Alexis Kennedy's Cultist Simulator

[quote=Clifton Royston]Speculations on the Hours

I should say right out that I expect most of these speculations into the possible natures of some hours, including some barely mentioned hours, to be way off. But… if all goes well, we’ve still got months to wait for the game. I thought I’d play around a little with tabulating what little information we’ve got, and adding uninformed speculation to the mix.

There are several parts to these speculations:

  • One is to assume that the number of the Hour might have some correspondence to an associated hour of the day. It may not! Their numbering may be completely unrelated to their ordering, and we don’t even know if the Hours have a correspondence to time as we know it. (Except for Moth, where we’re told explicitly.)[/li][li]A second is to assume that the Hour’s number might have some connection to the corresponding cards of the traditional Tarot trumps. Again, it may not! (In one case, we have an intriguing association for the Witch and Sister, but that might be just that one card.) But perhaps the Tarot trump can give us a bit of clue into its flavor or personality, or something to build on.[/li][li]A third is to assume that the Hour’s name, and meanings we can independently learn for that name, e.g. by wild Google searches, browsing Borges, or what-have-you, may have some association with its nature or flavor. Again, that may be as wrong as assuming that a guy named Rex (or girl named Regina) necessarily has a royal demeanor and sense of dignity. But we’ve got to start somewhere, and we have far too much time to kill between now and the initial release, right?[/li][li]Remember: &quotSome Hours are malevolent. Some just embody passions too strong for human life. All are very dangerous.&quot

So here we go:

0. The Moth.
Hour of time = 12:00 midnight (official lore)
Possible Tarot correspondence = 0 The Fool. (Air; The Fool can symbolize questing, seeking, so chaos and yearning is a good fit!)
Lore: &quotThe Moth’s Hour is midnight. It is the first God-who-was-blood. It seeks among the trees of the Wood; it beats within the skull; it is dappled.&quot
“The Glory is a question, and the Moth always answers Yes. …&quot [De Horis vol I]
The principle of Moth: &quotI knew a man who captured moths in a bell-jar. On nights like this, he would release them one by one to die in a candle. [Moth is the wild and perilous principle of chaos and yearning]&quot Associated with Passion.
Further things we think we know: The Moth is not simply an expression of the insect; it has creepy hands.
It’s an Hour of the Wood. &quotThis volume deals mostly with the Hours of the Wood: the Moth, the Black-Flax, the Ring-Yew, among others.&quot [De Horis vol I]
Certain people can have affinity with the Moth. &quotI ran crying into the night and I recollected myself only curled among the roots and blades of the Wood. To that episode, I ascribe my affinity with the Moth…” [‘Around 1890, in the Third History…’]
Search: Not even going to try searching this; &quotmoth&quot will pull up far too much to sort through.

Speculation: Moth seems to be what this game is all about, doesn’t it? Impossibly powerful yearning, and yearning for the impossible. To quote Archy, but at the same time i wish / there was something i wanted / as badly as he wanted to fry himself. Speaking of which, I’m still hoping to have another dream about The Wood.

I. The Door in the Eye.
Hour of time = possibly 1:00 am.
Possible Tarot correspondence = I. The Magician (Mercury)
Lore: &quotThe Door in the Eye, which illuminates, which navigates, which is not compassionate. The Watchman is the Door in the Eye. He opens the way for the willing and for the unwilling. He is often the first Hour that we supplicate. He is always in white.&quot
This associates the Door in the Eye with the Watchman, hence the rite of the Watchman’s Sorrow
&quotEACH HOUR HAS ITS COLOUR. EACH FLAME HAS ITS FUEL. I’ve walked behind the Watchman; I’ve seen his shadow on the stone. This is the first step in understanding the shaping of fate. If I had more time, I could learn to walk the Mansus; gather disciples; find the star-shattered fane; watch the Hours walk; grow Long.&quot [One victory condition, alpha]
Search: Can’t find anything seemingly meaningful, other than some wonderfully scrambled metaphors (&quotWorking at _ is a great way to get your foot in the door in the eye industry&quot) and references to a historical novel &quotThe Eye in the Door&quot.

Speculation: &quotI’ve walked behind the Watchman&quot somehow suggests to me that it would turn out a Bad Business Indeed if he were to see you. (cf. Neepy Thang and the Bird of the Difficult Eye.) Even so, the Watchman as Magician seems a plausible correspondence, offering a risk worth taking to gain an introduction to the powers of the Mansus. (&quotthe first Hour that we supplicate&quot, &quotthe first step in understanding the shaping of fate.&quot)

II. The Black-Flax.
Hour of time = possibly 2:00 am.
Possible Tarot correspondence = II. The High Priestess (Moon)
Lore: &quotThe Glory is a question… The Black-Flax’s answer is No, and that is always its answer.” [De Horis vol I]
It’s an Hour of the Wood. &quotThis volume deals mostly with the Hours of the Wood: the Moth, the Black-Flax, the Ring-Yew, among others.&quot [De Horis vol I]
It’s an older Hour, and opposes the Crowned Growth. &quotI thank the Sun for the Horned Axe, the Black-Flax, the other older Hours. Without them I wonder whether we might not all be the Growth.&quot [‘Around 1890, in the Third History…’]
Search: I can’t find anything seemingly meaningful by searching for black flax or Black-Flax, just information about decorative varieties of flax plants or flax clothing.

