Earlier it was mentioned that four stats… Walking Fallen Cities, Seeing through the eyes of Icarus, Approaching the gates of the Garden and Touched By Finger work. Are related to North East South and West. (Probably)Is there any chances that Watchful Shadowy Persuasive and Dangerous are connected? Is there correlation?
WILL BE UPDATING QUESTIONS POST SHORTLY
Alright, in reverse order:
First, note from IRC based discussion: We have no clue what Salt’s gender, if Salt has a gender, is. I’m using he because that’s just what I’ve been using so far, but it could be anything or nothing.
Death To Sanity: I don’t believe anyone made a connection between those four stats and the directions. I mentioned them as all being on the Neth’s Mysteries card, specifically so I could talk about the play, The Seventh Letter, and its possible connections to Salt, possibly connecting Eyes of Icarus to Salt as well. The only one of those stats that has a specific attachment to a cardinal direction is Gates of the Garden, being connected to the Mountain in the South.
Trilby: Fun fact, Salt didn’t leave his desire to seek the Thing (new official term for whatever he was seeking). Assuming you are referring to the Dark Room Fumble in the Darkness action, the text explicitly states that he tried to forget that naked need, not that he succeeded. Also, the reason Salt gave up his name is because the "fierce old thing in the darkness" (possibly the White, Salt’s boss) "required it". It quite possibly was keeping Salt from going East.
And actually, Salt did find what he was looking for at the time in the East. The end game text for said Ambition says that Salt was tempted by the "last horizon". Whether or not this is what Salt was originally looking for, or what the White wanted, is unknown. However, it was what drug Salt to the East.
The Parabola question is still up for debate. To be honest, looking over the information I recorded from Sunless Sea, I’m not sure that Salt would be unable to enter Parabola. For starters, Salt gave up their name. I have no idea of the effects this would have on a Judgement. We do know that Names have intense power, see Exaltation and Seeking Mr. Eaten’s Name, and that they drastically affect those that discover them. What effect does giving up one’s name have on such an Entity? Also, we can guess that Salt was in some way changed by Stone, so that makes things more confusing.
Right, the Agent in Vienna. First, as an addendum, Salt wasn’t a nigh-Judgement, Salt was a Judgement. Well, this one is a bit…peculiar. First, I think he is only barely connected to the Judgements, barely a pawn. He mentions the Great Powers when you go and talk to him after claiming the Name, but I doubt he has ever actually met a Judgement. And hey, maybe he has. We don’t know that Judgements kill/drive insane with their mere presence ala Lovecraft. Heck, our Sun is a Judgement, and if anything, their light is calming. As for in the memories in Claiming the Name…I think maybe your memories are melting with Salts, and the Agent is getting filled in for stuff that the White did, judging by the text on each option.
Morucant:
Well, here’s the thing about Stone; she’s half-Judgement, having been born of the Bazaar and our Sun. I don’t think it’s the immortality thing so much as the bastard half-breed thing, if it was indeed Stone that Salt was looking for. However, judging by the Dark room storylet that you are are referring to, it doesn’t seem like the hungry monarch was there to find Stone. Remember, Salt wasn’t sent to necessarily find "her", just that if Salt found "her", they would also find the "treasure", which seems to be the real objective.
I have/am/will be talking more about the Stone-Salt thing in a speculation post, which will be arriving shortly.
I also don’t think that you are bringing Salt knowledge necessarily. The idea is that you literally cease to be post-Kingeaters. You crush out most of the identities you gained when you grabbed the Name, which likely includes your original one. I don’t think there is any knowledge to bring, and even if there was, Salt’s already been to all those places.
As for the whole Salt no longer working for the White thing, it’s relatively solid speculation. For example, take the description of The Travelling Light Legacy Book: "This is the story of the star. An exile from the High Wilderness took up a mask and a burden ad recorded its pilgramage here below. There is no happy ending."
Salt is, as far as we know, the only Judgement to come down here. To be described as an exile, well, it doesn’t sound like they’re still working for the White. It’s no so much ‘betrayed’, as that implies direct action against, but more of, "to hell with this job, Imma go find me the Last Horizon."
Assuming the Phoenix is part of the whole Panopticon thing. Unfortunately, far as I’m aware, that’s seasonal stuff attached to Rose festival, so I never did it. (Unopposed to someone PMing me an echo link for it).
THE "DREAD SURMISE" POST; TOTAL SPECULATION WARNING
Right, so, having laid out information, battled against the linking post functionality (or lack thereof), and asked some questions, let’s suggest some things.
This first thing is more of a hypothetical story of Salt.
So, one thing most seem to agree on is that Salt is the "Hungry Monarch" who constructed Frostfound. The lore seems to back this up, as if you go mad at Kingeaters, you learn that the castle was built by a "hungry star which rode a dead wind from the north". A castle was made of memories, and all of the memories you go through in Frostfound, well, seem like Judgementy things. Memories involving the High Wilderness, a war involving colossal beasts (possibly dragons), the Chain being broken by the Red Science, so forth. With Salt being the only Judgement to come down here, along with his ‘naked need’, which could easily be construed as hunger, as don’t we often call a need for something a hunger for something, he could easily be considered a ‘hungry monarch’, especially when cast against the backdrop of the denizens of the Unterzee. The Judgements rule the universe, even the lowliest of them would likely be as a prince against a pauper to anything else. Anyways, the White gave Salt a mission to find something, and salt set off to do so, eventually arriving in the Neath, which hurt like a bugger to Salt.
Well, the hungry monarch got busy down in the Neath. He sent messengers (Possibly beings of the Masters’ ilk, possibly requisitioned from the White) to the Thunder Dragon in the roof, possibly trying to get information on his objective. The dragon, likely Storm, did as Dragons do in FLverse, and ate them. He then requistioned some sturdier messengers, shapelings from Axile, but they also were eaten. Having enough of that, he deigned to deal with it personally, acquired the Dragon’s name, and made it obey. Of course, this did neither of them any good, and the dragon possibly didn’t have the information the monarch sought. He also corresponded with a queen in the South, and this correspondence (or is it Correspondence :P) changed the monarch…drastically. When it came time for the monarch to leave, his appetite had been changed, as blood into tears.
Before or after this incident with the Queen (I lean towards afterwards, given my surmise on what Salt’s need was), Salt started wandering the Neath, searching. He searched quite literally everywhere he could, ranging from the Nadir to the shapeling citadels. Couldn’t find what he was looking for.
