September ES: Where You and I Must Go

Fallen London
141

[color=#ff9900]First, what Fred said. If the argument has become about how popular everyone’s opinions are, the useful bit of the argument has passed.[/color]
[color=#ff9900]
[/color]
[color=#ff9900]Second:[/color]

[color=#ff9900]To my knowledge, the number of emails we’ve received about this is zero. Also to my knowledge, we haven’t made any changes to the zailing part of this story in response to feedback.[/color]
[color=#ff9900]
[/color]
[color=#ff9900]Third, I wanted to shed a little light on a topic based on this:[/color]
[color=#ff9900]
[/color]

[color=#ff9900]
[/color]
[color=#ff9900]The word &quotmajority&quot is tricky, here. It’s worth remembering that:[/color]
[color=#ff9900]
[/color]
[color=#ff9900]1. A tiny proportion of players post on this forum[/color]
[color=#ff9900]2. A tinier proportion read/comment/rate a particular thread or post[/color]
[color=#ff9900]3. People who are cross about something are vastly more likely to post than people who were happy with it[/color]
[color=#ff9900]
[/color]
[color=#ff9900]Any discussion here is already a minority, and pluses or minuses on a post are too tiny a figure to be reliable data. [/color][color=rgb(255, 153, 0)]We love our forum and get a huge amount of valuable feedback from it. It’s crucial. But do be aware it’s far from our only source of information. We have access to a bunch of sources and data that guide our decisions. Plus, concerns like artistic intention and experimentation are important to us, too.[/color]
[color=#ff9900]
[/color]
[color=#ff9900]And even if we were talking about pleasing a minority of players, I’d say we often address minority desires and concerns. Writing content about ubergoats is an extreme example! Mr Eaten content is another. In Exceptional Friend stories we like to explore different areas of lore, different mechanics, different paces, different conflicts, different themes, different responses. Our player base is hugely diverse, and each story is a chance to reach out to a different part of it. [/color]
[color=#ff9900]
[/color]
[color=#ff9900]The single most difficult thing I learned when I started writing for an FBG-sized audience was that they are a vast, labyrinthine, glorious, beautiful venn diagram of preferences, interests and passions. Often there is no majority. Coming to see how little my own preferences - indeed, anyone’s preferences - were representative was… well, let’s say humbling.[/color]
[color=#ff9900]
[/color]
[color=rgb(255, 153, 0)]It’s also worth mentioning that our response to feedback may well not be to change a particular thing under discussion. It might be to handle it differently in future, or to change a connected bit of content, or to stick to our guns (for any number of reasons). I wouldn’t want the forum to descend into a &quotlobbying&quot culture, because it’s current debate culture is so much more insightful and useful to us.[/color]
[color=rgb(255, 153, 0)]
[/color]
[color=rgb(255, 153, 0)]TL;DR: this stuff is complicated. Remember that the forum tends to represent a particular subculture of motivated, eloquent, super-engaged players. We relish feedback, but our response to it may not be what you’re expecting. The discussion is the fun and useful bit, not who’s right or wrong (because &quotright&quot and &quotwrong&quot are often erroneous concepts in matters like this).[/color]

142

Well, I suppose back to the Exceptional Story, I think I can pinpoint even moreso why this story has so endeared itself to me.

I got into Fallen London after seeing Sunless Sea back before release, I believe I saw its greenlight page on steam recommended to me. Loves how it looked, loved how it’s themes sounded. Terror, the zee, losing one’s mind and eating one’s crew. Found FL and enjoyed it before a hiatus (I started during a the winter season, and it felt like there was too much going on that I didn’t quite grasp). But, like SMEN, this harkens back to what drew me in, the terror and the failing attempts at survival.

143

In regards to the zailing debate, I am rather confused as to why we can’t narratively accommodate for both. For the Fruits of the Zee festivities at Mutton Island you had an option for charting your own course to the island or taking a ferry there. Not all players are equipped with the same zailing vehicle and I assume some newer players do not have one at all, so I don’t think it would distract from the story to have branching options with varied travel mechanics.

144

To put in my two cents, I particularly enjoyed this story. My main problem with ES’s is that they often feel somewhat brief when compared to other stories. This time, I felt like getting through the story was a small project instead of just a clicking-through of a dozen text-filled storylets. I suppose I count myself among the people who like zailing and other filler in their stories, if for nothing else, then to give the story-intensive parts time to sink in. In short, my favourite ES so far, and I’m excited to see what the following two stories bring!

145

Okay, time to post my larger review. This wasn’t my favorite story, but I thoroughly enjoyed it nonetheless and look forward to the next two chapters.

