Autosave Scumming/Exploit (Unforgiving mode?)

Sunless Sea
1

Sunless Sea has been out a while and &quotUnforgiving mode&quot has been around for since the beginning and there’s something I’m a bit confused about. In this mode, its purpose is to make the game feel &quotUnforgiving&quot. Unlike the standard save system, you get only to auto save every time you visit an island.

I hate to say it but this mode can abused to an absurd degree. The SAY events(or just events in general) never auto save when you make an important decision, meaning that important choices can ultimately be circumvented entirely by making a decision, then going back to the main menu if you aren’t satisfied with it. I don’t know if Unforgiving mode hasn’t been fully fleshed out yet(wouldn’t be surprised) but I don’t see anyone else addressing this. I enjoy really difficult games, Dark souls, FTL, Ascendant, Demon souls, etc so I’m disappointed with how so far all Unforgiving mode amounts to is a worthless token that does nothing gameplay wise. I’m not really annoyed with that as much as I am with the fact that every decisions consequences can be avoided on a mode that’s supposed to be unforgiving.

You could just choose to not abuse autosaving to make it feel like every decision matters but no gamer should never have to willfully gimp themselves in order to get the feeling that every decision, from what to buy to which event option to pick matters.

It would be pretty easy to make this work if the game always autosaves after you make a decision specifically on Unforgiving mode. The same could also be said for every time you buy an item as well. It would be annoying if the UI on the bottom left kept saying &quotAuto saving&quot so in unforgiving mode the many decisions you will inevitably make should have that bit of text be made invisible to as not distract from the gameplay itself. Unforgiving mode right now is not forgiving at all and it would be unreasonable to expect someone playing Sunless Sea to have the fortitude to not exploit it at this time.

It isn’t beneficial at all to exploit Unforgiving mode sure, but the point is that Unforgiving mode is supposed to make you feel like the master of your fate and the captain of your soul. It isn’t some mechanic to exploit for a shiny token. Maybe this will be changed in the near future(I hope)but I haven’t seen any other threads talking about this so hopefully I’ll get some clarification on this.

2

I don’t agree, Atom. To me, the playstyle where you exit to the main menu every time you get a result you don’t like is the unnatural way to play. I can imagine a player hitting alt+f4, if the game were to unexpectedly kill them. Or if they were trying to get the Genial magician. On the other hand: the game offers a mode where you can save, effectively giving you the same effect in an easier way.

I would expect most people who want a bit of extra security to play in merciful mode, rather than use an exploit to achieve the same results. To me, knowing that there is an exploit and not using it makes me feel like the master of my fate and captain of my soul even more.
edited by lord1box on 8/8/2014

3

Yeah, you could ABUSE it, but since it doesn’t give you anything different, it’s stupid and lame and you feel “cheaty” and of course, a moron, if you exploit that. It’s fair play style.

4

For a single player game, personal preference is important. As rpg players, it is also our natural instinct to look for every exploit to get what we need. Unfortunately, most games were never built to withstand such play-styles and are conditioned more for the casual player. For instance, in vanilla Skyrim - you &quotcan&quot build yourself up to be a GOD with ehcnahnting/blacksmithing/alchemy but the developers did not know how to limit that without hampering the casual players so they let it happen.

The same is with auto save on Unforgiving, you &quotcan&quot abuse the heck out of it (which I did) but (again) there is no way for the developers to curb it without making the game too hard for casual players.

In the end, it is a single-player game. You are playing for yourself, and if you enjoy maximizing every moment then that is perfectly alright because:

1 - You bought the game
2 - It is only to your benefit

In the end I stuck with my first Merciful playthrough rather than continue with a new &quotUnforgiving&quot game for just this reason.

edited by Owen Wulf on 8/8/2014

5

That’s exactly the point dear sir.
There is NOTHING preventing you to maximize EASILY everything in merciful mode, “Unforgiving” it’s just meant to give you another personal level of challenge, nothing else, nor items, achievement (atm) or advantage in game or not, since it’s also a single player game.

It’s just stupid to play in “Unforgiving” mode and abuse it, it’s nonsensical.
You’re cheating yourself? :P

It’s just another challenge out there, just like when you played coin-ops and try to beat a game with just one coin… if you cheat, what’s the point?