Well, at some point, Salt, whether or not our hungry monarch, was likely tired of it all. It had hurt horribly getting down into the Neath (Possibly having to do with the Seven Treacheries), the thunder-dragon had been useless, and he was shaken by his correspondence with the Queen, and had gotten nothing out of working for the White. Unfortunately, the White knew his Name, which, much like with the Thunder Dragon, forced Salt to obey. So Salt did the only thing he could.
He gave up his Name.
The control of the White broken, Salt went East, tempted by the last horizon. There, he found what he was looking for, and one day, he shall return, and challenge the White. Traveller Returning.
So, here’s a supposition on what Salt is looking for. I think they’re looking for a way to end the Chain. Not violently, through the Red Science, but to bring about an end to it altogether. This surmise comes out of the Kingeater’s go mad quote "The end of the chain is the horizon’s beginning". Once the Chain ends, everyone is free as the horizon; limitless in love. Maybe Salt had someone he loved, but was denied by the Chain. That would certainly explain what could be such a naked need that he would give up most of what he was to seek it. Not only that, but give up in such a way that would permit others to follow. I can’t think of another burning desire that would match, to where one would want others to be able to follow. I know it has been suggested that the naked need was wanderlust, but that just doesn’t quite match what’s given, at least in my head.
Another supposition: I think Mr. Fires is connected somehow.
Alright, this is weird, a bit of a stretch, and perhaps a bit balderdashey. I think something is up with Mr. Fires. Recently, in an attempt to grind echo in pursuit of the bottomless pit’s worth of Apalling Secrets I need for SMEN, I’ve been running the Box carousel. Well, Mr. Fires comes up twice. The first is when he pushes together a fighting couple, to keep them in their relationship, to the point where he uses special-ninja squads of matchmakers to ensure they stay together. This is really weird. I know the Masters want love stories, but I can’t recall any others being so…active in keeping people together. Second time is in the Duchess’s salon. Apparently, dirigibles should have fallen under another Master’s control. However, Mr Fires desperately wanted them. Like, practically fought a war, bloodshed and all, to get them, which he did, and no one seems to know why. Mr. Fires fought against the other Masters just to have these airships under his control.
After acquiring these airships, we know that he was out near Polythreme, at least, if we believe a sentient lighthouse. Apparently, someone, male, had come by said lighthouse, seeking a Name (which was remarked as odd, as said indvidual already had one), and Mr Fires came by in his dirigible, unsmiling. For some reason, Mr Fires is taking dirigibles at least as far out as the Sea of Voices, possibly further. Remember, in Sunless Sea, one of the ways of going East is via dirigible, stolen from monkeys, who had themselves stolen it from someone (who died in a tragic, certainly not Pentecost-Apes engineered, accident) who had been building it expressly to go EAST. Though not expressly stated, it is suggested that when you leave the Empire of Hands, being unable to go in any other direction (North condenses down to Avid Horizon, South is the Elder Continent, and West is London, which hates you at that point, and Hell, and you’re supposedly over water the whole trip, a trip which consumes 100+ Supplies), you head East. Maybe travelling through air is different than by sea when the East is concerned. Mr Fires, with his acquisition of dirigibles, deals in all forms of travel, also controlling fuel and ships. Furthermore, I think the non-human tracks left by whatever entity gives you a Bazaar Permit with the words "TRAVELLER RETURNING" printed in Services Rendered may have been left by Mr. Fires. Finally (This is where the crazy, practically nonsense speculation comes in), working off the Searing Enigma: Mystery is fire. Mr E is Fire. Mr East is Fire.
Supposition the Third: The Boatman knew Salt, but the liberation of which he speaks is not The Night
Upon completing three Exceptional Stories, Frequently Deceased, Seven Day Reign of the Raggedy King, and…one I’m forgetting, one can perform a rite to summon the Boatman for a leisurely ride, without being dead. You can even make him take you near the far shore of Death…but after getting a closer look, I decided that I’d rather not force the Boatman to take me any closer. On the way back to London, we chatted.
First, seems the Boatman is from the High Wilderness. I…don’t think he is a Judgement, though I suppose he could be the exile spoken of in A Traveling Light (he does self describe as an exile, and he does have quite the burden, and possibly a mask). Chatting with him about family, he said he didn’t have any in the common understanding, though another came to the Neath, someone he was close to. Apparently, this someone tried to convince the Boatman to join their cause, but he refused to abandon his duty. He then remarks that some things are not meant to be liberated.
There’s two possible deductions I’ve reached here. One is that, yes, Salt is backing the Liberation of the Night. This…just feels off for some reason to me. I’m not quite sure of the reason for backing the destruction of Judgements for breaking the Chain (Pretty sure the Revolutionaries want to end the Judgements, as there is talk of destroying the Sun, but not sure what their views towards the Chain are.)
The second possibility is that the liberation spoken of was not the Night, but another, liberating everyone from the Chain, as per my little pet theory above. Keep in mind that recently is both relative, as we’re talking recently to a being that worked/works in immortal circles, and recently in the Neath, which screws with Time for funsies, as per the Treachery of Clocks.
Hm. Well firstly, now I want to know who the Queen in the South is. Sounds like that’s Stone? It’d match Salt being considered a King, I guess. Secondly…if what Salt (sent by White) is seeking is the liberation from the Chain, that implies White wants it. This implies that White loves someone not on its level…could White be the sun, having come to love the Bazaar in return? Wild speculation here. Or if, as you suggested, what Salt desperately desires is not what White sent him for, we still don’t know what the treasure is, and I wonder how Salt ended up so hungry for whatever. …And who he fell in love with, if that’s /why/ he seeks the end of the Chain.
Mr. Fires, we know, is very fond of London. He’s worked hard to keep couples /in London/ together, but he’s sabotaging the Bazaar as much as he can, and the Bazaar also acts for love, so it’s not love alone that motivates him. If he’s in favor of a less violent end to the Chain (I know nothing about the Red Science, but you implied it’s rather nasty, and that the Bazaar used it), this might be why he’s in favor of other love but not the Bazaar’s. The question this raises is, why? Does he have some motivation other than liking life in London? Does he too have someone he loves? So many questions!
Also I think the Boatman, saying some things are not meant to be liberated, speaks less of the quest he was asked to join and more of abandoning his duty to the dead – death comes to everything in time, and he’s rather angry at you if you beat him enough times at chess, saying in the end everything belongs to him. I don’t know if the Boatman himself has screwed with Time – that seems like something he has to put up with, not something he’d do himself. As an aside, I rather like him as a character, adn now I really wanna play those three Exceptional Stories. x.x
[quote=shylarah]Hm. Well firstly, now I want to know who the Queen in the South is. Sounds like that’s Stone? It’d match Salt being considered a King, I guess. Secondly…if what Salt (sent by White) is seeking is the liberation from the Chain, that implies White wants it. This implies that White loves someone not on its level…could White be the sun, having come to love the Bazaar in return? Wild speculation here. Or if, as you suggested, what Salt desperately desires is not what White sent him for, we still don’t know what the treasure is, and I wonder how Salt ended up so hungry for whatever. …And who he fell in love with, if that’s /why/ he seeks the end of the Chain.