What I most appreciate about Where You And I Must Go is how innovative its structure is. It breaks new ground in narrative complexity.

Like, I don’t think there is actually an Exceptional Story with this many twists and turns! Most Exceptional Stories are ultimately about one thing and might have, at best, a single twist (nothing wrong with this, it’s just the usual formula). Where You And I Must Go started out as a murder mystery, turned into a survival-horror quest, transitioned into a morality play (your promises), and finally came full circle as an espionage thriller. That’s a lot of variety, variety that is not necessarily standalone.

The whole season revolving around the Bluejacket makes our decisions more consequential than they would otherwise be in a series of standalone stories. I count three major story qualities imparted so far: the Search for Robert Harris, A Coffin for Lieutenant Harris, and Settling the Bluejacket’s Affairs. If the writers are as ambitious as they seem, the new larger structure offers limitless avenues for continuity, with any or all of these three qualities impacting later chapters. Depending on our choices, maybe we’ll see certain people again! Or feel their absence! Perhaps this wasn’t one story but several interrelated stories combined and each segment will be developed as the story continues. The larger reward replacing the item trade-in further increases the importance of our collective actions as they could add to or subtract from it.

The writers and designers did a lot of different things with just one Exceptional Story and they can do a lot more in the future. So I’m very much looking forward to the next update.
edited by Anne Auclair on 8/27/2016

146

I agree. Upon finishing the story my character often questions whether or not she should have killed him afterall.

147

I agree. Upon finishing the story my character often questions whether or not she should have killed him afterall.[/quote]
Surely being morally opposed to human sacrifice counts for something?

148

I agree. Upon finishing the story my character often questions whether or not she should have killed him afterall.[/quote]
Surely being morally opposed to human sacrifice counts for something?[/quote]

That’s the issue. I don’t think my character really caught on that it was people being sacrificed. Yes, it is heavily implied but she would likely err on the side of caution. Perhaps Harris was exaggerating or outright lying.

Now, what she does know is that someone who is trying to promote science (and is a fellow Zubmarine owner) is in danger. In fact, by not killing Harris she has inadvertently placed similar people in danger.

And that she decided to stand by and not take action is going to bother her.

149

I would slightly disagree about that first point. The Art of Murder was quite unusual in the same way with several distinct segments of the story. It began with a murder investigation, unexpectedly transitioned to an art show, then became a horror-style flight for your life. IMO it wasn’t done as well there; I recall discussions at the time of the transitions feeling slightly jarring. (Also, did this one really start out as a murder mystery? The only mention of murder was the very first stoylet, which often isn’t directly related to the events of the ES itself. It was more foreshadowing for the final bit than part of the early story.)

150

Are there any options opened by having completed last dog society before starting this story? Just wanting to check since I haven’t gotten to that one just yet.

151

It finally dawned on me what the reference in the title of this monh’s ES is. It’s to the folksong, &quotThe Demon Lover&quot. Steeleye Span did a recent version of it, but I think all of the versions have the relevant phrase. I like Steeleye Span’s version the best so I’ll quote it:

[color=rgb(68, 68, 68)]&quotWhat is that mountain yonder there[/color]
[color=rgb(68, 68, 68)]Where evil winds do blow?”[/color]
[color=rgb(68, 68, 68)]“Yonder’s the mountain of hell,” he cried,[/color]
[color=rgb(68, 68, 68)]“Where you and I must go.&quot[/color]

After those words, the ship the two are on sinks to the bottom of the sea.

Several versions of the lyrics may be found here: https://mainlynorfolk.info/lloyd/songs/thedemonlover.html
edited by cathyr19355 on 8/28/2016

152

I would slightly disagree about that first point. The Art of Murder was quite unusual in the same way with several distinct segments of the story. It began with a murder investigation, unexpectedly transitioned to an art show, then became a horror-style flight for your life. IMO it wasn’t done as well there; I recall discussions at the time of the transitions feeling slightly jarring. (Also, did this one really start out as a murder mystery? The only mention of murder was the very first stoylet, which often isn’t directly related to the events of the ES itself. It was more foreshadowing for the final bit than part of the early story.)[/quote]
I don’t think the Art of Murder started out a murder mystery. Like, we knew who did it - a gang of murderer artists - at the very start. So the story was more about looking into said group and finding out about them. Then halfway through things take a sudden turn when you least expect it. It’s not quite comparable to the multiple transformations this story undergoes.

