Hello.
Yesterday I was playing the game, and I think the new combat system is horrible. Really awful. I have been playing the game since the first beta, but I uninstalled the game after a couple of fights.
So here’s my thoughts on the new combat model so far:
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Getting two-shotted, and two-shotting enemies, is a problem, but that can be sorted with simple numbers balancing. Not overly concerned here.
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Your arcs can be hard to see in certain situations. You may want to improve their visibility.
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Seeing an enemy’s arcs would make for much more interesting gameplay. Right now dodging his arcs comes down to a lucky guess as to which weapons he has, and memorization later on. Not particularly fun IMO. Seeing how far along his solution is would also make for interesting gameplay.
I know this is a bit gamey, since there’s no good reason why you should have that information. Maybe tie it to having certain pieces of equipment? -
I get why you changed it so you don’t loose your firing solution progress when an enemy leaves your arc. But you went all the way to the other extreme, from infinite firing solution decay speed to zero firing solution decay. I think you should at least let us test gradual solution decay.
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Right now, I see little point in firing before reaching full firing solution, since the overall DPS will stay the same. Firing prematurely only opens you up to the risk of getting screwed by the RNG, with no commensurate reward that I can see.
Now, if there were firing solution decay, that would be a different story… am I correct in assuming this mechanic is a holdover from when you had instant, full decay? -
I feel Veils, aside from allowing for ambushes and sneaking past, should impact combat more directly - it did with the old model. The obvious choice would be to have it directly counteract Mirrors by slowing down firing solutions. If you implement gradual solution decay, it could also affect the speed of that decay (so should Mirrors, in that case).
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I think it might be worth our time to test a small "reloading-cooldown" before you can build a new firing solution after firing. This would encourage players to sweep through different firing arcs so they can fire with one gun while another is reloading.
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Alternatively, that cooldown could work in parallel with firing solutions: If an enemy enters an arc, firing solution will build as usual. It will remain at maximum even after firing and only decay if the enemy leaves the arc. However, the reloading cooldown means you still have to wait after each shot.
I think this would offer some interesting equipment choices. Do I want a gun that fires fast but takes long to aim, or vice versa? -
Question: Any reason why the arcs for ALL guns need to be static? Perhaps give some guns a mobile, but very narrow arc. If the "turning rate" of that arc is slow enough, it could still make for interesting gameplay. Turret turning could be both automatic or manual (mouse cursor). Play SPAZ for an example of how turrets can be fun. I’m not saying that this should be in Sunless Sea, but I do think it should be tried out.
edited by Beanstalker on 10/2/2014
Well, I have to admit, I didn’t actually get a new ship before steel rolled around, though I was fond of how things were going for my characters.
I decided to ‘start a new game’ when the patch came out and was surprised to find I still had my accommodations when I started. I then promptly got myself knocked off without a will, and so I got my wish for a new game.
Starting out on bottom, I went through about three characters before I hit my stride again. Now, between my rubbery chef, the tireless mechanic, and the reduced terror, I can pretty much go wherever I want on the map, though not without finding myself short on something on the way back to London. Granted, having Mount Palmerston and Demeaux Island spawn next to each other, without being clear on the opposite side of the map with nothing but empty waters around them helped in the early game.
As for the more exacting thoughts:
[ul][li]Although the map is random, the payment from the admiralty, and other jobs like sphinxstone runs, is not. The closest to an exploit I’ve had on the maps so far is that the salt lions spawned only two quadrants east and one south, which, in my opinion anyway, is very easily reached. Granted I haven’t done much with it for more interest in other jobs/quests which take place about four quads east and one quad to the north or south, so I suppose that’s a good sign for the design principles in general. All the same, perhaps something simple could be integrated into the map randomizing code. I know that certain creative industries (or perhaps that’s only a company by company basis?) are not allowed to use ideas that fans come up with so I’ll (or at least try to as I can’t seem to get them in preview) put this suggestion in spoiler tags just in case. [spoiler]The code could note the ‘default’ value of certain actions like port reports, and then measure the distance out from London using London as origin, say Shepard’s Wash is normally x=1 y=0, one east with and no quads north or south, but in this game it spawned x=2 y=-3, (2-1)+(|-3|-|0|)=4 so it would be scaled up by a set amount given the distance variance, whereas the Salt Steppes are normally x=3 y=-1, if it spawned at x=1 y=0, the variance would be (1-3)+(|0|-|-1|)=-3 and thus the reports values are scaled down accordingly. In a general form:
(x actual-x default)+(|y actual’s absolute value|-|y default’s absolute value|)=variance value.