Mr. Fires, we know, is very fond of London. He’s worked hard to keep couples /in London/ together, but he’s sabotaging the Bazaar as much as he can, and the Bazaar also acts for love, so it’s not love alone that motivates him. If he’s in favor of a less violent end to the Chain (I know nothing about the Red Science, but you implied it’s rather nasty, and that the Bazaar used it), this might be why he’s in favor of other love but not the Bazaar’s. The question this raises is, why? Does he have some motivation other than liking life in London? Does he too have someone he loves? So many questions!
Also I think the Boatman, saying some things are not meant to be liberated, speaks less of the quest he was asked to join and more of abandoning his duty to the dead – death comes to everything in time, and he’s rather angry at you if you beat him enough times at chess, saying in the end everything belongs to him. I don’t know if the Boatman himself has screwed with Time – that seems like something he has to put up with, not something he’d do himself. As an aside, I rather like him as a character, adn now I really wanna play those three Exceptional Stories. x.x[/quote]
Stone is almost assuredly the Queen in the South. The Frostfound Dark Room Fumble that speaks of the Queen, gives you her curse, with the line that the queen will not be pleased you found part of her correspondence with the monarch.
The thing is, we don’t know what the White wanted. My idea is that the White told Salt to go finf a thing, and then fetch another thing. Salt goes along with this at first. Salt then is changed by Stone, and doesn’t want to do this. The implication is that Salt’s naked need is seperate, and existed prior to, the White’s assignment.
We are also pretty sure that the White is not the Sun. Like, pretty damn sure. White is a Judgement spymaster, and possibly the one that will kill us all once the Seventh City falls. (Having recently been graciously granted a copy of the Panopticon play on the IRC, and assuming the Seventh Letter is prophetic, it seems like our world is on a countdown clock. In another storylet, there is mention of the White coming to enforce a "frozen law", which is probably the termination of our Sun).
The main reason I’m on this whole speculation about wanting to end the chain is the rambling at Kingeater’s from the "Go mad" option. The chain’s end is the horizon’s beginning. It’s noted in Exaltation that Salt was tempted by the last horizon, and Salt even is known as the god of horizons. I mean, I am assuming that it’s talking about the Chain capital-c and not little-c, so I could be completely wrong.
Having done more research into Mr. Fires, on that god-awful luck-roulette island known as Polythreme, it is known that Mr. Fires is responsible for the Clay-man "tithe", the giving of claymen in return for the protection and favor of the Masters (protection from what?). However, Mr. Fires also hasn’t been seen on said island since before the Fifth Fall. Which begs the question: Again, what is he doing out in the Sea of Voices in a dirigible? Before contesting that the lighthouse didn’t say when she saw Mr Fires, it is suggested that the dirigible thing is recent (The Duchess talks to you about it like it’s recent news that Mr Fires fought for them) meaning he was out in SOV recently. And I don’t think that people would have a hard time seeing a dirigible parked next to Polythreme.
Right, on the Red Science. This stuff is considered nasty. While somewhat speculative, our understanding is that the Red Science lets you change your position on the Chain. This alone earns you the enmity of the Judgements. However, according to Frostfound, the Red Science can be outright catastrophic. It can straight break the Chain, in the process scarring Time. You can even be touched by this scar, which you might have to do to proceed through Frost. If everything goes right, you just **** off the star-gods presiding over reality. If not, you might break reality.
Back to Fires…well, the Chain is not doing him, the other Masters, or the Bazaar any favors (according to the Seventh Letter, it’s dooming them). One way or another, if any of them want to live for an extended amount of time, the Chain must be changed, removed, or broken. Also, the Bazaar acts for a very specific love: that of it and the Sun.
Boatman, who I agree is awesome, is giving two reasons for why he cannot join the ‘cause’. 1.) is he can’t abandon his duty and 2.) some things were not meant to be liberated. They are both given as reasons. And yes, you absolutely should play the ESs. I’m pretty sure it’s Art of Murder, Frequently Deceased, and Seven Day Reign. I know the last two are required, I just am unsure if its Art or something else. I found it worthwhile just for the chat with Boatman (though I didn’t know it was a thing until I finished Seven Day. Now that was a surprise).
[quote=Kyron The Wise]
Supposition the Third: The Boatman knew Salt, but the liberation of which he speaks is not The Night
Upon completing three Exceptional Stories, Frequently Deceased, Seven Day Reign of the Raggedy King, and…one I’m forgetting, one can perform a rite to summon the Boatman for a leisurely ride, without being dead. You can even make him take you near the far shore of Death…but after getting a closer look, I decided that I’d rather not force the Boatman to take me any closer. On the way back to London, we chatted.
First, seems the Boatman is from the High Wilderness. I…don’t think he is a Judgement, though I suppose he could be the exile spoken of in A Traveling Light (he does self describe as an exile, and he does have quite the burden, and possibly a mask). Chatting with him about family, he said he didn’t have any in the common understanding, though another came to the Neath, someone he was close to. Apparently, this someone tried to convince the Boatman to join their cause, but he refused to abandon his duty. He then remarks that some things are not meant to be liberated.
There’s two possible deductions I’ve reached here. One is that, yes, Salt is backing the Liberation of the Night. This…just feels off for some reason to me. I’m not quite sure of the reason for backing the destruction of Judgements for breaking the Chain (Pretty sure the Revolutionaries want to end the Judgements, as there is talk of destroying the Sun, but not sure what their views towards the Chain are.)
The second possibility is that the liberation spoken of was not the Night, but another, liberating everyone from the Chain, as per my little pet theory above. Keep in mind that recently is both relative, as we’re talking recently to a being that worked/works in immortal circles, and recently in the Neath, which screws with Time for funsies, as per the Treachery of Clocks.[/quote]
I disagree on the possibility of the Boatman referring to Salt and this liberation from The Chain. If it is to be that this other has a mask, I propose that it is December. It would fit with the mention of the Liberation, and might bring some extra meaning into the Jeweled Future. December is satisfied if you end immortality or if you give it to everyone, but not if you give it to those you choose. It would certainly make sense that someone related to Death itself would have problems with a small portion of the population being given amnesty while the others can die as normal.