The murder mystery is small and, perhaps, quickly forgotten until much later, but it’s present at the beginning. My initial expectation was that the Bluejacket would have something to say about the murdered zailor whose death was being featured in all the newspapers.
edited by Anne Auclair on 8/28/2016

153

[quote=Catherine Raymond]It finally dawned on me what the reference in the title of this monh’s ES is. It’s to the folksong, &quotThe Demon Lover&quot. Steeleye Span did a recent version of it, but I think all of the versions have the relevant phrase. I like Steeleye Span’s version the best so I’ll quote it:

&quot[color=rgb(68, 68, 68)]What is that mountain yonder there[/color]
[color=rgb(68, 68, 68)]Where evil winds do blow?”[/color]
[color=rgb(68, 68, 68)]“Yonder’s the mountain of hell,” he cried,[/color]
[color=rgb(68, 68, 68)]“Where you and I must go.&quot[/color]

After those words, the ship the two are on sinks to the bottom of the sea.

Several versions of the lyrics may be found here: https://mainlynorfolk.info/lloyd/songs/thedemonlover.html[/quote]

Thank you! I thought the conversation upon making camp seemed… odd, not like the normal way those characters talk. Of course it was a reference.
&quotThe Cannoneer nudges the Stoker. &quot’O whaten a mountain is yon,’ she said. ‘So dreary wi’ frost and snow?’&quot
The Stoker huffs, her breath curling white. &quot’O yon is the mountain of hell,’ he cried, ‘Where you and I must go.’&quot&quot

154

Here’s the original poem, as linked earlier in the thread.

155

If I’m not too late I would also like a PM to the content from the Easter Eggs and Seeking options.

156

does anyone have the echo of the option “The wreck of the Northern Witch”? It’s the one where you unlock the ES while talking to the Bluejacket.

my internet went down as soon as I clicked it, when I refreshed the page it showed as if I had already played it :(

157

Yeah, that’s the other thing I found frustrating. It’s one thing to spend actions experiencing new content with a tiny EPA return. It’s another thing to have to slog through grinds with nothing new to read and still not be earning any meaningful EPA. I’d feel a lot better if it had been possible to just burn through the new content without spending so many actions on repetitive grinds, or – if the grind on the lifeberg was necessary for pacing and atmosphere – if the story paid out commensurate to the actions spent.

I wonder, though, if one of the problems here is balancing the story for both new and late-game players? I couldn’t fail any of the stat checks on the lifeberg, so there wasn’t any element of balancing risk against how long to stay, just a frustrating grind to see each new section of the story. At the same time, playing the regular storylets in the game has a regular return of >1 EPA for me, and I don’t have much to do in the regular game right now but grind Echoes for an Ubergoat, so getting hit with &quotokay, you spent a huge number of actions on this, here’s your 6 Echo item&quot was painful. A starting player who’s used to a tiny EPA, who’s struggling to pass the stat checks and racking up Terror in the process, and whose game isn’t mostly focused on grinding for expensive items might have a very different experience.

On the other hand, I don’t get why there’s a big difference in rewards for the different choices in this story. That wasn’t signaled anywhere, and I’m not sure it particularly makes sense that the option I chose would be less lucrative than the other two. Oh, well.[/quote]

I’ve been playing for a few weeks, and I honestly haven’t gotten many items that would be considered high in anything. I think the only one I got was from the Fruits of the Zee festival.
With that said, while I can’t say I appreciated the grind, it made sense to me because, as the game tells us, the lifeburg is constantly moving and working against you. If the problems were on the action points vs echos earned, and balancing that with the difficulty, on the lifeburg I didn’t have a chance to fail. I’m pretty sure the Zee nearly killed me though, and I was very happy that I didn’t have to navigate back.

158

[quote=Trilby]also, I ran into an option when the airs of the lifeberg are at least 90 that is a luck based option for the survivor climbing their way down. It looks like something that would be worth going after, but I just want to make sure.

That and ask what I’m giving up for those promises? I’ve got about 12 to 14 of them.[/quote]

I ended up giving up 5 echos each to three different people.

159

I wasn’t entirely sure what the ‘right’ thing to do in this was, from my character’s point of view. He is extremely magnanimous and doesn’t take kindly to people getting killed off &quotfor the greater good&quot, but he also owns a zubmarine and is quite a capable captain.

In the end I decided to let the man carry on with his work. This is the echo if anyone is interested, since looking over this thread it looks like mostly people stop him. http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Vryl?fromEchoId=9470012

I got a night-whisper as a reward, too.

160

So I have an idea what to do to get the Easter Egg.

But is it worth the effort?