Fallen Cities (A Great Many Spoilers)

Fallen London
441

I read the entire thread quite a long time ago so I’m not sure if someone has mentioned that before. I’m always wondering if there is a zeroth fallen city.

In &quotSomething diplomatic&quot case of the bundle, it says &quotIrrigo + Proto-City = Non-Memory.&quot and gives a violet amber.
For the tattoo of Flute Street, there is &quotthe benign neglect of a soft city fallen&quot.
In SMEN, it says &quotThe first descent, the unnaming of flight, that was forgiven and all shall be well.&quot The first city is almost never referred to as the first descent or the first fall, while the Second City is mentioned as the Third descent. And, there will never be a seventh city.
And consider the piles of ruins underwater. I think it’s almost certain that the Flute Street is fallen before all human cities and probably also a city once. But does it count in the &quotquota&quot of Bazaar’s seven cities?

So, I just wonder if we should count that one as a fallen city; a city which fell and later lost its name and memory, served as a prototype, before all human cities and all human-being. Forgive me if it is common sense, or nonsense.

442

[quote=Fadewalker]I read the entire thread quite a long time ago so I’m not sure if someone has mentioned that before. I’m always wondering if there is a zeroth fallen city.

-snip-
So, I just wonder if we should count that one as a fallen city; a city which fell and later lost its name and memory, served as a prototype, before all human cities and all human-being. Forgive me if it is common sense, or nonsense.[/quote]

[spoiler]Flute Street is primarily made of the ruins of the First through Fourth Cities. The &quotProto-City&quot bit may refer to remnants of Axile down there; this would fit in with &quotNon-Memory&quot as none of the Shapelings recall how it came to that place, and they sang of their lightnings and shapeful disgrace, etc.

I’m pretty sure the first descent is when the Bazaar first came to Earth before taking any cities, hence why that one specifically is referred to as a descent - there was no accompanying city. Not sure why the First City is so rarely referred to as the second descent though.[/spoiler]

443

Wow, this is a great thread of lore and inference. I am persuaded to believe in Uruk, Amarna, Chichen Itza, Karakorum, London, and an attempt on Paris.

What do the prophecies and factions say about the seventh city, specifically its fall and whether various plans come to fruition before or after its fall?

Do we know if the Bazaar gets to spend time digesting the seventh city before the dragons show up?

Aside from speculation about Paris, do we know anything about the sixth city?

What can we predict about future cities, aside from a love story and an empire? Do we know how much say the Bazaar has, or the Masters have, on deciding when to offer their deal, and to whom?

Edit: Optimatum, I really like your post about Axile and their relics under the First City layer, but I would suggest another option for &quotthe first descent&quot that being the descent from Space to underneath Axile. I posit the Bazaar did that first in its initial escape from Judgement, and then might have taken the First City and only &quottraveled&quot to earth by so doing. This probably isn’t the right thread to discuss Neath-Surface geometry, so I’ll look for a different place to continue.
edited by Masterpiece on 3/29/2017

444

I do have to ask at this point, since a quick skim of the thread hasn’t so far helped me with this; is there actually any evidence for Uruk as the first city? So far all I’ve seen is &quotManager&Hundreds’ story is inspired by Gilgamesh&Enkidu, so it’s Uruk&quot or evidence that points to any city of that region like &quotManager uses cuneiform.&quot

What we do know of the First City is: eye-temple, crossroads shaded by cedars, and &quoteven the First City was young when Babylon fell.&quot

(I’m pretty much just using wikipedia as a source for real-world knowledge here; feel free to point out any amateur mistakes I make, please.)

For the last to be true, it’d have to have been a city founded around 1600BC (assuming Babylon’s fall would be when the Hittite empire conquered it), only two hundred years before Amarna fell, if memory serves me correctly. I think we can safely assume that the proverb is simply mistaken, and either tells us that Babylon (founded circa 2300BC) was young when the First City fell, or that it’s completely wrong and shouldn’t be taken into account.