On another note, I have my own little bit of supposition. I suspect that Salt came sometime during the tenure of the Second City. Given the construction of The Salt Lions, it would likely be a good time before the end of it. Perhaps this has something to do with how the Pharaoh’s
daughters tricked the Bazaar. The Egyptian’s would certainly enjoy having a star even closer than the Sun to worship.
Little things I’ve found: Pine - mentioned several times in dreams, particularly in the auto-accept card for WTTS, and the Hungry Monarch had quite the relationship with Salt. (This also tells us that the Games of Chess dreams take place in the locations of at least some of the other ones.) (Links: http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Inada~Mora?fromEchoId=6490824 http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Inada~Mora?fromEchoId=6491043)
Vienna - It is pretty obvious that the Old Man in Vienna is an analog for the White in the Waltz that Moved the World. What is unclear is who, exactly, was Salt/the Hungry Monarch, and what they were after. We have a fairly large group of candidates:
The Waltzing Duke - Whatever happened in Woods in Winter could be treated as an analog for Salt’s Descent to the Neath and the Duke is the only confirmed player of the Great Game, but that would imply that Salt was looking for some sort of knowledge or info from the Bazaar, and I doubt any of us have met gendered information outside the Iron Republic. Still, I view him as the most likely suspect.
(Early edit: This would work even better than the Resolute Aesthete, as the Bazaar’s pronouns are always the opposite of the speaker. If the speaker is male (and the Waltzing Duke is), the Bazaar would be a ‘she’. Still doesn’t explain the fact of why, exactly, Salt failed to find it after going to the Sundered Sea IN THE MIDDLE OF THE BAZAAR!)
The Resolute Aesthete - One of the possible endings has her shift from her original goal of getting revenge on her father, which could correspond with the Hungry Monarch’s transformation from the Correspondence with the Queen. If the spy theory is correct, and she was sent by the Old Man in Vienna to get to the Duke and his secrets, it would fit Salt’s stated mission: Find her/the Waltzing Duke (gender doesn’t matter for analogues. All SS captains can lose their identity to go East.) and also find the treasure/Piece of Tragedy Procedures.
Her Mother - Pretty much nothing on this front, except the fact that she already seems to be a semi-analog for the Thief-of-Faces. Worst guess of the bunch, as far as I’m concerned.
edited by Vavakx Nonexus on 9/17/2016
[quote=Vavakx Nonexus]Little things I’ve found: Pine - mentioned several times in dreams, particularly in the auto-accept card for WTTS, and the Hungry Monarch had quite the relationship with Salt. (This also tells us that the Games of Chess dreams take place in the locations of at least some of the other ones.)
Vienna - It is pretty obvious that the Old Man in Vienna is an analog for the White in the Waltz that Moved the World. What is unclear is who, exactly, was Salt/the Hungry Monarch, and what they were after. We have a fairly large group of candidates:
The Waltzing Duke - Whatever happened in Woods in Winter could be treated as an analog for Salt’s Descent to the Neath and the Duke is the only confirmed player of the Great Game, but that would imply that Salt was looking for some sort of knowledge or info from the Bazaar, and I doubt any of us have met gendered information outside the Iron Republic. Still, I view him as the most likely suspect.
(Early edit: This would work even better than the Resolute Aesthete, as the Bazaar’s pronouns are always the opposite of the speaker. If the speaker is male (and the Waltzing Duke is), the Bazaar would be a ‘she’. Still doesn’t explain the fact of why, exactly, Salt failed to find it after going to the Sundered Sea IN THE MIDDLE OF THE BAZAAR!)
The Resolute Aesthete - One of the possible endings has her shift from her original goal of getting revenge on her father, which could correspond with the Hungry Monarch’s transformation from the Correspondence with the Queen. If the spy theory is correct, and she was sent by the Old Man in Vienna to get to the Duke and his secrets, it would fit Salt’s stated mission: Find her/the Waltzing Duke (gender doesn’t matter for analogues. All SS captains can lose their identity to go East.) and also find the treasure/Piece of Tragedy Procedures.
Her Mother - Pretty much nothing on this front, except the fact that she already seems to be a semi-analog for the Thief-of-Faces. Worst guess of the bunch, as far as I’m concerned.
edited by Vavakx Nonexus on 9/17/2016[/quote]
First, for whatever reason, I get to be one of those people who never draws Game of Chess dreams. I pulled it a single time, back when I started the game, then I went mad and to the Beth (didn’t know about Mirror-Marches at the time) and never saw any again. But it’s no so much that pine necessarily has a direct connection with Salt, but more so with the East, where we think Salt still is/going to/damnitFLwhyyouscrewwithtensesomuch. The dreams mentioning the scent of pine is a point for the ‘East is part of Parabola’ idea, but I’ll be posting about that soon enough.
ATM, I’m screwing around in Gallery of Serpents, but I’ll be re-playing Waltz soon enough. Til then, I can’t really speculate on that part.
I will say, the White wanting Salt to find some information makes a lot of sense as per what the White wanted. He is, after all, a Judgement Spymaster. Information is treasure. Here is the Question though; Is this also what Salt wanted? We know that White wanted Salt to go get something, and that to find it, Salt would need to find ‘her’ after which Salt would find the treasure, which is assumedly the goal. However, we do know that Salt had their need before this assignment, so Salt may/may not have been looking for two things. Also working on the assumption that after the Queen’s correspondence changed him, Salt stopped caring about fulfilling the White’s mission, and more on finding what it is that they were looking for, which was apparently in the East.
It could be information from the Bazaar, but that just seems unlikely. The Hungry Monarch, assumed to be Salt on his mission from the White, took the time to set up a castle, and the Queen changing him took time. True, Treachery of Clocks, but if Salt was just looking for info at the Bazaar, they would have just gone in, ransacked the place (Judgements beat space-crabs erry time) and left. The fact that he set up shop, made a Fortress of Solitude as his base of operations seems like they were looking fro something exceedingly well hidden. Giant space crabs are not exceedingly well hidden (The Bazaar isn’t so much staying completely hidden from the Judgements, but more laying low until bureaucracy catches up).
