Coming soon: a return to the Forgotten Quarter

Fallen London
121

[quote=Tesuji]I can’t say I really understand that for the Cat v. Rat card, but I can at least get the idea of saying that some pets are mutually incompatible and if you want to have both, you’re going to have to pay a price. I’ll quibble with the idea that players should have had any idea as to the punishment waiting for them before spending 400E, but it’s at least comprehensible even if I think the implementation was poor.

I can’t even get that far with the skull.

I’m completely lost as to how that makes sense, when the offense is holding on to an item that’s a key to unlocking future content or which is needed to obtain another item.[/quote]To me the Matriach/Scuttering card seems much more unfair. We had no reason to believe those pets would conflict with each other, and the only way to remove the card from your deck involved a large financial loss. We can turn the skulls into substantial sums of money at the cost of a little Connected: Revolutionaries.

So the choice which faces an unspoiled player who’s just acquired a skull is not ‘put up with an unpleasant addition to your deck or suffer a hefty penalty’, but ‘keep an item you’ll be able to use later and deal with some nasty cards, or trade it in for a hefty profit’. To me, the former choice feels punishing; the latter does not. I’ll probably manage the cards through zailing and heists until I can trade five in, and then hold off getting another until the Nadir content’s released.

Fallen London used to be about stuffing your pockets with strange jars and bits of string because some day they might be useful; now we’re being encouraged to think differently. The game’s not saying we’re commiting an offence by looting ancient ruins for personal gain (Aten forbid!), just that some loot’s inherently dangerous and, y’know, it might be best to sell it on and come back for more when we actually need it.
edited by Flyte on 6/24/2013

122

[quote=Spacemarine9]Yes!

no really though i’m not just going to copypaste them straight onto the forum given that it’s new content and all and i’d probably get shot. i can PM it to anyone who wants to know i guess???[/quote]

You do know about the new spoiler tags, right? :)

123

I’m reasonably familiar with the costs of seeking, inasmuch as I have St Beau’s candle; I think those costs are painful and a meaningful deterrence, while still leaving the game playable.

I also own both a Scuttering Company and Midnight Matriarch. I don’t think the cost for that is reasonable (essentially a choice between losing a lot of echoes, not being able to own Memories of Light or turning your 4-card residence into a 3-card one) and it doesn’t make a lot of sense to me on either a gameplay or narrative level, but it doesn’t make the game unplayable.

Letting players know they’re playing the game wrong (or, if you prefer, not the way the designer is encouraging or supporting) isn’t a bad thing; in fact, it’s a key tool for steering players in the direction the designer wants them to go.

However, essentially negating the ability to draw opportunity cards is, to me, a pretty drastic penalty. It cuts out a large chunk of the game, and is the sort of thing I’d expect to see resulting from a player going in completely the opposite direction of something the designers want to support. Hence, my confusion as to how this makes the game better in this instance, where the punishment is being prompted by something that I view as pretty natural and normal play.

124

I’m inclined to agree with Mr Tesuji. I do very much like the idea of making it a menace to hold onto the skull - but surely the general ambience of this new feature could be achieved without such a high CP cost per card?

To me, an entire level each card goes beyond the realm of an interesting and flavorful punishment with a payoff at the end (entering the cave) and into the territory of making the player suffer for no other reason than.

125

[li]
[color=#009900]That’s about it. :-)[/color]
[color=#009900]
[/color]
[color=#009900]Tesuji, I suggest you steer well clear of the FQ content. If you find the Skull mechanics incomprehensible and distressing,[/color][color=rgb(0, 153, 0)] your confusion will only deepen.[/color]

126

People like to collect stuff. Many people strive to collect everything possible. I think it’s cool there are barriers and consequences to stuffing everything in your home.

I don’t know what to say to your critique on the Midnight Matriarch and Scuttering Company, Tesuji. What were the items supposed to say on purchase?

&quotHey, just so you know, cats and rats… don’t exactly coexist peacefully.&quot

You are essentially collecting people when you buy &quotpets.&quot And some people… just don’t get along. These &quotpets,&quot though they have a slot in your inventory to jack into, are more than simply gadgets you adorn yourself with. To remain inert until you can do something useful for them. They have their own motivations and quirks. I like how Failbetter games are giving them personality. Even if it doesn’t jive with the hopeful utopia of everyone living in your home in peace and harmony.