While it’s been pointed out that eye-decorations weren’t uncommon in Mesopotamian temples, Tell Brak has an actual eye-temple as a famous land-mark - &quotits famous Eye Temple is unique in the Fertile Crescent&quot to quote wikipedia.

On the subject of cross-roads; Tell Brak was &quot an important trade center; it was an enterpot of obsidian trade during the Chalcolithic, as it was situated on the river crossing between Anatolia, the Levant and southern Mesopotamia.&quot It is also much closer to where the Silk Road ran, of which the Hundreds was likely a pioneer of.

To conclude, I have failed to see any evidence for Uruk being the city, and disregarding the eye temple feels to me like having a fallen city from 21st century North America, the city having as a land-mark a huge statue of a woman in a torch, and suggesting Washington DC. It seems perfectly likely to me that the writers took inspiration from Gilgamesh for the story of the Manager, but decided not to take the most obvious city as the First, instead choosing a less well known one, but leaving in a major hint for those interested to uncover the actual city.

445

Honestly, it’s motivated by wishful thinking, at least on my part. I just really want my characters to be hanging out with Gilgamesh and Enkidu.

446

Given how far back in history we’re going, the First City is likely to be an amalgam of multiple real-world cities, in terms of specific details. However, the one connecting theme we’ve seen across all five fallen cities has been a good story. The story of Gilgamesh is the oldest known story, powerful enough to resonate several millennia later. Do we know any stories about Tell Brak?

447

Fair enough. I’d say it’s a perfectly reasonable headcanon that in FL universe, the Epic of Gilgamesh was written to recount the tales of a fallen king and his lover, and how people imagined the king returning from the underworld. Maybe the writer was from Uruk, and preferred that it be about a king of theirs ;)

Yes, I’d be inclined to believe this too, had they not included a clearly defined landmark. I know of no famous Tell Brak stories - unsurprisingly there aren’t many other stories from the era of the first story - but I’m not really aware of any culturally pervasive stories about Amarna, Mayan cities or Karakorum, either, unless you count famous people having lived there.

448

The famous Amarna story is mostly about Akhenaten: the pharaoh who traded polytheism for monotheism, built a new capital city for his god, and later had his name removed from history. Interesting note: the name for the city back then, Akhetaten, means Horizon of the Aten.

The stories of Chichen Itza and Karakorum aren’t part of Western (Greek-Roman-British) culture so we’re not familiar with them, but the first three Google results for [chichen itza love story] are three different sites telling the story of Canek and Sac-Nicte. Interesting note: Chichen Itza literally means “at the mouth of the well of the Itza people”

449

Yes, Amarna had a ruler that did changes to the state religion and founded a new city. These are not exactly shocking and unheard of thing for a ruler to do.What I’m getting at is that I really missed the part where we established the cities being connected with the theme of &quota good story&quot, and being able to dig something up on one of them isn’t really quite convincing enough.

I mean, it’s not particularly difficult to come up with a &quotconnecting factor&quot to support your theory and then just google until you manage to find an example for every city (Eye temple, Great temple of Akhetaten, Osari temple, the great stupa temple, Westminster Abbey or whichever one you want to choose…)

Yes, the masters use cities as story-farms, but we really haven’t seen that the common denominator is a good RL story.

450

If there is anything at all I have learned about Masters, it’s they mission is almost as mysterious for them as it is for us.
Certainly they do know what they were commissioned to do and the reasons why, but the how eludes them constantly.

In fact it seems to me that they have become rather… disenchanted about their predicament. I know about one who has given up completely and most of the others seem to be more interested in their own designs than their original mission.

Regarding the cities themselves, I rather doubt that Masters have any kind of system or approach implemented to decide which city they choose. Their understanding of love and stories of love is rather limited, to be honest, it seems to me that they equate tragedy with love.

451

Can the third city be Chichen Itza?
The third city fell a thousand years before London (devils and the correspondence), so it should have been around the 9th century AD. The fourth city fell right in the middle, 500 years before London.
Thus the fall of the third city was contemporaneous with the birth of Chichen Itza. Perhaps the third city was a rival of the Mayans?