@Morucant That…doesn’t really fit. First, the Boatman is in exile. He failed his service to the Judgements, and is being punished for it. Also, an important detail about the Travelling Light is that they are a star, exiled from the High Wilderness, and coming here below, they took up a mask and a burden, and recorded their pilgramage. Also important is that connecting TL to the Boatman is speculatory, as Travelling Light is from Sunless Sea, and not mentioned in the Boatman chat. Salt possibly fits the TL role, and the Boatman might (again, not sure the Boatman is a Judgement. Probably not), but I really doubt that December is a Judgement. If she is, she is suicidal and insane, as the Liberat of Night is very much anti-judgement. The Revolutionaries want to kill Judgements, or at least, one of them (The Sun).
Also, from just a logic-y point of view, why would Death, or friends, care about only some people getting immortality? I mean hell, other people down here get it all the time. If you’re loaded, you can buy some down the street at the pawnbrokers. A few people getting it from the Mountain of Light changes practically nothing in the face of Hesperidian Cider. I would think the bigger deal is giving it to everyone, cause then you are making Boatman fail in his duties completely. Giving it to some doesn’t even change the status quo.
I will admit that the Salt Lions slipped my mind. Not only do they have Salt in the name, but you can get an Extraordinary Implication there if you have Salt’s attention and dive from one of the Sphinxes. Hmm…guess I know my first destination when Zubmariner hits.
I’m a bit rusty on my 2nd city lore, but I doubt that the Duchess (IIRC, that’s who the Pharoh’s daughter was) tricked the Bazaar by bringing a Judgement down. The typical Judgement really can not care less about humans. We are little tiny bugs to them. I do like the idea that the Salt Lions were built when he came to the Neath though. I think 2nd city trickery was around the time of the Mr. Candles/Eaten betrayal, if not directly connected to that (Some vague memory of god-eaters).
[quote=Kyron The Wise]
@Morucant That…doesn’t really fit. First, the Boatman is in exile. He failed his service to the Judgements, and is being punished for it. Also, an important detail about the Travelling Light is that they are a star, exiled from the High Wilderness, and coming here below, they took up a mask and a burden, and recorded their pilgramage. Also important is that connecting TL to the Boatman is speculatory, as Travelling Light is from Sunless Sea, and not mentioned in the Boatman chat. Salt possibly fits the TL role, and the Boatman might (again, not sure the Boatman is a Judgement. Probably not), but I really doubt that December is a Judgement. If she is, she is suicidal and insane, as the Liberat of Night is very much anti-judgement. The Revolutionaries want to kill Judgements, or at least, one of them (The Sun).
Also, from just a logic-y point of view, why would Death, or friends, care about only some people getting immortality? I mean hell, other people down here get it all the time. If you’re loaded, you can buy some down the street at the pawnbrokers. A few people getting it from the Mountain of Light changes practically nothing in the face of Hesperidian Cider. I would think the bigger deal is giving it to everyone, cause then you are making Boatman fail in his duties completely. Giving it to some doesn’t even change the status quo.
I will admit that the Salt Lions slipped my mind. Not only do they have Salt in the name, but you can get an Extraordinary Implication there if you have Salt’s attention and dive from one of the Sphinxes. Hmm…guess I know my first destination when Zubmariner hits.
I’m a bit rusty on my 2nd city lore, but I doubt that the Duchess (IIRC, that’s who the Pharoh’s daughter was) tricked the Bazaar by bringing a Judgement down. The typical Judgement really can not care less about humans. We are little tiny bugs to them. I do like the idea that the Salt Lions were built when he came to the Neath though. I think 2nd city trickery was around the time of the Mr. Candles/Eaten betrayal, if not directly connected to that (Some vague memory of god-eaters).[/quote]
{Distractions, distractions. We’ll never find answers like this.}
I never mentioned the Traveling Light, and keep in mind that its not Death, but December who has shown distaste for a small portion of the population having immortality. Granted, it is likely for the inequality it brings, but still. On Salt being that "relative" of Death’s, wasn’t it said that Death once feared fire…actually, it might make sense then. Point rescinded, for the time being. Either way, I know very litte.
The point I was trying to make with the Salt Lions wasn't that Salt was brought down by the Pharaoh's Daughter's,so much as it was the reason the city lasted so long in general. While the love story could have been false, there's no particular reason a fake city would be much worse. Well, except for the thing with other people knowing about the Bazaar's quest, but I digress. Either way, the Second City seems like enough time for Salt to do as they need. Furthermore, while Salt doesn't care for those that might worship them, they could certainly make use of them. Perhaps some of their number were the messengers sent to Storm? (edited)
On another note, I have to amend something I said earlier. Apparently, the Bazaar asked the Phoenix to guess its name, not the other way around. The implications of this are numerous and strange, especially since the Bazaar approached the Phoenix and not the other way around. Perhaps the Bazaar was flaunting some protection it had gained? The stuff in the 7th Letter is getting weirder minute by minute.
Anyway, by regulation I have to insert a little of my own speculation. I just recalled that in the course of obtaining Saint Arthur's Candle, its mentioned that the God-Eaters claimed they would only take a little, even as The White claimed. The web has thickened, just a little.
edited by Morucant on 9/22/2016
Death and the Boatman are the same, right? I know he gets the heck out of there after dropping you off if you’ve had some cider. Where did we learn that he failed and is being punished? I have to admit, I rather like him, and playing games with him. Headcanon says Alys visits on a fairly regular basis, at least after she finishes her vendetta. ^.^;;
I never saw December’s gender mentioned anywhere, but I suppose I might have missed it.
I think the reason Mr. Eaten was betrayed and mostly killed might have had something to do with the second city trickery. We know the Duchess wasn’t happy with how things turned out, and she and her sisters did /something/, but do we have any idea what, exactly? I know there’s mentioned a King of…I forget what. But I know he’s involved somehow. Is it possible that Mr. Candles was so fond of the Second City and those that lived there that he helped?
They’re probably the same. Inasmuch as Death can be considered a person and not a concept. The info was learned as part of the post season bonus for exceptional stories The Recently Deceased, Seven Day Reign, and Pentecost Predicament. Can’t remember what the season was called, and iirc should you play all the stories even now you’ll still get the event. You ride with the Boatman and can learn some things about him.
As for Eaten, that’s almost definitely why they were betrayed. Perhaps Candles was the purchaser of the Second City, or perhaps was involved with the plans of the daughters of the pharoah. Which, going of of SM9’s tumblr lore posts ( http://saint-arthur.tumblr.com ) it seems that the daughters found a way to keep the second city from being replaced. At least for a while. And considering most masters want to leave the Neath and for all seven cities to he done and over with, and the Bazaar itself would’ve needed a fresher city for love stories, the daughters’ plans were considerably hated.
edited by Cthonius on 9/22/2016
[quote=shylarah]Death and the Boatman are the same, right? I know he gets the heck out of there after dropping you off if you’ve had some cider. Where did we learn that he failed and is being punished? I have to admit, I rather like him, and playing games with him. Headcanon says Alys visits on a fairly regular basis, at least after she finishes her vendetta. ^.^;;
I never saw December’s gender mentioned anywhere, but I suppose I might have missed it.