These are high level companions. It makes sense their effects will be strong. Whether positive or negative.
edited by Uniden on 6/24/2013

127

[li]These detriments are nowhere near the pain of fully Seeking. True, they’re exaggerated, but a certain part of Seeking is 40x as damaging as the cards and not something you can avoid by going on a short heist.[/quote]
Believe me, I know all about Seeking. The difference is that with Seeking, the damaging bits are few and far between. There are only two persistent &quotmenace&quot cards, and one of them is actually pretty helpful if you want to increase certain connections. The fact that just holding a Skull introduces FOUR unique menace cards into your deck, each of which only has one option that is by far more damaging than any other Menace card yet introduced, seems a bit overkill. Yes, it’s easy enough to empty your hand by going on a heist or pickpocketing or whatever, but four menace cards just seems way out of whack. One card with four options seems to make more sense, but hey, it’s not my game.
[/li]

128

I for one, am eagerly seeking my own buttface skull. I levelled Watchful too fast and missed out on finding the Comtessa, a feat I didn’t even notice until a certain Dream of Thunder. A reliable way of lowering stats is most welcome. Edit: Although, it being a single card with four options sounds like a much better-implemented form of punishment than four individual cards.

[quote=Spacemarine9]Yes!
no really though i’m not just going to copypaste them straight onto the forum given that it’s new content and all and i’d probably get shot. i can PM it to anyone who wants to know i guess???[/quote] That’s totally what your Tumblr is for, isn’t it?
edited by Saharan on 6/25/2013

129

I share your eagerness too, but I appreciate Spacey not putting it up here. It’s a kind of reward for suffering through this 4-card catastrophe.
[li]

Despite all our bickering and complaining, I’m extremely excited for the upcoming content. More adventure, more exploration, more information about the Fourth city, and who can forget:

I shiver with anticipation.

130

i think the big deal with the Skulls is that they take a whole level of stat: 50CP is a lot! it could take you a while recoup that much stat, especially when most challenges give 2CP at best. And you can get several cards in one day, if you’re unlucky. If the stat loss were a bit less (like, say. 10-15CP) it’d still be punishing, but you wouldn’t be losing colossal amounts of stat in one day if you wanted to keep your card deck clear. Either making the skull menace cards all one card or reducing the penalty a bit (or hell, both) would still make having a Skull around pretty punishing, but not to such a ludicrous degree.
Especially because it’s not quite so simple as “oh just get rid of the skull and get it later when the Cave opens”, they’re pretty dang rare! Across 20 Expeditions I’ve seen… one. Maybe the fate locked ones will have a better chance of Skúl appearance, but well, they’re Fate locked. And also Impossible!

but hell what do i know it’s 3am and i have no idea what the underlying design principle is supposed to be here. butts.

131

I like the idea that the skulls can drop large amounts of stats and fast. I’ve been looking for a way to go back and find Comtessa so I could willfully leave her to her fate instead of accidentally leaving her to her fate by missing her story altogether (the difference is the finder of heiresses story quality). Unfortunately you’d have to get to like watchful 10 to do this and the skulls stop at watchful 50. Watchful 50 is too high even with -20 worth of stat reducing items.

In other words, the skull aren’t quite damaging enough for what I would like them to do and that is the saddest part of all :V
edited by NiteBrite on 6/25/2013

132

[quote=NiteBrite]Unfortunately you’d have to get to like watchful 10 to do this and the skulls stop at watchful 50. Watchful 50 is too high even with -20 worth of stat reducing items. [/quote] …are you certain? I was lead to believe you don’t need to do every storylet involving trailing the Comtessa, but rather starting by infiltrating the clay quarters, and that that’s unlocked around 30~35 Watchful.

133

Yes, it’s unlocked at 32 Watchful.

134

Oh! I thought you had to do all the story for it to work. But if you just need to get to 32 then that’s perfectly do able, albeit barely. I already cashed in my skulls so it might be a while before I get a new one, but this sounds like it could be a lot of fun…

(I’m totally going to do this just as soon as I am able :D )
edited by NiteBrite on 6/25/2013

135

Agreed. I think a 15cp-ish reduction would quell the dissent in this thread yet still provide a sufficiently punishing deduction.

Wait… then how have you done the storylets for trading in 1 and 5?

[li]

The only underlying design principle I can find is the ingenious and unreadable enigma that is Alexis’ mind. And quite frankly some of the best ideas and revelations come across when sleep is less than present. I wouldn’t be surprised if Aristotle and Demosthenes were insomniacs.