Does anyone know the approximate date of the papally foiled attempt to take Rome?

452

I seem to recall a snippet saying that it might have been the Fifth City instead of London.

453

Ah, then it doesn’t do my theory on the cyclicality of urban lapsarianism any favors (unless it was in the 1410’s).
Such a pity. Not that I was anywhere near solving the blasted riddle of the 2nd city’s 21 centuries of bazaarine solitude.

454

Ah, then it doesn’t do my theory on the cyclicality of urban lapsarianism any favors (unless it was in the 1410’s).
Such a pity. Not that I was anywhere near solving the blasted riddle of the 2nd city’s 21 centuries of bazaarine solitude.

455

Ah, then it doesn’t do my theory on the cyclicality of urban lapsarianism any favors (unless it was in the 1410’s).
Such a pity. Not that I was anywhere near solving the blasted riddle of the 2nd city’s 21 centuries of bazaarine solitude.[/quote]Fourth City.

I’d take these with a healthy dose of skepticism, though. Quite a bit of these snippets are hit by the unreliable narrator. I personally trust this one because it’s oddly specific, but it’s far from concrete.
edited by Azothi on 7/9/2017

456

I don’t know if this is the right place, but I was wondering who or what the initials/acronym T.O.F. might mean in relation to engravers or illusions. I saw an offhand mention on one of the old social media accounts for Benjamin Villein.

Edit: Honestly, I don’t know how I missed that. Thank you Teaspoon.

Original Garbled Message just in case I mistranslated:

I%20don%27t%20know%20if%20this%20is%20the%20right%20place%2C%20but%20I%20was%20wondering%20who%20or%20what%20the%20initials/acronym%20%22T.O.F%22%20might%20mean%20in%20relation%20to%20engravers%20or%20illustrations.%20I%20saw%20a%20offhand%20mention%20on%20one%20of%20the%20old%20social%20media%20accounts%20for%20Benjamin%20Villein.%3Cbr%3EEdit%3A%20I%20honestly%20don%27t%20know%20how%20I%20missed%20that%2C%20thank%20you%20Teaspoon.%3Clink%20href%3D%22forum_custom/failbetter-custom.css%22%20rel%3D%22stylesheet%22%20type%3D%22text/css%22%3E
edited by Terrier on 7/11/2017

edited by Sara Hysaro on 7/11/2017

457

Thief of Faces?

458

Father-Snuffer, quite a complicated bit of lore.
It’s safe to say he is an Elder Continent entity, it’s safe to see he birthed the Snuffers, it’s safe to say he pissed off Stone something fierce.

459

I’ve seen discussion about Mr Eaten being linked to either the Second or the Third City and these details that may or may not hint at mythological figures/gods are tripping me up:

  • The Well - it speaks of a sacrifice in a lost city. Years in the dark. Candles and all the things it is possible to lose. There is no wind near the well.[/li][li]Down and down and North and round. Stolen for a city. Gone and done for good. Putting out the candles.[/li][li]A scene on Mutton Island &quotToasting the wind&quot: You stand on a cliff-top, looking over the little whitewashed village. Smoke from the chimney of the Cock and Magpie drifts straight upwards. As you watch, the smoke tilts. The sudden wind thins it to a pencil smudge, then nothing. The wind screams unexpectedly, like a god cut in half. What a noise! It must be the caves around the island channeling the air. At least, that’s the most comforting explanation. Below you, the locals each take nips from a shared flask and make a toast towards the mainland. The wind is a Southerly.[/li][li]The description of Aeolian (of or relating to the wind; produced or carried by the wind) Screams: A curse from the lips of a forgotten god. Music like cold-forged iron spearheads.

I got this guy as a possible candidate for our wind entity who is &quotmost usually interpreted as the aspect of the Feathered Serpent deity (Quetzalcoatl in Aztec cultures) as a god of wind.&quot

460

Chances are anything mentioning both wind and gods are about Storm.