However you’ve made me cry when you’ve said
“As rpg players, it is also our natural instinct to look for every exploit to get what we need.”

That’s not the spirit of Role Playing :(

6

[quote=Owen Wulf]For a single player game, personal preference is important. As rpg players, it is also our natural instinct to look for every exploit to get what we need. Unfortunately, most games were never built to withstand such play-styles and are conditioned more for the casual player. For instance, in vanilla Skyrim - you &quotcan&quot build yourself up to be a GOD with ehcnahnting/blacksmithing/alchemy but the developers did not know how to limit that without hampering the casual players so they let it happen.

The same is with auto save on Unforgiving, you &quotcan&quot abuse the heck out of it (which I did) but (again) there is no way for the developers to curb it without making the game too hard for casual players.

In the end, it is a single-player game. You are playing for yourself, and if you enjoy maximizing every moment then that is perfectly alright because:

1 - You bought the game
2 - It is only to your benefit

In the end I stuck with my first Merciful playthrough rather than continue with a new &quotUnforgiving&quot game for just this reason.

edited by Owen Wulf on 8/8/2014[/quote]

&quotthere is no way for the developers to curb it without making the game too hard for casual players.&quot Thats why they created merciful mode in the first place, its a mode opposed to Unforgiving where you can make mistakes and go back to earlier saves. That is a casual mode. Unforgiving does absolutely nothing for you or anyone else with the exception of personal achievement. Anyone who wants to learn the game without any significant risk can just play on Merciful mode.

What annoys me is if I decide to play on unforgiving and decide to not abuse auto saving then that makes Unforgiving as a mode pointless. What do I mean by that? I mean that if I’m expected to not abuse auto saving in Unforgiving mode, couldn’t I do the same thing in Merciful mode? I would lose out on a trinket in my ships hold but that’s it. Why put a Unforgiving mode in the game in the first place?

I’ll make an example here. Say that FTL was changed that you could get different events at a particular area by reloading the game after you’ve already picked an option but before you move on to a new area. This would make the RNG aspect of the game far less difficult. You could just keep trying for an event you wanted or keep trying for a weaker enemy ship. This is avoided because the game always auto saves after you make a decision, making it impossible to go back. If FTL changed the game would cease to be Insanely dificult, and would be far less risky as a result. You COULD decide to make it a personal challenge to beat the game without doing that, but the fact that you can will make you likely to reload the game when something really terrible happens.

Unforgiving mode is a MODE and a personal challenge. You shouldn’t be able to exploit a mode in the first place. You can’t seriously expect everyone to know there is an exploit and not use it when necessary. It would truly be terrifying to know that every single decision I would make in Unforgiving mode is saved(If it did). It doesn’t feel unforgiving knowing that I can cheat the game in the first place if something really bad happens. Unforgiving mode isn’t supposed to forgive people for exploiting the games mechanics. Hope that makes sense.[li]
edited by Atom Stratomsk on 8/9/2014

7

I see your point but… it seem forced. If you kowno there is an exploit and USE it in a PERSONAL ACHIEVEMENT, you are breaking your own game experience…

8

If you are in Unforgiving mode, then the game should subtlety auto save after every decision you make to be totally unforgiving to your actions. If I find a mysterious event with alot of risk and I pick it anyway and die, I shouldn’t be able to go back to go back on my decision by using Alt-F4 or reloading the game. If I did something that stupid I would reload the game. Who wants to grind a whole bunch to get the best upgrades and another merchant ship as well as a mansion? If I didn’t have this option then the game would truly be unforgiving. I love difficult games and an expanded autosave system in Unforgiving mode would not only be very easy to implement, it would fix the problem entirely.

[li]

9

Or it could go the route of some of the classic roguelikes- upon loading a game the save file is deleted. Only upon saving and quitting out is a new one generated.

10

It’s possible they’re intending to implement something like that when the game isn’t in beta and thus can be counted on to not, say, randomly crash or hang and not let you leave a screen.

11

I’m a big believer in “Make the game you want to make, people will either play it that way or they won’t.”

In SS’s case, they designed it this way so it must be part of their vision. If a player opts to cheat the system, that is their prerogative to do so and developers (of SP games) shouldn’t necessarily go out of their way to prevent them unless it’s a glaringly obvious exploit that even legit players struggle to avoid.

