DIAMOND IS HERE!

Alright, actually sat down and tested combat in the new patch. Love the new fire effects. One particular thing to note: Exploit the Stagger Mechanic.
The new stagger mechanic let’s you interrupt zee monsters attempting to charge at you. Having high mirrors is a boon in this patch. Thanks, Failbetter.
EDIT: Lorn Flukes don’t seem to stagger though. Tyrant Moths also don’t seem to get staggered much either.

The new weather effects (Fog Banks and killing Wax Winds) are quite interesting to look at and make for some compelling fights. Melee monsters (ex. Tyrant Moths off Crying Heights’coast have a really hard time fighting you through the wax wind).

You can sail through Barnsmore Gap now and get a Western Stigma, though I’m not sure what that does. Apparently the Dawn Machine is sick and full of hate? Does that mean it’s corrupted?
Beautiful new artwork for Grand Geode.

Additionally: How does one get Salt’s Song?
Irem doesn’t seem to get its name on the map, only its Port of Carlisle’s Haven is visible. Bug?
Frostfound is positively monolithic (Teneb + Brite are the largest floating connected area in a quadrant of the Zee now I believe). Given its size and castle-like structure I’m guessing Frostfound’s stories will involve dungeon-delving akin to Godfall/Mangrove College? I hope so.

Will discuss more shortly.
edited by Bardigan on 1/8/2015

[color=#3399CC]Thanks for all the feedback folks. As always if you find any bugs please get in touch at sunlesssea@failbettergames.com[/color]

Have been playing! The new art and animations are gorgeous. Combat’s a delight - cannon-shells exploding, crabs twitching, monster-goo spreading through the water. Combat-mechanics wise… I’m not noticing huge differences, actually! Monsters are a bit harder - they’re nimble, it’s hard to stay out of their way. Pirates are about the same - a bit quicker to notice me at Veils ~110, but the same tactics seem to work.

Two things that could be clearer. One: combat stats for weapons available in the shops. I’ve no idea which ones can stagger, for instance. Two, something that I’ve been wondering for a while… are enemy firing arcs the same as our own? (I was even going down a line of thinking of “could Bridge items be used to make enemy arcs/stats visible?”, but that’s neither here nor there.)

So there’s been a few changes on the waves…

Some good, some not so good…

Like very much that the stat increase on the weapons has been taken away, makes for a much more interesting game when you have to fight everything with what you are, not what the howitzer makes you. However, one thing I would say is that it would be good to have the stats for the weapons listed when you’re looking to buy them, as (for example), the Hellthrasher has weapon stats of 26-36 and 36-46 for 1500 echoes, whereas the Majesty has stats of 30-40 on both and costs only 400 echoes. This might be a way for people to not have to spend the entire of the sea on getting a weapon that’ll do some damage, but it really does need to be pointed out when people are looking at weapons to buy.

Interesting that you can now fit deck guns in the forwards position and vice versa, makes for more interesting weapons configurations, particularly as a lot of the really nasty things out there really need flensing now.

I understand why reversing has been halved in efficiency, but I’m with everyone else on the idea that if you’re going to take away the only chance of preventing the ramming pack from getting to you, you need to provide some sort of other option so that beginning players don’t get utterly smashed by even the smallest opponents.

Blue Scintillack, nope, really not liking that at all, particularly with the new weapon effects, while it allows you to get a first strike in, when you’ve got suitable weapons on board, the creatures never get chance to get near you in the first place, and that includes the Savage Lorn Flukes and Mount Nomad, so on the one hand, as long as you’ve got weapons that stun, you’re never going to be in any danger, if you don’t have weapons that stun, you’re going to take a lot of damage because those creatures will keep charging and you haven’t got any way to avoid things.

Terror – Well, that’s certainly changed hasn’t it… Goes up at twice the rate it used to, which on the one hand is understandable that things are nasty out there, but I got the update when I was out at sea in a ship that’s well armed, well provisioned, well crewed, and was on 12 terror at the time I started back from the Chelonate on the eastern edge. I fought five things on the way back, two lorn flukes, two pirates, one Jilly, got back into port with Terror 82 and seriously wondered a few times if I was actually going to make it back before the drownies got me. I understand creatures causing additional terror, but I think that there needs to be something in return when you drop the aforementioned creature in battle. For example, one of the Lorn flukes I came up against didn’t do any physical damage, but managed to boost my terror by forty points in a single engagement, which was truly terrifying as a player, and (I felt) more than a little unfair, because when I finally killed it, I didn’t get anywhere near that amount of terror back as a reward for beating it.

