy- the fact that someone is misusing the Liberation does not proove that the Liberation itself is ‘bad’.[/quote]
So, what does the Liberation give people? Let’s check the Liberation destinies.
The real motives of the Calendar Council seem pretty important to me, considering they’re the ones who are working to implement the Liberation. If they want something other than they say, they’re not "misusing" the Liberation, they’re misleading people as to what the Liberation is. And the effects of the Liberation are also important. If people kill each other as a result of the Liberation, they’re not misusing anything - the Liberation is cause and that’s an effect.
Plus as Addis Rook says, people aren’t really using the Liberation, mis- or otherwise. The Liberation is using them.
Be careful, you two. You ought to know that you can’t get the minions to do the work if they know what will happen to them if they succeed. First rule of having minions, after all. Nobody would have followed Stalin if they’d known at the outset it meant being robbed, oppressed, and butchered.
Everything is might makes right, no matter what we might like to think (though with luck, those with might have a bit more wisdom than previous ones). The difference is stability; the less fighting going on, the less the common person suffers from it.
The Liberation is literally the old definition of “revolution”. IE, going in a big circle, right back to where you were before. It’s just that the elites have been shuffled out for new elites. This is still valuable to some degree but it’s preferably done through methods that don’t encourage bloodshed or instability. However, the Judgements leave no such avenues to unseat them; bloodshed is the ONLY way to replace the elites. And that sucks for everyone.
Might makes right, but I like to think we’ll eventually end up with mighty ones who don’t like that state of affairs.
Might makes right and Liberation of the Night makes … most people dead. Optimatum is quite spot on.
My character isn’t in it for freedom or revolution. For her it’s all about the Masters. A crazed obsession with them, really. They must be made to pay for their crimes. Whatever the cost.
[i][b]Fiat justitia ruat cælum.
[/b][/i]As long as they get taken down, she doesn’t care what happens after that.
While I am playing someone who is for the Liberation of Night to the core, unlike how some of the people on this forum seem to, I do not take it seriously nor would I seriously argue for or against it: it isn’t a real thing. I just want to play a demented, bomb-throwing*, turn-of-the-century Anarchist stereotype in an online game. In real life I get really annoyed when there is a power cut for a few hours, so I don’t think I’d be cut out for the Liberation.
I do think it is quite a testament to the little world FB have created that people seem to take the LON so seriously, even to the point of sometimes getting snippy and snarky with one another over it. I say "seem" because you never really know how calm or agitated people on the internet really are, the online arena amplifies everything, emotionally speaking.[i][b]
[/b][/i]*Preferably one of those round black ones that fizz, and have the word "BOMB" painted on them.
[quote=Plynkes]My character isn’t in it for freedom or revolution. For her it’s all about the Masters. A crazed obsession with them, really. They must be made to pay for their crimes. Whatever the cost.
[i][b]Fiat justitia ruat cælum.
[/b][/i]As long as they get taken down, she doesn’t care what happens after that.
While I am playing someone who is for the Liberation of Night to the core, unlike how some of the people on this forum seem to, I do not take it seriously nor would I seriously argue for or against it: it isn’t a real thing. I just want to play a demented, bomb-throwing*, turn-of-the-century Anarchist stereotype in an online game. In real life I get really annoyed when there is a power cut for a few hours, so I don’t think I’d be cut out for the Liberation.
I do think it is quite a testament to the little world FB have created that people seem to take the LON so seriously, even to the point of sometimes getting snippy and snarky with one another over it. I say "seem" because you never really know how calm or agitated people on the internet really are, the online arena amplifies everything, emotionally speaking.[i][b]
[/b][/i]*Preferably one of those round black ones that fizz, and have the word "BOMB" painted on them.
[/quote]
All bombs of this type are hand crafted, quality acme corporation bombs.
Yes, though to adapt a bit from C. S. Lewis, it’s not so much that the world makes people take it seriously, but that it attracts and holds the attention of those who take such things seriously. A poorly done game or shallow narrative can’t hold that sort of attention for long; the player who tries just ends up frustrated and disappointed. One of the things that makes great art great is that you can keep coming back to it–keep reading the book, hearing the symphony, viewing the painting–and it rewards you for the attention. You keep finding something new, no matter how many times you’ve gone searching before. By that metric, Fallen London is great art indeed, and I don’t just mean that it’s still being added to. How many times have you gone through a storylet you’ve done a hundred times, and suddenly something clicks that you’d never noticed before?
(Somewhat off topic, but I figured it’s worth saying anyway.)
Would anyone really want a world without light and laws?
I think the whole LoN thing is like the first sin,men who want to challenge or be like gods will always fail because they where not meant to do that.