I’ve been a beneficiary of savescumming in SS. I do it in most games I can because my first real play of the game is to see where the thresholds are. THEN I go back and play it straight. And there’s some parts of Sunless Sea I’d have never seen without that capability, whole lines of storylets I’d have never, EVER, explored without the ability to circumvent some things. So, I appreciate the ability to do so, and I don’t really think FB should worry about me doing it. Cheating is cheating, and people essentially cheating themselves of the game experience FB wanted, to a degree, isn’t something they should actively try to prevent. I won’t blame them if they do, of course. There are reasons to clamp down on savescumming. But there’s a reason most devs don’t bother, and that’s because to lock it down is to actively dissuade some players from playing the game at all.

12

[quote=Nenjin]I’m a big believer in &quotMake the game you want to make, people will either play it that way or they won’t.&quot

In SS’s case, they designed it this way so it must be part of their vision. If a player opts to cheat the system, that is their prerogative to do so and developers (of SP games) shouldn’t necessarily go out of their way to prevent them unless it’s a glaringly obvious exploit that even legit players struggle to avoid.

I’ve been a beneficiary of savescumming in SS. I do it in most games I can because my first real play of the game is to see where the thresholds are. THEN I go back and play it straight. And there’s some parts of Sunless Sea I’d have never seen without that capability, whole lines of storylets I’d have never, EVER, explored without the ability to circumvent some things. So, I appreciate the ability to do so, and I don’t really think FB should worry about me doing it. Cheating is cheating, and people essentially cheating themselves of the game experience FB wanted, to a degree, isn’t something they should actively try to prevent. I won’t blame them if they do, of course. There are reasons to clamp down on savescumming. But there’s a reason most devs don’t bother, and that’s because to lock it down is to actively dissuade some players from playing the game at all.[/quote]

&quotIn SS’s case, they designed it this way so it must be part of their vision.&quot They designed Sunless Sea in such a way as to avoid consequences from bad decisions? The game is far from complete with many missing features and bugs. I can forgive savescumming on merciful mode, but I don’t think that the same logic can be applied to an actual mode in the game(Unforgiving) that can be exploited in the exact same way.

&quotBut there’s a reason most devs don’t bother, and that’s because to lock it down is to actively dissuade some players from playing the game at all.&quot There is merciful mode for a reason. Right now there is absolutely no risk to playing Unforgiving mode because of abused auto saves. Like I said before, why keep this in the game on Unforgiving mode? I’m not sure why so many others are opposed to the idea to have an actually difficult mode. If someone isn’t looking for a difficult game in SS then there is an option. Having the game subtlety autosave at every decision ingame would be a very easy system to implement and would restrict those that would exploit it. Leaving that exploit untouched makes Unforgiving mode incredibly easy and therefore pointless. You simply can’t justify a difficulty mode that can be cheated. I’m hoping that WormApotheote is right that this is just an oversight that will be fixed later.

[li]

13

i don’t want to be boring, BUT, if you wanto stick to a way of playing (Unforgiving, Merciful or what else it could be) you just have to…
When i play an RPG (a real one) i made my decision like i would be THAT character, if i chose to be a Legal Evil Char, i act like a Legal Evil Char, also if i lose the reward, when i am playing RTS like Rome Total War i CHOOSE to not realod and repeat any battle.
The fact that you chould exploit some mechanics in a PERSONAL ACHIEVEMENT(and i repeat, it’s a personal an single player game, where you could chose “unforgiving” JUST for the challenge of not being able to reload)it’s just stupid.
To me, it’s not a priority to be OBLIGED to do so if it’s whati i WANT to do. Of ourse, if the want/could do it’s better, but it’s not a priority.

How many times have you played a game in hardcore mode (like the old DIablo II) also if there wasn’t any “hardcaore mode”? You just choose to restart the game the first time you die.
If you want to cheat, you could cheat via savegame editing, with trainers and stuff…and i’ve done it (for example edited my savegame to have the baker only Panther, just to see what it is) but it’s a personal choiche…

14

I’m surprised more people aren’t agreeing with Atom. Unforgiving mode is clearly broken in its current state.

