A certain master at the bottom of the well comes bearing gifts.
edited by suinicide on 3/10/2017
This new information, and conjecture from various people, has made me wonder if Candles really was the Runt. I don’t think it explicitly says it was anywhere, does it? Though it does seem that Failbetter intentionally leaves things vague for us to draw our own conclusions, at times…
I really want to discuss one of the endings to Seeking Mr Eaten’s Name, but I don’t know if that’s too spoilery for the forums.
[quote=Kindelwyrm]This new information, and conjecture from various people, has made me wonder if Candles really was the Runt. I don’t think it explicitly says it was anywhere, does it? Though it does seem that Failbetter intentionally leaves things vague for us to draw our own conclusions, at times…
I really want to discuss one of the endings to Seeking Mr Eaten’s Name, but I don’t know if that’s too spoilery for the forums.[/quote]
The echo from the Destin’s option in the Lighthouse (someone posted it earlier) does make it clear that there was something "deficient" with Candles, although it never says "runt" explicitly.
And discussing the SMEN endings on the open forums is pretty frowned upon, although PMs are fine. Which end do you want to discuss? I grieved and would enjoy a discussion if you’re interested.
You know, it says 11 pilgrims, but do we know all 11 are Masters? If we add The Bazaar, what happens to the numbers. Could even put it down for impersonation and bearing false testimony.
[quote=Pumpkinhead]The echo from the Destin’s option in the Lighthouse (someone posted it earlier) does make it clear that there was something "deficient" with Candles, although it never says "runt" explicitly.
And discussing the SMEN endings on the open forums is pretty frowned upon, although PMs are fine. Which end do you want to discuss? I grieved and would enjoy a discussion if you’re interested.[/quote]
Parts of the story also call it "King Twelve", however, and say that it was wounded.
I’d be very interested in discussing, though I admit I’ve only spoiler’d it for myself as opposed to having done Seeking (yet).
edited by Kindelwyrm on 3/11/2017
Unlikely. We we know meta-wise that this is a piece of lore concerning the Master, Failbetter explicitly wrote that. Not the Masters and the Bazaar.
[li]
The clearest reference I can recall is buried deep inside SMEN and costs a serious amount of work to see - a candle that’s most easily obtained by sacrificing a lot of Notability. o_O
Thankfully, Spacemarine9 echoed it:
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Spacemarine9?fromEchoId=8821062[/quote][/li][li]
[/li][li]To me this could just as easily indicate dwelling on dreams or glass-whispering, although I like Cups/Mirrors far more for the later. And as for idleness, whatever Candles’ involvement in the lengthy life of the Second City was, it would seem they were in no hurry to get through the seven cities.[/li]
[quote=Akernis]
Unlikely. We we know meta-wise that this is a piece of lore concerning the Master, Failbetter explicitly wrote that. Not the Masters and the Bazaar.[/quote]
Yeah, and FBG would never mislead us…never!
[li]
The clearest reference I can recall is buried deep inside SMEN and costs a serious amount of work to see - a candle that’s most easily obtained by sacrificing a lot of Notability. o_O
Thankfully, Spacemarine9 echoed it:
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Spacemarine9?fromEchoId=8821062[/quote][/li][li]
[/li][li]That doesn’t actually mention runts. [/li][li]
[/li][li]This echo does though: [/li][li]
[/li][li]http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Spacemarine9?fromEchoId=8825224[/li][li]
[/li][li]It’s from Winking Isle.[/li]
[quote=Silverias][quote=Akernis]
Unlikely. We we know meta-wise that this is a piece of lore concerning the Master, Failbetter explicitly wrote that. Not the Masters and the Bazaar.[/quote]
Yeah, and FBG would never mislead us…never![/quote]
Mislead? Yes. Straight up lie in a social goal that required almost 100 fans to organize? Doubtful.
Mr. Sacks, in my eyes, if he was banished, it would be for either for Impersonation(due to all the visitors at Christmas) or Hoarding, from all those gifts he’s collected.
The "Order of Days" could be in relation to the Mayan Callender. Still doing research into it. A simple search brought me to the Maya and then my fiancée reminded me of the Third City… not going to lie, had a bit of a face-palm moment.
Had another thought: who is to say that each crime is represented by a single Master? Veils is easily guilty of at least half of the list. Hell, I would put good money on Wines being guilty of every single one listed and then some.
Although, it does make things more convenient for the sake of cataloging.
I apologize if I have only served to muddy the waters.
edited by AgentBlueSky on 3/11/2017
Well, we know Mirrors/Cups are the same person from Nemesis, Christmas, and the old Mysteries thread, and that Hearts/Apples are the same person from Christmas/Mysteries. So for who did what, I submit the following:
Hoarding: Stones (Obviously is of covetous distortion. The Duchess is suspicious of Stones’ wealth because ‘the masters do not accumulate wealth for its own sake,’ but Stones seems to. The Duchess assumes that Stones is only pretending, and has some hidden agenda, but maybe, unlike the other masters, Stones actually places some value on wealth itself. It would fit with what we know of it)
Light-bringing: Fires (Fires fits better than any of the other masters. Fires is depicted prominently with a lantern by a lovestruck artist, and used to give a lantern with a shard of the Mountain inside as a Christmas present. Likes to impose order on Wolfstack Docks, boss people around, which is ‘light-bringing’ in that it intrudes on the Judgements’ domain, perhaps.)