I think the reason Mr. Eaten was betrayed and mostly killed might have had something to do with the second city trickery. We know the Duchess wasn’t happy with how things turned out, and she and her sisters did /something/, but do we have any idea what, exactly? I know there’s mentioned a King of…I forget what. But I know he’s involved somehow. Is it possible that Mr. Candles was so fond of the Second City and those that lived there that he helped?[/quote]
As Cthonius above me says, after those three ESs, (currently available on the store) you get access to a bonus storylet, where you summon the Boatman and go on a ride while not being dead. Aside from seeing the Far Country, if you force him to show you that is, you also get to chat with him. Thats where it comes up.
As for Mr Eaten…well, there’s a reason he isn’t Mr Candles anymore. IIRC, he was the price for a bargain with a group who wanted to eat him, forget their name. May have been the deal for a City.
If the events of the Seventh Letter are to be believed, the Masters don’t want the Seventh City to fall. It’s not going to result in their freedom, it’s going to result in their execution.
[quote=Kyron The Wise][quote=shylarah]Death and the Boatman are the same, right? I know he gets the heck out of there after dropping you off if you’ve had some cider. Where did we learn that he failed and is being punished? I have to admit, I rather like him, and playing games with him. Headcanon says Alys visits on a fairly regular basis, at least after she finishes her vendetta. ^.^;;
I never saw December’s gender mentioned anywhere, but I suppose I might have missed it.
I think the reason Mr. Eaten was betrayed and mostly killed might have had something to do with the second city trickery. We know the Duchess wasn’t happy with how things turned out, and she and her sisters did /something/, but do we have any idea what, exactly? I know there’s mentioned a King of…I forget what. But I know he’s involved somehow. Is it possible that Mr. Candles was so fond of the Second City and those that lived there that he helped?[/quote]
As Cthonius above me says, after those three ESs, (currently available on the store) you get access to a bonus storylet, where you summon the Boatman and go on a ride while not being dead. Aside from seeing the Far Country, if you force him to show you that is, you also get to chat with him. Thats where it comes up.
As for Mr Eaten…well, there’s a reason he isn’t Mr Candles anymore. IIRC, he was the price for a bargain with a group who wanted to eat him, forget their name. May have been the deal for a City.
If the events of the Seventh Letter are to be believed, the Masters don’t want the Seventh City to fall. It’s not going to result in their freedom, it’s going to result in their execution.[/quote]
{No one cares to figure out what’s up with the curly braces, and I’m alright with that}
Yup, Mr.Eaten became what he is because he was consumed by three-Mayan?-Priest Kings later known as The God-Eaters in exchange for the 3rd City. From there, I think you know about the stuff with a Well and Lacre. Its worth noting that when you ask Mr.Eaten his name during Christmas, he calls himself Mr.Candles, but also says that he’s "the light at the edge of dreams," suggesting some control over dreams. There’s a lot you can get out of that.
MIRRORS AND CHANGE
Right, so, I would have posted a lot sooner, but as soon as I tried to post, the forums decided I was no longer logged in, and Ate the post, as it is indeed a roaring lion. In a fit of pique, I delayed rewriting.
I have found myself leaning further and further to the idea that the East is some branch of Parabola, or at the minimum, some other dimension. It seems that any dimension aside from our own gets titled ‘Parabola’, and even the Judgements consider things in Is (our dimension) and Is-Not (everything else) terms.
If you all recall, my original reasoning for why I didn’t believe the East was Parabola was that Salt went there. Judgements seem to be by their nature oppositional to Is-Not, corroding the inhabitants of Is-Not, describing it as the enemy and so forth. It seemed to me that the East couldn’t be where a Judgement fled.
Then I gained access to a transcript of the Seventh Letter.
Everyone is convinced (And I suppose I agree) that the Phoenix of said play is a representative of Salt. The Phoenix is a character who is a being of fire, specifically, one tired of the fire, and plans to drown herself (Phoenix being an actress in this production, doesn’t necessarily nail down a gender, if one exists) in snow and emerge changed.
Tying to this to the Sunless Sea storyline, Salt becomes weary of being a Judgement (perhaps changed by the Southern Queen Stone, half-Judgement, half-spacecrab), sacrifices their Name-Which-Burns (Both literal fire, and possibly their status of being a Judgement). Well, from here, what would the opposite of fire be? Throughout the lore, we’ve been directly told that the opposite of Judgements, of fire, of Is…is Is-Not. Parabola. Salt may very well have drowned themselves in Parabola, and emerged changed.
To back this up, consider the Correspondence in Parabola, the Tree of Scars storylet in the Mirror-Marches. This script (written in a language that would have originated from the High Wilderness, since that is where the Correspondence as I understand it arises) speaks of a process that can only take place beyond the mirror, likely meaning in Parabola. It speaks of how the forces of Lignefication (becoming wood is the closest understanding I can find) and Petrification (becoming mineral, likely understood as stone given the context) can become opposed (which they seem to start off as) yet complementary and dynamic forces.
So we have High Wilderness script, in Parabola, speaking of a way to make oppositional forces become complementary and dynamic as well. We have the Phoenix, a being of Fire, diving into the Snow (Which we could consider as opposite, being Water and Cold, as opposed to Fire and Heat) and emerging changed. Perhaps Salt, a being of Is, journeyed into Parabola, and through this process, became something…more.
THE CASTLE OF FORESTS AND THE WOODS IN WINTER
The Woods in Winter that the Waltzing Duke refers to here ( http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Vavakx~~Nonexus?fromEchoId=9160210 ) are an analog to the Castle of Forests, a parabolan location under Fingerking control ( http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Spacemarine9?fromEchoId=2553291 and http://fallenlondon.wikia.com/wiki/Wednesday_in_Parabola ).
-
They have identical descriptions of "black bark in snow" and "black bark and white snow" (see the above echoes by yours truly and spacemarine).
-
The trial that the Waltzing Duke describes
"The woods in winter. It happened before me. It happened after. I passed my trial, and came to London."
also appears in Irem ( Irem - Official Sunless Sea Wiki ) when you sacrifice a Lamentable Relic to the ice.
