Won’t Boris Johnson and Donald Trump make a lovely couple?
– Mal
Nightmares 8 Raving!
I’m in the UK.
Fair enough.
Though Raving is the descriptor for reaching Nightmares 8 which was not meant as a comment on the result but more the thought of the OP’s "Won’t Boris Johnson and Donald Trump make a lovely couple?"
edited by reveurciel on 6/24/2016
Ohh, but think of the good part - the fate purchases will be VAT-free again!
I love how, in this forum, when two people seem to disagree (Robin, lady)… they talk about it like ladies and gentlemen, very politely, with respect.
Failbetter Games guys, create your own country please.
I’m kind of surprised that any country would make foreign policy a referendum issue. Of all governmental functions, that really seems like one to leave to elected leaders and experts.
I think leaving has more risky unknowns than remaining, but odds are things won’t be so bad once markets get over these first jitters. However, I hardly claim to be an expert on anything.
@Beau: but Scotland also had a referendum on seceding from the UK, which is arguably as much a foreign policy issue as an internal one; and Brexit is not simply about foreign affairs.
@Robin: fair enough, although my “condolences” are more directed to the possible ascension of Boris Johnson to the PM’s office, hence the linkage of his name with Donald Trump. And as Brexit is an act with consequences that will extend far beyond the UK, one who is not a subject might reasonably have an opinion on the matter. If it were a bye-election in Birmingham, then my opinion might have less grounds.
But it is quite understandable if you have been surfeited with people cracking wise about the results who have not a primary interest in the question.
– Mal
I hold opinions on the topic but I firmly believe that no matter external entanglements the rights of a People to seek Independence for themselves is an inherent one and must be respected by outsiders.
So I keep quiet, as best I can.
I don’t know anything about politics and economy, so probably I can’t comprehend the full scale of this event… I’m just bummed out on a personal level because landing an UK internship (maybe at Failbetter Games) will be much more difficult for an european from now on.
UK I don’t want to invade you, I just want to learn your language ;_;
edited by Zero on 6/24/2016
[color=#ff9900]It’s ok to talk about this here, and everyone is being civil and adhering to the forum rules. Given how caustic and pungent this referendum has been, though, I want to make sure that hostility doesn’t infect our beautiful community.[/color]
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[color=#ff9900]So I implore everyone posting in this thread: please be respectful, please be kind, and - above all - listen at least as much as you speak.[/color]
@ Robin: The same sorts of things are being posted on boards which are primarily concerned with US politics, so you have my sympathy. As for the EU, there is a lot of discontent with the folks in Brussels, so I would not be surprised to see other referendums myself. The age breakdown of the Brexit vote is interesting, we’ve had much the same thing happening in the US with the Democratic Primary vote. But it is just tosh to blame everything on the older generation.
– Mal
I’m personally glad to have this discussion happening between those in the UK and those in the US. There are many parallels and a genuine opportunity to learn from others. To those who are personally affected, I hope it’s not disrespectful to use this as a case study. It seems like the acceleration of media machines hasn’t quite given enough time or space for personal reflection.
It can’t be worse than this. And I’m speaking as a Greek.
I dislike referendums in general, because they are rarely justified. As much as I mistrust the motives of politicians, they are usually more competent to make these decisions than an entire people.
As a swiss, I live and love referendums. They’re a beautiful thing, and I believe many places could use more of them.
That said, deciding wether or not to stay in the EU was probably not the wisest way to start out doing them. These thing need to be balanced carefully, and that takes time and trying. It seems a bit like attempting your first try at juggling, and using axes.
It’s too early to tell
Sadly that optimism about “voting them out” disregards gerrymandering and the first past the post system, which leaves a lot of people without a voice.
[quote=Robin Alexander][It’s a strange organisation really. It’d be like South America and USA giving power over to Canada, say, and forming "The Americas Union", and then not allowing their people to vote over whether they’re happy with that lack of self-governing and sovereignty . . .[/quote]I feel obliged to lighten the situation by linking you this.
[quote=Robin Alexander]I think I would respectfully disagree.
I think - usually - you would both be completely correct; the government is generally better equipped to make decisions regarding how the country is run, such as taxation or laws, but I think the key thing is that we vote in our government. If the ruling party makes changes the people disapprove about, they can be voted out at the next general election, and we also get promises from other parties to make an educated guess as to what kind of rulers they will be in place of the old. The EU imposes rules on our people’s everyday life; from taxation to immigration to justice . . . our people don’t vote the EU rulers in, or even know who the president of the organisation is (for the most part).
This has become sort of like a ‘general election’, in that it’s more ‘do you want the EU to govern you’? If we have such a poll periodically every four-five years for our country’s government, I think it’s only right we get at least one of those for an organisation with theoretically has more power over us and has never been voted for/against in forty years since we’ve joined (I may be wrong on this? I have vague memories of another referendum some decades back)?
It’s a strange organisation really. It’d be like South America and USA giving power over to Canada, say, and forming "The Americas Union", and then not allowing their people to vote over whether they’re happy with that lack of self-governing and sovereignty . . . the last time anyone tried to exert power over another union it was called ‘colonisation’, lol. At least a referendum is a lot less messy than pouring tea overboard ;)[/quote]
The E.U. is run by a combination of elected heads of state and an elected parliament, so to say that the people don’t have a say in how the E.U. is run is simply inaccurate. Putting a nation’s foreign alliances up for a contentious vote every four to five years would give that nation a reputation as a very unstable alliance partner, nu?
Either people vote for E.U. leaders, or people they voted for vote for them (as is the case with the Council). The real issue is that they don’t. Turnout at the last E.U. election was well under 50%.
I’ve read lots of rhetoric about the influence of E.U. laws over the lives of British people, but I’ve struggled in vain to find any actual, clear examples of it for people who aren’t farmers, fishermen, or import/export firm executives. Your assertion that "we have no say in how we get taxed" is simply false. In fact, tax rates in the United Kingdom are set in Westminster. The E.U.'s power over taxation is indirect and very limited.
edited by Beau Mercy on 6/25/2016