136

Are the new expeditions how you get the correspondence stones now? If so, how exactly?

137

Agreed. I think a 15cp-ish reduction would quell the dissent in this thread yet still provide a sufficiently punishing deduction.

Wait… then how have you done the storylets for trading in 1 and 5?

[li]

The only underlying design principle I can find is the ingenious and unreadable enigma that is Alexis’ mind. And quite frankly some of the best ideas and revelations come across when sleep is less than present. I wouldn’t be surprised if Aristotle and Demosthenes were insomniacs.[/quote]
[/li] Agreed with the first.

I think someone else had done storylets for trading in multiple skulls. (That or he meant across 20 Expeditions he did TODAY, which frankly wouldn’t surprise me. :P

I’m finding it immensely interesting to watch peoples’ reactions to this whole affair from afar. I’m somewhat sleep-deprived at the moment, so I’ll give a design analysis a shot:

As I see it, the Expeditions are comparable to a few things: Heists in the Flit, Big Scores in the Flit (casing), Dueling the Black Ribbon in Wolfstack Docks, and Hunting Dangerous Beasts. (I’m sure there’s SOMETHING for Persuasive, but given that I’ve been trying to earn a room at the Brass Embassy and play through Dangerous Beasts before I end up locking myself out of it, I’m sure you can forgive me for not knowing of it off the top of my head.) Each of these activites has some unique aspects to it:

Heists and Expeditions both allow you to build up supplies before you begin, and then empty your Opportunities hand and lock you in place until the Heist/Expedition is over. Aside from the quality tested, the main difference between the two is that Heists require you to pick your target before you start building up supplies (but those supplies are bought through Casing rather than goods) whereas Expeditions let you build up supplies even before picking a target, but those supplies cost actual goods, and for pre-PoSI characters, said goods are somewhat expensive.

Meanwhile, Big Scores, Dueling, and Dangerous Beasts all build up progressive qualities that, for the most part, are raised through existing storylets in London. This means that if you get bored with them, you can always jump to some other venture and come back to them later (barring actions that lock you out of them). The rewards aren’t as great (usually), but the risks are less intense as well.

For the pre-PoSI, Big Scores/Dueling/Dangerous Beasts will be more attractive, as they allow for more mistakes due to easier management of Menaces and the like (and due to the fact that Menaces are, well, more menacing for less-experienced players). Post-PoSI, however, Expeditions and similar content may be more attractive due to reduced cost of entry proportionate to average income per action, as well as reduced risk thanks to high-end gear and more experience with Menace avoidance (i.e. sending out three Menace-reduction requests before embarking on a Heist/Expedition so that if they end up in a Place of Menace their friends can help bail them out).

And now for one note about one of these options that I haven’t seen elsewhere: Hunting Dangerous Beasts has multiple conclusion outlets scattered around London. I like this concept a lot–I’d very much like to see some sort of hybrid between Expeditions and Hunting Dangeous Beasts (connected to one of the story qualities like &quotapproaching the Gates of the Garden&quot or &quotWalking the Fallen Cities&quot, perhaps?), where you’re still focused on your venture (locked out of most &quotnormal&quot storylets and Opportunities), but you can travel among the various locations in Fallen London to capitalize on the unique opportunites afforded by the different areas (such as, for example, your Acquaintances).[li]
edited by Flipz on 6/25/2013

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From what I can see, the design seems to be in service to a drum I’ve beaten before: meaningful choices. Pre-cat/rat, the “decision” to have pets/items/stuff was only informed by “Do I already have this stuff, and can I afford it?” This makes the decision a matter of when, not if, and is therefore not that mraningful.

Now, given the results of owning mm+ss or a skull, it’s an actual meaningful choice. Do you own only one or the other, or do you deal with the consequences?

It’s a bit uncomfortable for people used to playing FL like a point and click adventure game where you pick up the bowl of wax fruit, the can of pepsi, and the broken ketchup bottles because they are there and you may need them some day. Those people aren’t wrong, and the most valid complaint I see is that introducing this mechanic on items costing hundreds of echoes feels punishing. No one expected a new mechanic to come with the new items, and it was not telegraphed (from what I understand, I haven’t purchased either.)

139

The eyeless skull no longer looks like a buttskull. rest in peace
Also, the Temple of Uttermost Wind is open for excavatin’
edited by Spacemarine9 on 6/25/2013

140

It’s too late, it still looks like a butt to me. It’s just been sitting in the same position for so long that the butt has flattened out.