y values being made absolute since x can only be positive with London as organ but y can be negative. As one last showing, Demeaux island default is x=1 y=1 but if it spawned x=1 y=-1 then this would happen:
(1-1)+(|-1|-|1|)=0, which works because while we have moved it, it is still an equivalent distance.
I’m fairly sure this ‘pseudocode’ works, but if you see something which introduces an incorrect assessment please let me know, I’m not infallible and would love to learn.[/spoiler]
[/li][li]I like where we are at with the combat, but like others have mentioned the maneuvering options needs a little work. When fighting zee creatures I throw it in full reverse and hope they can’t catch me, when fighting ships, I move to ram them and they run away ineffectually since no one has any aft weapons yet. This is a far more general suggestion without any formulas, but I’ll still spoil it for now until told I may do otherwise. This all said, if nothing changes from now to release and the expansions, I think I’d be fine with it overall.
[/li][li]Finally, I like that there can be large swaths of empty zee, I was against it when I first found it and it was all the same, but with the content update and unique characteristics to them, I’m ok with them, and find that they do help significantly with the new terror mechanics, forcing me to go an extra mile to civilization.
[/li][/ul]Overall, I’m very happy with this new version, and would recommend giving yourself a few hours to adjust to it.
Also, I’m new here, and would appreciate a little guidance in what suggestions are fine without spoiler tags if someone would tell me. Especially as the forum rules (that I found) only say "Use the [ spoiler] [/spoiler] tag (omit the first space) considerately." and don’t post whole storylets or fate locked actions.
*Removing 2nd and third suggestions as spoiler tag seems to only work once a post.
edited by Ace Jackson on 10/2/2014
edited by Ace Jackson on 10/2/2014
edited by Ace Jackson on 10/2/2014
Ah Steel, how we waited and how glorious you turned out to be. Terror, what terror? The new islands look breathtaking, but most of those marvelous places are issued with placeholders. The one you can enter pretty much made the day, feels like a little original Fallen London down in the sunless zea.
Combat is a lot of fun, but can be a little nervewracking for those without Carminus guns and 3 feet of steel between them and the beasties, interesstingly the one enemy who almost sinks me everytime isn’t the mighty fluke but that pesky little crab who moves faster than my freighter can turn and aim and crushes it against the next best shore.
Things to do:
-Auxillaryitems, please.
-Aftguns, pretty please.
-Keep up the great work.
[quote=censor]Hello.
Yesterday I was playing the game, and I think the new combat system is horrible. Really awful. I have been playing the game since the first beta, but I uninstalled the game after a couple of fights.[/quote]
Hmm… that’s a rather harsh criticism without making any points to back up your statement, I am not saying that you do not find combat horrible as it stands in Steel. But, perhaps you could provide more insight as to what about the new system you detest so much? Perhaps there is just something about how the new system works that hasn’t yet "clicked" with you?
It would be nice if the ship could ram the enemies…or add spikes so that organic creatures that attempt to ram you will suffer damage.
I’m using the steam version and I’m getting a blacked out "Need latest game version" where "Get new stories" should be. I thought steel was out, if I’m not mistaken. Is my game bugged, or…?[li]
edited by Atom Stratomsk on 10/3/2014
Well "Steel" is not yet an official update but more of a beta update, which is why it’s not in the "get new stories".