I know the argument there is going to be that the creatures could still be out there, but I’m with Brody and Hooper on this matter. After Jaws got killed, both of them were in the water paddling away like kids because the big bad they’d dealt with was gone and while I appreciate that’s a film, there’s a lot to be said for killing the thing that was terrorising you. Even if the mechanic was something simple like you lost half the terror damage that creature has caused you, or have the terror caused reduced by the number of crew you have left (or a half of that, similar to hunger), which would represent the idea that huge numbers of crew would be there for each other, and that terrible things aren’t so very terrible when you’ve got an army at your back…

Weather, a curious thing to be sure, lovely effects, but the practicality of the effects is a concern.

For example – fog reduces visibility for all concerned, which is fine, but then it also sets your terror accumulator to red, no matter where you are, what you’re near, and what you’re doing. If you’re retreating from a monster and you encounter a fog bank that you can’t just change direction from and power through, you can end up ten terror worse off than you were, not counting whatever terror the monster comes up with. I understand the reduction of visibility, but not the terror. Increase the terror penalties for anything you encounter while you’re in the fog, but the fog shouldn’t cause it all by itself.
Snow causing the engine to slow down I don’t get at all, reduce visibility by all means, but slowing the ship down should work both ways, if you’re sailing into the storm, slow down, if you’re sailing out of the storm, speed up, but not an all purpose engine kill.
Love the wax storms down near Varchas, lovely idea, doesn’t make any difference to the engine but it’s a nice effect, and I think that most weather effects should be like that. I also think that there should be some sort of limiting effect upon them, either within a certain range of home waters or when the ship gets down to minimum provisions or fuel, most people don’t mind buying the farm in a fight or tacking it out to the eastern edge, but running out of fuel because you had enough to get back when you started but had two storms on the way back is a bad way to go out and smacks more of bad luck than bad judgement, and most people will be fine with their own bad judgement, Bad luck on the other hand…

On a whim I started a new game, using the knowledge that I’ve got from a few months on the waves, sunk all but ten echoes into fuel and supplies and set out, managed to get around eight ports with a careful combination of blowing up bats and taking the supplies, full powering around Lifebergs, blowing up crabs for terror reduction, and having a rough idea of where all the ports were in the first place. Got back to base and spoke to the admiral, first piece of strategic information I’ve got to retrieve is on the Avid Horizon, and I’ve managed to accumulate a hundred echoes from the port reports, used up most of my admiralties favour on repairing the ship which was badly damaged. I’ve had to take the Blind Bruisers offer (Which is railroading any way you want to look at it) because without it, I’ll never get out on the waves again, I’ll not even make it to hunters and back without running out of everything.

It’s easy for us to look at this from the point of view of experienced captains and sailors, all of us running around with frigates and heavy weapons, good engines, plenty of officers, and all the money needed to make it back every time, even if we have to refuel out there and resupply. The problem here is that if the game is ever to grow from those of us that have already got the game into something that others will play and enjoy, there has to be a learning period, a moment where the full horror of what’s out there doesn’t impact on you till such time as you’ve had chance to acclimatise to what you’re doing out there. Starting the game with little chance, no fuel, no hope, and every chance of running out of fuel or supplies before you go anywhere serious.

There was comment that most captains have to be out there and fall a few times before they get enough money and skills to make a good go of it out there.

And I quote all the gods of the sea out there when I say…

Sod that…

If the first five times you go out there, you end up dead, starving, eaten, crunched, out of fuel or stark raving nutty, you’ll have one of two reactions.

1: I’ll stay with this till I have it…
2: I’ll go play something else…

The problem here is that a lot of people will take door number two, and we’re in the position now of understanding that the things that don’t work will still be looked at and possibly changed, when the game hits final release, that option will no longer be there, and while experienced captains will be fine with going out there and going that bit further because they know other things are out there, I remember what it was like when I first started on this game and didn’t know what I know now. There has to be something that keeps people interested in the game, something that gives them a way to see what’s going on straight away without having to die those many times.

Has there been a consideration to have home waters visible from the off?