The problem is a matter of simple psychology. Many people will want the long-term thrill and sense of immersion that an unforgiving mode would give, but virtually everyone* gets upset when they make a bad decision or their hard work gets erased. Immediately after something bad happens, like, say, getting ripped apart by an angry lorn fluke, most people will wish that the bad thing could be undone. And it can be undone! One just has to reload the game. The short-term desire to have one’s character not be dead and to avoid immense frustration will override the long-term desire to play in such a way that enhances immersion and gives choices meaningful consequences. And, unless there is a significant barrier to reloading the game, the player will satisfy the short-term desire and forgo the long-term pleasure. Right now (or at least the last time I played, which was a while ago) the barrier is almost non-existent.

I know how my own psychology works, and I know I won’t have the will power to not reload a dead character, so playing in unforgiving mode failed in its intended goals (for me). The main effect that it had on my game was to make reloading a slightly more tedious process, while at the same time feeding my obsessive desire for trinkets. It’s presence therefore made the game less fun than if it had been entirely absent.

I really hope that Failbetter gets unforgiving mode sorted out, as the last time I played the game it devolved into really tedious save-scumming really quickly.

*Of course, what do I know about everyone? I can really only extrapolate.

15

Of course it’s not working like intended* but i think you’re just overanalyzing.
If you’re obsessed by trinkets and achievement (or you’re just a pack rat, just like me in many games) BUT you cannot resist the temptation to cheat or exploit game mechanics…well, it’s your problem.
Everyone have a personal limit in “exploiting” things, some if the option is not right there desist, other will naturally go to understending game files, modding and so on (so do I), but it’s a personal taste.
I’m not saying it should not be addressed (and it could) but it’s the last thing in the process, since it’s not automatically gamebreaking or immersion breaking, YOU could choose to exploit it or not.

16

I don’t care for the current implementation of unforgiving mode, but saving after every single decision seems like overkill. At that point, the save icon alone would get obnoxious! I think the rogue-like delete-save-on-load is the way to go. Of course players can use their own self-discipline to avoid rerolling, but the same can be said of every other major exploit, and games still try to fix or avoid them. IMO using rerolling to avoid death or alter other random outcomes while playing in Invictus mode is a major exploit which should be closed. Merciful mode is available for people who want to reroll.

On a related but slightly different topic, I think it would be pretty neat to have a mode which is halfway between merciful and unforgiving: one in which you can only save while in London. Of course, just like eschewing rerolling, any player can do this as a personal decision. But I think it would be nice to have the game itself support it.

17

[quote=Frenzgyn]i don’t want to be boring, BUT, if you wanto stick to a way of playing (Unforgiving, Merciful or what else it could be) you just have to…
When i play an RPG (a real one) i made my decision like i would be THAT character, if i chose to be a Legal Evil Char, i act like a Legal Evil Char, also if i lose the reward, when i am playing RTS like Rome Total War i CHOOSE to not realod and repeat any battle.
The fact that you chould exploit some mechanics in a PERSONAL ACHIEVEMENT(and i repeat, it’s a personal an single player game, where you could chose &quotunforgiving&quot JUST for the challenge of not being able to reload)it’s just stupid.
To me, it’s not a priority to be OBLIGED to do so if it’s whati i WANT to do. Of ourse, if the want/could do it’s better, but it’s not a priority.

How many times have you played a game in hardcore mode (like the old DIablo II) also if there wasn’t any &quothardcaore mode&quot? You just choose to restart the game the first time you die.
If you want to cheat, you could cheat via savegame editing, with trainers and stuff…and i’ve done it (for example edited my savegame to have the baker only Panther, just to see what it is) but it’s a personal choiche…[/quote]

Frenzgyn, I don’t think you really read my other posts based on what you’re saying. There is a reason why Failbetter put in a option of Merciful or Unforgiving mode. Merciful allows you to save your game and use that to your advantage if something bad happens to your captain. Unforgiving is SUPPOSED to be a mode that forgives no bad decision making and allows no retries at all. It is a personal choice to go with either mode and Unforgiving is no doubt the hardcore version of Merciful. Abusing the option to reload the game removes the challenge completely from both modes. Merciful mode doesn’t need this exploit because you can save the game anyway while it completely undermines Unforgiving mode by making it possible to avoid consequences for your actions.

If you want to exploit this mode using mods or a save game editor then there is not a lot that can be done for that, seeing that this is a strictly single player game. However, the game itself should not allow any exploits within the game that remove the challenge from having an Unforgiving mode.