To quote from the newspage:[b]
How To Get It[/b] We’ve put it in an opt-in beta branch on Steam while we gather feedback and work out some of the kinks. We’ll migrate over everyone to the new branch in the next week or so. In the meantime, here’s how to get to it:
[ul][li]Right-click on SUNLESS SEA in your Steam Library.[/li][li]Choose Properties | Beta, and select ‘steel_beta’ from the dropdown.[/li][li]Close the properties panel, and you’ll have an update waiting.[/li][/ul] (If you can’t see steel_beta in the dropdown, restart Steam).
IMPORTANT! You can switch back to the old version – for a little while – but new games started under STEEL will not be compatible with the old version.
I am liking the feel of the redesigned combat so far. It makes the world feel more immersive and I actually have started to think about how I can approach enemies on screen. A very welcomed change over all. That said, however, there are a couple changes I could see to the new system that would make it feel more solid:
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Spotlight moves to focus on your current target. Essentially, if you have a beasty or pirate targeted within your attack range, it moves/rotates your light to follow them independent of which direction you are currently facing. This can be offset by decreasing the base time it takes to ready a shot, but it would make combat much less awkward with having to face them constantly (not always an easy feat to accomplish). This would make the combat feel a lot more like an actual sea battle as opposed to a game with rigid controls.
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Building on the above, I do think that combat should be extended slightly, though this may change once more monsters are added to the world map. As far as STEEL is right now, though, I do feel somewhat over powered in the early game, one-shotting most enemies and dealing decent damage to ones that should be more intimidating. Right now the only thing that offsets my damage is having to aim at the creatures, but with the above suggestion that would probably make it INCREDIBLY too easy to deal with attacks. I do realize the current state of the world map, and particularly the beasty spawns, are very much dialed back right now to allow accurate testing so I’ll have to come back to this after the update progresses.
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Outside of combat, the scavenging system is pretty nice, though can be a little awkward with the current animations. Pirate ships, for instance, are turned into floating crates, but you still have the option to send zailors with the ruined ship back to London. Perhaps for just those ships there could be a different model besides the boxes?
I just tried out one of the new aft-section guns introduced in the latest patch. I say "tried" but I was not able to fire it off at a small pirate ship outside London. Guns cannot be used on a target unless it is lit you see. The forward guns get our light beam but the aft guns have no such source of illumination so they are almost never ready to be fired (apparently). The update did not include the Iron bonus of the guns in question, so that will come later.
Perhaps if flares are re-introduced into combat we will have a way to illuminate enemies that are behind our ship but until then I am at a loss as to how to proceed.
And I agree with Asylum above me - new animations to portray loot would be ideal. Perhaps bloody chunks when we kill creatures like crabs and sharks or even scrapped up models of the enemies we fight (especially ships). It isn’t a priority but it is something I think would be nice to consider in future updates.
edited by Owen Wulf on 10/3/2014
Liking the new combat system q a lot, feels more immersive when you’re fleeing at top speed from the horrifying murderbeast Lifebergs who appear from off-screen torquing straight for your horribly vulnerable skin. As opposed to before when a static image confronted you implacably.
As of the moment observations cannot be gathered, rendering the victory options requiring them temporarily inaccessible, and placeholder beasts can completely wreck you, as you have no way of automatically escaping them.
I am assuming, Torpedos/Cannons/Flensing options will be added at some point, but I guess we’ll see how things play out.
Well, they kind of are here already, weapons with the harpoons / Flensing quality deal more damage to creatures of the zee then ships, I presume that torpedo based weapons also currently deal more to the ships then the zee creatures. As for cannons, I don’t remember anyone ever finding something to distinguish them from the default value of armament under either pre-steel or post-steel conditions.
Is the Steel Feedback forum only for reporting on the newly installed combat beta or is it now for all other matters in the game post-Emerald?
edited by Owen Wulf on 10/4/2014
[quote=Owen Wulf]Is the Steel Feedback forum only for reporting on the newly installed combat beta or is it now for all other matters in the game post-Emerald?
edited by Owen Wulf on 10/4/2014[/quote]
I kind of meant the thread to be about impressions, likes, dislikes, suggestions etc relating to the beta Steel update and the official Steel update later on, but there no rules made of steel here.