After all, go out there more than once and you’ll know where the basic fixed points (Venderbight, Hunters, Mutton) are, but you need to be willing to take that journey up to get to Venderbight, and the first time you go past Venderbight, you encounter a lifeberg and you never go any further than that because you don’t know that what’s beyond them is worth it.

It’s just a concern that everyone playing this now has seen the score and knows how it works, beginners don’t have that wealth of knowledge and I think that there needs to be something along those lines for beginners, perhaps something in the navigators boon, just something that gives them something to work with…

I actually haven’t had a terrible amount of trouble with Terror (speaking in terms of Not A New Player Anymore, per your concern) – that is, no more than before – since I just sail around fogbanks and am wealthy enough for ****-you guns, and I always try to hug coasts, game the Terror increase system, and hit islands with Terror-reducing options if my route takes me into their vicinity.

Regarding visibility of fixed locations: perhaps just their names could be visible before they have been properly explored in person, and only the main port/location name (no smaller geographical features).


Re: not eating the newbies:

Perhaps Veils/evasion could be de-nerfed and a stronger, much more punishing Veils/evasion penalty could be applied to large ships (with ship-conferred stats not applying while docked/ashore, to avoid fucking with stats challenges there). That way, 1) newbies in their little ships can still run away from monsters, which is scary but doable and 2) the Corvette and the Cutter become not useless. And 3) combat goes back to being not actually required.
edited by Fretling on 1/8/2015

Take it all back about combat, the starting steamer has all her weapon options back, just went lifeberg hunting with the Majesty on the edge of a storm for sixteen outlandish artefacts without taking a single hit, then Mount Nomad showed up a half fathom from Venderbight and I made a run for it, getting caught in a fog bank near home and having the pirate pinnace (also with two guns) show up to cause more damage than all the lifebergs put together.

Balance may need addressing slightly…

Wait, what do you mean about &quotall her weapon options back&quot? I still haven’t started a new captain yet.

Edit: Rereading, does that mean the starting steamer has all slot now or something?
edited by Fretling on 1/8/2015

Haven’t yet had a chance to play. I plan to rectify that tonight.

But reading everyone’s comments, the mechanics seem to have the right spirit, just a little balance overkill.

And I’d agree that Sunless Sea has only gotten harder on new captains, not easier, with the updates. But I also agree that the only real advantage in SS is knowledge. With knowledge, you make informed decisions and take informed risks. New captains? They can zail themselves to the bottom of the Zee by making one totally uninformed decision (depending on map randomness.) Like zailing east out of Venderblight with your average newbie’s fuel and supply stocks.

You also have to be thinking two steps ahead of your plans in SS, which takes a little getting used to. I’m not a math person by any means, but I think I’ve done more calculations for fuel use and supply use and speed and everything in SS more than any game I’ve played in the last few years. Knowing how much fuel it take to safely explore is part of the game’s learning curve. SS really is about scarcity, and how you maneuver in that environment. What does it require of you? Does it require farming trips to the most lucrative storylets, to pad out your bankroll so you have a lot of room for error? Does it require a well-plotted route where you’ve weighed your costs and profits intelligently? Those things you just have to learn. Either by getting lucky, dying a lot, savescumming, cheating, or playing very conservatively at the beginning.

Ever watch those American crab fishing shows, that take place up in the Baltic Sea? Ice and snow both add literal tons of weight to a ship and badly destabilize it. Perhaps that’s what it’s trying to simulate.
edited by Nenjin on 1/9/2015

Kingeater Castle has the best option in the game now.

I don’t really get that “don’t try to fight with the starter ship” thing. Even the lorn-fluke is quite doable if you have enough provisions to make repairs during the fight (and some luck, I suppose, since you can’t move while repairs go on). My problem is that it doesn’t feel rewarding. Especially fighting pirates - there’s not much difference loot-wise between the 30 hull pinnace and most of the bigger ships except the occasional extra crate, at least not enough to justify the waste of fuel and rations during the fight. And they shouldn’t be able to make such sharp turns… the beasts maybe yes, but not the ships.