"When the waves settle, you will see falling snow and black bark. You will see two men standing in wintry woods. The younger will prove himself to the older. Others have done so before; others will do so after. The vision will change. The old man will sip coffee on a sunlit street. He will write an order. He will send a pawn below, to London."
and I don’t think I need to explain Irem’s relationship to Parabola and the sneks.
Therefore, we can conclude that Salt’s passage to the Neath was ordered at the Castle of Forests, which gives us a whole other set of uncomfortable implications about the Judgements, the Fingerkings and the Is-Not. Fascinating.
[quote=Vavakx Nonexus]THE CASTLE OF FORESTS AND THE WOODS IN WINTER
The Woods in Winter that the Waltzing Duke refers to here ( http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Vavakx~~Nonexus?fromEchoId=9160210 ) are an analog to the Castle of Forests, a parabolan location under Fingerking control ( http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Spacemarine9?fromEchoId=2553291 and http://fallenlondon.wikia.com/wiki/Wednesday_in_Parabola ).
-
They have identical descriptions of "black bark in snow" and "black bark and white snow" (see the above echoes by yours truly and spacemarine).
-
The trial that the Waltzing Duke describes
"The woods in winter. It happened before me. It happened after. I passed my trial, and came to London."
also appears in Irem ( Irem - Official Sunless Sea Wiki ) when you sacrifice a Lamentable Relic to the ice.
"When the waves settle, you will see falling snow and black bark. You will see two men standing in wintry woods. The younger will prove himself to the older. Others have done so before; others will do so after. The vision will change. The old man will sip coffee on a sunlit street. He will write an order. He will send a pawn below, to London."
and I don’t think I need to explain Irem’s relationship to Parabola and the sneks.
Therefore, we can conclude that Salt’s passage to the Neath was ordered at the Castle of Forests, which gives us a whole other set of uncomfortable implications about the Judgements, the Fingerkings and the Is-Not. Fascinating.[/quote]
Well, not technically. First, the Woods in Winter are on Earth, Vienna specifically, as said by the ES. Salt got their orders in a…Palace of Poisoned Crystal, or Vienna. When you are taking the Name-Which-Burns in Sunless Sea, you get to pick one of two options two times. The first pair details you getting the orders, with the pair being White/Vienna. The second pair details immediately after, options being Woods in Winter/Palace of Poisoned Crystal. Each option is very similar to the other, with the White/Posioned pairs putting in words like ‘his nimbus gutters’ or ‘radiation’ instead of snow.
I don’t think we can take that to mean that the place the orders were given was in Parabola, though I won’t necessarily rule that out. This falls back onto my original issue, that Judgement light is inimical to Is-Not denizens, though I do wonder if this is by reflex, nature, or choice (EDIT: Looking at Spacemarine9’s journal entry, the one you linked above, it seems it is not choice, as Parabolans hunger for the Daughter, AKA Stone, who is half-Judgement, and her light is deadly). The White is a Judgement Spymaster, and I find it unrealistic (heh) to conclude that he based his operations in Parabola. What with the Is and Is-Not hating each other, I doubt that Parabolans would casually allow stars to move through Parabola. Also, can’t remember if anything actually backs it up, but I seem to recall mentions of the White coming from the North when he does come, which is High Wilderness Gate location. It…just doesn’t make any sense lore-wise, for White to be in Parabola.
I think it’s Irem’s altered time flow (Parabola operates under different rules of Time than our universe) that leads to the visions, not the visions being a view of Parabola. Fun fact, IIRC that storyet correctly, you get Moves in the Great Game after doing it. What I take from it though is that whatever it is that the White wants from the Neath, or the Bazaar, as the Waltzing Duke says was his objective, he didn’t stop with sending Salt.
Having just replayed Waltz, I really disagree with the people that seem convinced that Duke is a Salt analouge, or really, connected in any way to Salt beyond having been hired by what may be the White (Prolly is).
Anyways, I would argue that the Woods in Winter are in Vienna, and the White likes to do his meetups with pawns there, while the Castle of Forests are either unconnected, or a reflection of this place.
edited by Kyron The Wise on 10/4/2016
Mostly unrelated: I’ve found an interesting mention of the Woods in Winter on a ball of stygian ivory ( http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Spacemarine9?fromEchoId=7282416 ). Might mean nothing. Might mean everything.
This is a minor point, but is it possible that the “snow” Salt immersed themselves in wasn’t snow, but Lacre? After all, Lacre has been described as salty in and of itself.
It’s the small things.
[quote=Morucant]This is a minor point, but is it possible that the "snow" Salt immersed themselves in wasn’t snow, but Lacre? After all, Lacre has been described as salty in and of itself.
It’s the small things.[/quote]
Just read through this whole thread for the first and wanted to mention that particular piece as well. Remember that "snow in the Neath" isn’t snow at all, but frozen Lacre.
Wild guessing/postulation follows:
*The White sends Pre-Salt to the Neath for something. (I’m leaning toward something like the Apples of the Garden, thus the involvement with Stone, but it could be a method of Synthesis – the complementing of lignefaction and petrification discussed earlier – or something as simple as a way to conceal from the other Judgements the way the Neath does.)
*Pre-Salt suffers greatly to enter the Neath from the High Wilderness. How did it get in? I have no idea, would guess something along the lines of the Avid Horizon unless… (this is beyond tinfoil-hatting) the Second City had gotten hold of Pre-Salt – possibly by its own design, possibly by the work of the White – and dragged Pre-Salt to the Neath when the Second City fell. That would be pretty unpleasant, I should think.
*Regardless, Pre-Salt is in the Neath, where the Laws are drastically weakened due to the peculiarities of the Neath. Pre-Salt cannot continue to exist by these rules. It still seeks, but realizes in order to survive, it must be different. It must incorporate the Neath, or become incorporated by the Neath. Pre-Salt – Icarus – gives up its Name, breaking itself from the Great Chain and its agreement to seek for The White.
*Pre-Salt, Nameless now, is a rogue Judgement. It is too Neathy to return to where the Sun holds sway without being destroyed and too non-Neathy to tolerate the Seven Treacheries. So Pre-Salt does the only thing it can think of: It consumes and is consumed by the Neathy-est of substances, Lacre. Salt is born.
*Salt lives but seeks to establish Laws as any good Judgement would. It knows what is to be found North and West and South. So it goes East to search for a realm free enough from the Great Chain for a rogue Judgement to control, but not so unreal that Salt would be undone existing there. Parabola – at least the Finger-Kings’ Parabola – will not work, but to the East is… what? Something sufficiently primordial, where creation can occur.