Well, it seems like you can beat just about any actual ship just by charging straight at them and making the AI turn around. I also notice that the AI ships are significantly more maneuverable than my ship is. I think a slight increase in maneuverability / decrease in turning radius might be in order. ]Edit: after more play I think this is a significantly bigger issue than I did at first. I’d really like to see the AI ships have turning radius comparable to ours (and a corresponding need to turn earlier, etc.) or give our ships more turn rate, or something. Their ability to turn on a dime really over-simplifies combat all around).
I hadn’t really played since they randomized the terrain, so that adds an element of challenge. I wish that incomplete islands would always spawn further away but I guess that’s silly to code for.
Do the various lamps give any variety to your illumination radius? It would be neat if they varied in arc length and radius.
I feel like the Deck guns should be more of a broadside type thing with less of a forward radius, and maybe come in pairs (left and right sides. Make forward and aft guns for chasing and running away, and force deck gun battles into side to side.
Also be good to have a "Boarding!" option when you’re very close to enemy ships, to let your crew just straight up battle the enemy crew.
Also would be good to have a "Launch Boats!" option. Send out crew in boats to attack the target. Think like whaling ships or boarders in away boats. Once out they’d auto attack to melee range and you’d lose control. Could pick them up once combat ends.[li]
There is a bug where if you run away from a fight it never actually ends – you stay in "combat mode" till you relog. This is a problem because it means that things won’t trigger (like, for example, Desperate Measures).
edited by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy on 10/5/2014
Just wondering: why has Alexis not updated the Announcements page on these forums?
Toyed around with combat. So these are my first impressions.
-Big improvement overall from the combat card game. Combat isn’t an equation you work out now to get the most loot out of a given run now.
-It’s had the basic effect of returning combat to the old first iteration, in that damage is more likely to happen than not. While that’s good so combat has bite again, it’s severely dented money making. Using a frigate and best guns, it’s still chancy whether you can kill a pirate steamer without taking damage.
-Avoiding being struck while attempting to fire on your opponent seems difficult to nigh impossible.
-Starboard and port guns are needed to complete the simulation. It would also add a good place to make trade offs for different kinds of equipment.
- Armor plating would be a nice item to equip, to reduce the damage you take from shots (in lieu of other items like port or starboard guns. There’s all sorts of fun trade offs you could work into it.
-Boarding actions, that kill crew instead of hull, would be pretty freakin’ sweet.
-The reduced terror is greatly appreciated. I’d prefer it stay at this level rather than becoming more aggressive. People are always discounting the terror from storylets in their calculations and I think it’s enough to push terror to the point where it’s something to be afraid of. Too high a passive terror really impinges on exploration, which I think is a lot more fun than running profit routes to one day have enough money to eat the terror costs.
Overall, I like. Combat is approaching that naval combat simulation level I thought the game always needed. Just needs tweaking to bring it into a fair alignment.
edited by Nenjin on 10/6/2014
One bug/exploit with the combat system is that, if you sail directly towards another SHIP (not crab or beastie), the ship will turn around and let you chase it and blast it up it’s arse. I’ve used these tactics to defeat Khanian War Triremes and all other ships I’ve come across as well. Ship tactics must be updated to fix this.
Perhaps it would be worthwhile to have a "boarding" pop-out minigame, following the lines of the old combat. So if people preferred the old combat they could just charge and ram, or if they liked the new combat, they could try to stay at a distance and fire. Combine both systems.[li]
edited by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy on 10/6/2014
I believe the tactic of boarding wasn’t really a part of naval warfare by the time steamships were par for the course. Boarding a fully manned enemy ship is a bloody and messy affair, and a huge risk. I’m pretty sure that steamships were also produced quickly enough that the rewards of such a tactic (a captured ship) did not justify the costs in lives lost. Better to sink a ship and move on I would think. The game already allows us to try and salvage a defeated ship for a bounty - after the crew has been dealt with of course.
edited by Owen Wulf on 10/6/2014