Is there a way to get your iron that high? Without the boosts from the weapons, even the officers only add about 20-30 iron which falls short of 150.[li](Also someone’s let their ocular toadbeasts out :O)[/li][li]
edited by fortluna on 1/9/2015

Probably not legitimately yet, but it’s a great option for its sheer… optionness.
ed; actually, with the memento mori you might be able to, if you’re at capped stats with a dreadnought and a buncha buff officers. I think.
edited by Spacemarine9 on 1/9/2015

Is the memento mori a legacy item? The officers add 18 and the dreadnought 10, so if Iron can also be gotten up to 110 that’s still 12 points short.

The Zong of the Zee is another +3, unless that’s been changed as well, and they’ve said they intend for a few special weapons to retain stat bonuses in the final build, so I assume stacking those would get you there.

I don’t quite know what to say about the present difficulty (too high level to tell until I start over) but the game is getting more and more beautiful with each update. The terror inducing fogs and the slowing force of frost storms I have found in the north delighted me while adding new gameplay dimensions. And I was awestruck when I visited Aestival, it almost makes me wish Failbetter would do a naval game on the surface - the scandal!

[quote=Chris Gardiner][quote=Hannah Flynn][color=#0066ff]My highlight is: [/color]
[color=#0066ff]The Icarus in Black weapon will allow you to fire monster-hunters at monsters.[/color][/quote]
[color=#ff9900]The image of firing high-level Fallen London players at baddies makes me very happy.[/color][/quote]

Mt. Nomad best beware, I would leave quite the mark :)


edited by Owen Wulf on 1/9/2015

…scratch what I said earlier, looks like Wisdom acts like proper land now.

[quote=Nenjin]Haven’t yet had a chance to play. I plan to rectify that tonight.

But reading everyone’s comments, the mechanics seem to have the right spirit, just a little balance overkill.

And I’d agree that Sunless Sea has only gotten harder on new captains, not easier, with the updates. But I also agree that the only real advantage in SS is knowledge. With knowledge, you make informed decisions and take informed risks. New captains? They can zail themselves to the bottom of the Zee by making one totally uninformed decision (depending on map randomness.) Like zailing east out of Venderblight with your average newbie’s fuel and supply stocks.

You also have to be thinking two steps ahead of your plans in SS, which takes a little getting used to. I’m not a math person by any means, but I think I’ve done more calculations for fuel use and supply use and speed and everything in SS more than any game I’ve played in the last few years. Knowing how much fuel it take to safely explore is part of the game’s learning curve. SS really is about scarcity, and how you maneuver in that environment. What does it require of you? Does it require farming trips to the most lucrative storylets, to pad out your bankroll so you have a lot of room for error? Does it require a well-plotted route where you’ve weighed your costs and profits intelligently? Those things you just have to learn. Either by getting lucky, dying a lot, savescumming, cheating, or playing very conservatively at the beginning.

Ever watch those American crab fishing shows, that take place up in the Baltic Sea? Ice and snow both add literal tons of weight to a ship and badly destabilize it. Perhaps that’s what it’s trying to simulate.
edited by Nenjin on 1/9/2015[/quote]

So &quotbe smarter and figure out exact costs and distances when you don’t know what you’re going to be fighting and how much that’s going to burn off and how much hold you need and…&quot

I have been playing since the game has come out and having enough fuel and stuff doesn’t matter, I have never once found a way to recoup my costs without one-time stories. Explain how this works. Because for me, it doesn’t, no matter how much math I throw at it.

Well, there’s a storylet at Mutton Island that is not one time-only, and it’s my my bread and butter in the early game. Once I get established and have some good money on hand, I go on long trips across the Zee, hitting as many ports as I can that can make me echoes. Sprinkle a little loot in there from killing enemies, do some work for the Blind Bruiser along the way, get a little lucky…and you can make a substantial profit in one run.

As I said, knowing where to go and what makes for the most profit is a matter of having done damn near all the storylets in the early and mid game. It’s not about doing just one storylet or w/e. It’s about doing as many of them as you can, with as many port reports as you can, with the right money-makers to polish it all off. Granted, the quick way of doing this is based on storylets that may eventually end…but once I’ve done the tedious grind to get a nice bankroll going (so I can buy fuel and supplies when I need to), I haven’t had a ton of problems making money. I’ve got a fully-decked out Maenid, the Zee-side Mansion, plenty of heirlooms, and that’s basically been most of my games.
edited by Nenjin on 1/9/2015

Could the admiralty commission for strategic information also be placed in the objectives category? [li]

okay, now the game won’t let me leave Irem. Everytime I head west it sends me back.