Perpetration of the crimes of knife and of candle: Iron (Still does it)
Idleness/the dwelling-on of dreams: Spices (Talks about dreams and the pleasure of dreams more than any other master. unlike mirrors and wines, whose interest seems to be strategic, spices seems to take pleasure in them. Gives a bed as a Christmas present)
Runtery/aberration: Candles (I’m inclined to believe the SMEN indications to this effect)
Pursuit of a Treachery: Apples/Hearts (A practitioner of the Red Science who works to subvert the Judgement’s laws)
Failure and defeat/a fall from king to beggar: Wines (This one can’t be Fires, since it ‘never had any servants’ before the Fifth City fell, and it can’t be Veils, since we know about its past. Pages seems unlikely, it’s not of royal disposition. Wines is very charismatic and charming compared to the other masters, but also capricious, distrusting. It might not be too much of a stretch)
Glass whispering/charity: Cups/Mirrors (I would have put down Candles for this one, since it’s hard to imagine Cups being charitable, but perhaps they’ve repented of it now. they’re the only one with an interest in glass-whispering as far as I’m aware)
Truth-strangling: Pages (I can’t see any of the other masters besides Fires or Cups fitting for this one, and both of those have options that seem more likely to me. Plus, of the crimes available, this is the only one that seems to fit. I don’t have a strong case for it)
Violation of the Order of Days: Veils (Used to hunt with wild abandon. Not unreasonable for it to miss a gathering or two in its exaltation and bloodlust, I don’t think)
Impersonation/delivery of false testimony: We’re out of masters now, but we’ve still got two ‘false’ masters, Sacks and Chimes. Sacks is a creation of the Bazaar, so he can’t have existed before the masters and the Bazaar met one another. Most people agree that Chimes is all of the masters taking turns, but Failbetter never confirmed this. Even in the Mysteries thread, they explicitly avoid saying anything particular about Mr Chimes one way or another. And in Nemesis, where it explicitly tells you that Sacks isn’t a real master, it never says anything to that effect about Chimes, and lumps them in with the other real ones. So I’m saying maybe it’s the other way around. Maybe Mr Chimes IS a real master, and imitates its colleagues. It could trade in influence, or lies, or something like that.
[li][/li][li]
edited by Gul al-Ahlaam on 3/11/2017
Its relickers trade treasures for trash. That’s fairly charitable.
so i have to questions as a relatively (i am a person of some importance but i havent done any end game stuff) new player.
1 whats with this mr candles and how come i haven’t heard him being referenced in game even once?.
2 why exactly is knife and candle a crime in the high wilderness?.
Mr Candles is officially Mr Eaten. He is not spoken of in polite company, or indeed in indecent company. You’d have to work quite hard to find anyone willing to tell you about him.
Knife and Candle, I have no idea.
I’ve yet to play Knife and Candles. Can someone who has played it walk us poor ignorant players through its twists and turns?
[quote=shylarah] What solid proof do we have that Cups is Mirrors,
[/quote]
What I recall:
Current content end of Nemesis has the character figure it out: there’s only one book for scheduling meetings with the masters - cups between sunday and wednesday only, mirrors between thursday and saturday only.
Also, one of the relickers of relicker rats lets it out in one of the bigger exchanges.
Also also, they both deal in "The frangible and the fine" in their twitter bios: https://twitter.com/mr_cups https://twitter.com/mr_mirrors
I don’t even know where that came from.
[quote=Gul al-Ahlaam]Impersonation/delivery of false testimony: We’re out of masters now, but we’ve still got two ‘false’ masters, Sacks and Chimes. Sacks is a creation of the Bazaar, so he can’t have existed before the masters and the Bazaar met one another. Most people agree that Chimes is all of the masters taking turns, but Failbetter never confirmed this. Even in the Mysteries thread, they explicitly avoid saying anything particular about Mr Chimes one way or another. And in Nemesis, where it explicitly tells you that Sacks isn’t a real master, it never says anything to that effect about Chimes, and lumps them in with the other real ones. So I’m saying maybe it’s the other way around. Maybe Mr Chimes IS a real master, and imitates its colleagues. It could trade in influence, or lies, or something like that.
edited by Gul al-Ahlaam on 3/11/2017[/quote][li]
This is an interesting point of view, and it does mean the numbers work out a bit better. I’m a fan of this conclusion. And having a Master who imitates the other Masters for lulz does strike me as a fun idea.
One small bit of lore from Sunless Seas mentioning the Vake referred to its "brothers and sisters." This one line always made me wonder if any of the Masters are actually Ms and not Mr. I was kind of hoping deep down the Masters lore revealed would tell us which of the Masters were male and female. This probably doesn’t matter in the grand schemes of the story but it always got me thinking.