*Salt resides in the East, Nameless in the Great Chain but Named by the Neath, reigning over its rogue Wilderness from beneath the zee. Its peaches reflect the Apples it never found, but they are lesser. The Widow requires a constant supply, unlike the Cider. (See Note 1)
Note 1: I maintain there is only a single firkin of the cider. The Treachery of Clocks enables it to be "purchased" by multiple individuals at the same "time" without more than one ever existing.
Note 2: King Storm. Queen Stone. Salt.
I’ve forgotten parts of this and also have to leave right now. Maybe more to come later, if I remember.
(And as a semi-final note, Icarus flew too close to the Sun and drowned. This killed Icarus, of course, but death is different in the Neath…)
[quote=Saevitia][quote=Morucant]This is a minor point, but is it possible that the "snow" Salt immersed themselves in wasn’t snow, but Lacre? After all, Lacre has been described as salty in and of itself.
It’s the small things.[/quote]
Just read through this whole thread for the first and wanted to mention that particular piece as well. Remember that "snow in the Neath" isn’t snow at all, but frozen Lacre.
Wild guessing/postulation follows:
*The White sends Pre-Salt to the Neath for something. (I’m leaning toward something like the Apples of the Garden, thus the involvement with Stone, but it could be a method of Synthesis – the complementing of lignefaction and petrification discussed earlier – or something as simple as a way to conceal from the other Judgements the way the Neath does.)
*Pre-Salt suffers greatly to enter the Neath from the High Wilderness. How did it get in? I have no idea, would guess something along the lines of the Avid Horizon unless… (this is beyond tinfoil-hatting) the Second City had gotten hold of Pre-Salt – possibly by its own design, possibly by the work of the White – and dragged Pre-Salt to the Neath when the Second City fell. That would be pretty unpleasant, I should think.
*Regardless, Pre-Salt is in the Neath, where the Laws are drastically weakened due to the peculiarities of the Neath. Pre-Salt cannot continue to exist by these rules. It still seeks, but realizes in order to survive, it must be different. It must incorporate the Neath, or become incorporated by the Neath. Pre-Salt – Icarus – gives up its Name, breaking itself from the Great Chain and its agreement to seek for The White.
*Pre-Salt, Nameless now, is a rogue Judgement. It is too Neathy to return to where the Sun holds sway without being destroyed and too non-Neathy to tolerate the Seven Treacheries. So Pre-Salt does the only thing it can think of: It consumes and is consumed by the Neathy-est of substances, Lacre. Salt is born.
*Salt lives but seeks to establish Laws as any good Judgement would. It knows what is to be found North and West and South. So it goes East to search for a realm free enough from the Great Chain for a rogue Judgement to control, but not so unreal that Salt would be undone existing there. Parabola – at least the Finger-Kings’ Parabola – will not work, but to the East is… what? Something sufficiently primordial, where creation can occur.
*Salt resides in the East, Nameless in the Great Chain but Named by the Neath, reigning over its rogue Wilderness from beneath the zee. Its peaches reflect the Apples it never found, but they are lesser. The Widow requires a constant supply, unlike the Cider. (See Note 1)
Note 1: I maintain there is only a single firkin of the cider. The Treachery of Clocks enables it to be "purchased" by multiple individuals at the same "time" without more than one ever existing.
Note 2: King Storm. Queen Stone. Salt.
I’ve forgotten parts of this and also have to leave right now. Maybe more to come later, if I remember.
(And as a semi-final note, Icarus flew too close to the Sun and drowned. This killed Icarus, of course, but death is different in the Neath…)[/quote]
Just to put things down as they occur to me, this isn’t in particular order.
When I say snow, it is in the context of the Seventh Letter, which is understood as metaphors all the way down.
Best hypothesis for what the White wants is something from the Bazaar. Salt isn’t his only agent, and Waltz (ES) has the Duke as an agent of the White, and suggests that said Judgement has and will have many other agents.
7th Letter suggests that Salt is tired of being a Judgement, thus the whole giving up fire. It doesn’t make sense to be tired of being a Judgement, giving up the thing that makes one a Judgement…and then trying to keep doing what Judgements do.
The Chain is either there or not. As we understand it, you can’t have a realm ‘weakly affected’ by the Chain. Even the Neath falls under its domain.
The Seven Treacheries are likely more of obstacles to Judgements, not poison perse. After all, those Treacheries will fall soon enough…
Judgements don’t seek to establish Laws in Lawless lands, like pioneer sheriffs or senators, though the idea is funny in my head. The Judgements have their universe, and **** everything else.
I don’t believe that the Judgements would descend from the High Wilderness to get…apples. They are not fans of Stone, who was born of illicit love between the Bazaar and the Sun, and would likely destroy her, and anything of her, arising from what is an illegal halfbreed. Further, it is possibly suggested that she is working with the Fingerkings, or some Parabolan entity. Not on the Judgement’s fly list for sure.
Something important is that ‘Neathiness’ isn’t a contagious condition. Yes, things from the Neath don’t functon in the Light of the Judgements, because the Treacheries mangle (not destroy) the Laws, which makes some things able to exist that otherwise wouldn’t. People can come and go from the Neath, so long as they don’t die, because the universe can’t really check for death too easily (save for certain things, like Cantigaster venom) down below. The one thing that is without fail destroyed above is anything from the Parabolan Dimensions. The Judgements HATE anything from there, and actively destroy/kill said stuff.
Salt was ordered to the Neath, by the White. I don’t think he would have sent an agent to a place to retrieve something if they couldn’t return with said thing.
A point of clarification on the snow thing. Not all snow is snow, yes, but not all snow is actually Lacre. Lacre only occurs around the Fifth City, when the Bazaar melts people down into the stuff, so it can keep its Stone Pig engines from waking up, igniting, and launching the whole Space Crab assembelage back into the High Wilderness. The tanks overflow around Christmas time for some reason I’m too lazy to look up. You can in fact, have actual snow in the Neath, it’s frozen water. You get blizzards up NORTH in Sunless Sea.
In response to the ‘King Storm, Queen Stone’ part, well, I don’t believe Storm was ever referred to as a King. Storm is some type of dragon, possibly rouge, that lived in the roof of the Neath (Alas, poor Zepplin DLC, if only you were Kickstarted). Stone is the bastard child of the Bazaar and the Sun, a half breed, and worshiped by the Prebyterate.
Finally, the issue with Salt screwing off to go rule somewhere else is that it is a TRAVELLER RETURNING. The important part to this is that to qualify, you must always be returning, else you are no traveller. Not sure how Salt can set up his East Aestival and still be Returning.
Wall o text done for now, lemme know if I failed to respond to something, or responded in a non-satisfactory manner.