The developers clearly stated that their influences for Sunless Sea on the kickstarter were &quotFTL; Don’t Starve; Strange Adventures in Infinite Space; Sid Meier’s Pirates; Taipan; Elite; roguelikes; the Crimson Permanent Assurance; the irish immrama myths.&quot They clearly intended Sunless Sea to be somewhat of a difficult game when you consider the difficulty of those titles. Unforgiving mode is a way to truly bring that roguelike element to the game by making it impossible to go back on a decision as simple as buying some supplies for your ship.

I forgot to mention this before but Fallen London always auto saves after every decision you make in game, it is possible to repeat some events but that would cost more Action Points which are somewhat lengthy in getting back especially when you have 20 maximum. What if Fallen London did what SS is doing? The game would cease to be easy, the only limitation being how many points you have and how many times you are willing to reload the game.

Unforgiving mode is broken, plain and simple. I don’t mind getting a useless token but I want the game to actually make it difficult for me to exploit it. I don’t expect this problem to be fixed anytime soon but it still bothers me how this hasn’t been addressed when a very simple solution I might add would be to expand the checkpoint system to be like Fallen London. In Sunless Sea it would be a little different like say the Dark Souls checkpoint system to where it saves but is impossible to notice as there is no UI to speak of that tells you it is saving Unless you save and quit the game.This would avoid the UI getting in the way and make it so that all your choices can’t be circumvented by doing something so boringly simple as reloading the game.[li]
edited by Atom Stratomsk on 8/10/2014

18

[quote=cjo]I don’t care for the current implementation of unforgiving mode, but saving after every single decision seems like overkill. At that point, the save icon alone would get obnoxious! I think the rogue-like delete-save-on-load is the way to go. Of course players can use their own self-discipline to avoid rerolling, but the same can be said of every other major exploit, and games still try to fix or avoid them. IMO using rerolling to avoid death or alter other random outcomes while playing in Invictus mode is a major exploit which should be closed. Merciful mode is available for people who want to reroll.

On a related but slightly different topic, I think it would be pretty neat to have a mode which is halfway between merciful and unforgiving: one in which you can only save while in London. Of course, just like eschewing rerolling, any player can do this as a personal decision. But I think it would be nice to have the game itself support it.[/quote]

That sounds interesting to say the least, it would mean that the only way to save progress would be to save and quit while going straight to the main menu would flat out delete your save. While I believe that an expanded checkpoint system (With invisible auto save UI to not be distracting) would be better, that is just as viable for a roguelike experience. A third mode where you can only save in Fallen London sounds a bit closer on the spectrum to Unforgiving in terms of difficulty but the idea of a third mode sounds pretty cool seeing as only two difficulty modes is a bit underwhelming. [li]
edited by Atom Stratomsk on 8/10/2014

19

Atom, i’m sorry if i seemed rude, it was not in my intentions, i’ve read all the post and i understand that of course it’s not working as intended.

The point that i hardly disagree is another.

And that’s true, abusing every exploit removes the challenge, but, as i have said you could choose to use it or not, you are not forced in anyway to abuse that mechanic and that’s the reason WHY it’s not yet addressed and i think it’s not a priority, because it’s not directly gamebreaking or immersion breaking.

The difference between me and you is in this sentence:

For me, it doesn’t matter, if i want exploit something it’s easy to edit two or three file in 1 minute and i have that particular things, but in my REAL gameplay i don’t do it, because i like challegne etc, i’ve messed with gamefile just because i like to understand game mechanic and how the game keep track of variables and so one.
If i want the game to make difficult for me to exploit that, i would praise for encrypted gamefiles instead of plain text one.
Of course this is just an example, it’s a different matter, 'cause we are talking of game MODE , not things outside of the game, but i would just like to explain better what i think.
I just don’t need &quotcops&quot controlling if i’m playing legit or not, for me it make no difference, that’s it.

Of course it’s a matter of personal choice, i was just surprised that you guys takes this matter so seriously, nor that it’s good or bad.

20

For my own opinion I don’t understand just why this is such a big deal. Sure, it’s exploitable but most games have something like that and since it’s a single player game why does it matter? No one is going to know if you cheat or just play without save-scumming except yourself and it’s not like you have a compulsion to abuse every single exploit you find until the game breaks. It’s a personal choice and not something the developers should be concerned about in my opinion.