[quote=Nagaretsu]Would anyone really want a world without light and laws?
I think the whole LoN thing is like the first sin,men who want to challenge or be like gods will always fail because they were not meant to do that.[/quote]
(emphasis mine)
Well that’s kind of the point of abolishing laws. The universal divine law is we humans are meant to be eaten by beings higher on the chain and there’s supposedly nothing we can do about it. Fortunately, in the Neath the laws are more like guidelines, so we do stand a chance to amount to something more than canapés. Don’t want to be crab food? Turn off the lights. No Gods, no Masters.
[quote=Aniline][quote=Nagaretsu]Would anyone really want a world without light and laws?
I think the whole LoN thing is like the first sin,men who want to challenge or be like gods will always fail because they were not meant to do that.[/quote]
(emphasis mine)
Well that’s kind of the point of abolishing laws. The universal divine law is we humans are meant to be eaten by beings higher on the chain and there’s supposedly nothing we can do about it. Fortunately, in the Neath the laws are more like guidelines, so we do stand a chance to amount to something more than canapés. Don’t want to be crab food? Turn off the lights. No Gods, no Masters.[/quote]
If Fate decided our role I’m pretty sure that managing to undo that would lead to the end of the universe
>Not really related to the Liberation, but. Protecting other life is protecting human life. Humans are part of an ecosystem, and pillaging that ecosystem for short-term human gain is a great way to destabilize it in ways that significantly harm humans.
Actually, there is a difference between a strive to protect the ecosphere that is needed to support humans, and a need to protect the ecosphere only to…well, protect the ecosphere, and damn those humans, human interests are irrelevant, and the whole "humans need eceolgy" is just an excuse. For example, protecting the forests in order to preserve oxygen levels is pro-human. But protecting some almost extinct species of human-eating lion is anti-human, and the whole goal is to fight for nature against man, despite the fact that nature-lovers spin tales bout the whole "you kill the rabbid dog- and the Earth dies that day, its ECOSYSTEM, everything is connected. what the connection? it’s a secret". Also, you should take in consideration the fact that nature can and must be changed by Man, re-shaped into something more useful. Just as Man once learned how to create food, medicine, shelter, and stopped partially to rely on the evil and human-killing nature, Man must rebuild the ecosphere into a technosphere. And in the ‘Fallen London’ universe, the humans have such technologies.
>Lots of people die immediately, lots more die as time passes, and the source of immortality in the Neath is destroyed. Now granted, that’s not directly indicative of what would happen in the full Liberation, but destroying the Judgements doesn’t prevent people finding ways to keep killing each other.
Less Judgements- less laws- it makes harder for people to kill each other AND stops them dying from disease or aging(just compare the death from fighting in Fallen London and in the ‘Open Zee’, where the boatman’s grip is stronger for some reasons). The mortality rate drop and the immortality/stop of aging/disease compensates all those who died in the revolution, considering the fact that they would die all the same, if the Judgements remained.
>There’s certainly freedom, if we’re interpreting that in a "might equals right" way. But I wouldn’t call it a good thing that the strongest can do anything, at the expense of the weak.
If you are judging from the "london falls into dark" snippet- it was just revolutionary anarchy, not the order that was planned to be built by the revolution. All those who kill and rule by force- are not revolutionary by their nature, and are relicts of the pre-Revolution dark times
>There’s definitely no communism. The player and Captivating Princess do a great job of ruling others through power. Removing one set of laws doesn’t mean others can’t be put up in their place.To build communism you have to pass the stage of Socialism.
>The real motives of the Calendar Council seem pretty important to me, considering they’re the ones who are working to implement the Liberation. If they want something other than they say, they’re not "misusing" the Liberation, they’re misleading people as to what the Liberation is. And the effects of the Liberation are also important. If people kill each other as a result of the Liberation, they’re not misusing anything - the Liberation is cause and that’s an effect.
>Plus as Addis Rook says, people aren’t really using the Liberation, mis- or otherwise. The Liberation is using them.[/quote]
The whole thing about the dark star is a bit vague. There is no proof that the star is the leader of the revolution/the master of it. It can be an ally, a weapon(just like the dawn machine, minus the hypno-stuff), or even be totally unrelated to the revolution whatsoever, and attributed to it by mistake.
We all are living a single life, for a limited time, so, why not do something grand, something interesting, and something, that potentially might make you immortal? What do we have to loose? Nothing, everything we have, everything we love, will be gone for us when we die, and will be gone in real world, as the time of the planet, of the stars, of the cosmos and the Multiverse itself draws to an end.
edited by Autonomous on 4/17/2018