Wild speculation: On that &quotNo&quot… perhaps this Hour’s nature is that it seeks to freeze and preserve things exactly as they are, or allow them to change only at a glacial rate? That would make it an opposite of Moth, in one sense, and also make it an opponent of the Crowned Growth. Or perhaps (drawing from the High Priestess symbolism) it seeks to protect Mysteries and keep them from investigation and encroachment.
AA: Since the Moth answers &quotYes&quot to the question of the Glory and seeks the Light, to a seemingly self-destructive degree (Moth to the candle flame), I think the Black-Flax’s &quotNo&quot indicates that it actively moves away from or avoids the Light. Which seemingly puts it at odds with not only the Moth but also the rest of the Woods, which arises from the foundations of the world and reaches towards the Glory.

III. The Ring-Yew.
Hour of time = possibly 3:00 am.
Possible Tarot correspondence = III. The Empress (Venus, femininity)
Lore: It’s an Hour of the Wood. &quotThis volume deals mostly with the Hours of the Wood: the Moth, the Black-Flax, the Ring-Yew, among others.&quot [De Horis vol I]
Search: I can’t find anything seemingly meaningful, other than bow-makers discussing the importance of following the rings in the wood when making a bow from yew. Or is it about yews planted in a ring, as one does, if one is a Druid?

No speculations as yet.

IV. The Thunderskin.
Hour of time = possibly 4:00 am.
Possible Tarot correspondence = IV. The Emperor (Aries)
Lore: &quotThe Thunderskin is the Heart Relentless, who does not permit conclusion. With the Mother of Ants, he is among the chiefest Gods-from-flesh. He cannot be stilled; he demands the dance; he is beaten, like a drum. Red and blue are his colours. He is heard in the Wood below the world.&quot
Principle of Heart: &quotThe Heart Relentless beats to protect the skin of the world we understand.&quot [The Heart is the principle that continues and preserves]
The Thunderskin is canonically the source or patron of coffee. (Thanks to Anne Auclair for her Lore question!)
Search: can’t find anything seemingly meaningful, just a lot of game skins, phone case skins etc.

Wild speculation: &quotHe demands the dance.&quot Might one of the Thunderskin’s particular dangers be as the source of the Tarantella, the fairy-tale-like (but historically attested) contagious mental disease causing people to dance themselves to death? Perhaps then along with coffee, he would also be the source or patron of MDMA and other stimulant drugs?
AA: Presumably depressants and hallucinogens are patronized by opposing powers, as they make you still or take you out of the world. I also wonder if the Heart Relentless being the patron of coffee means that it is actively hostile towards dreaming. For it is within dreams that you glimpse what lies beneath the skin of the world, and the Heart wants the skin preserved.

V. The Mother of Ants.
Hour of time = possibly 5:00 am.
Possible Tarot correspondence = V. The Hierophant (or the Pope in older decks) (Taurus)
Lore: &quotI need rest and nourishment, if I am to recover. But the Mother of Ants looks kindly on wounds.&quot [Injury text, alpha]
&quotTo open the way, one must first open oneself. This practice outlines that opening, in the name of the Mother of Ants.&quot [Consent of Wounds]
&quot…the Mother of Ants … is among the chiefest Gods-from-flesh.&quot (Lore text for the Thunderskin)
Principle: probably Knock, due to Consent of Wounds? but not completely confirmed.
&quotThe Knock permits no seal and no isolation. It thrusts us gleefully out of the safety of ignorance. [the knock is the principle that opens doors and exposes secrets]&quot
Search: We’ve been kicking this one around already. From the St. Agnes reference in the Addendum from ‘Hints to Travellers in Italy’, we’ve teased out a connection to Anguitia/Agnitia, a serpent-associated healing goddess of Roman times. More directly, there is or was a New World snake called ‘Mother of Ants’ by the Aztecs, as reported by an early Spanish naturalist. Some online sources call the amphisbaena (serpent with head on both ends) the Mother of Ants, but even if the amphisbaena association is a mistake as I think, there’s definitely some connection with serpents.

Speculation: Can’t come up with anything yet, though I feel we should be able to from what we have.

VI. The Witch and Sister.
Hour of time = possibly 6:00 am (I want it to be midnight, but that’s the Moth’s)
Possible Tarot correspondence = VI. The Lovers. (Gemini, and the Witch and Sister is associated with the Geminiad, so this definitely works.)
Lore: &quotThe Witch-and-Sister unites what is at rest. She is sought at the water’s edge and beneath the moon. She cannot be touched; she cannot be separated; she is pearl, coral, amber.&quot
&quotThey are seen in dreams, particularly when one dreams before a cracked and uncovered mirror. On nights of the greater moon they arise from the lake and generate unwanted multiple births, inspire follies of passion, and blend flesh to flesh. The locals turn for protection to St Agnes, but I have seen that they also make poppets – of two heads and four arms – to placate the lake-witches.&quot
Opposed by the Mother of Ants: &quotThe locals turn for protection to St Agnes… In my dizziness and fear my Italian had all but abandoned me, but I understood this: ‘the Twins! You have kissed the Twins!’&quot [Addendum from ‘Hints to Travellers in Italy’]
Search: Didn’t find anything relevant, outside of CS links.

Speculation: We’ve got a little taste of this Hour now - their nature governs forces including lust, mad sex, multiple or conjoined births, but also watery depths (coral and pearl), gems resulting from transformation (pearl and amber), and perhaps tentacled creatures (note the border of the card image.) But I still don’t feel like we have a clear picture of her/them.

IX. The Cartographer of Scars.
Hour of time = possibly 9:00 am.
Possible Tarot correspondence = IX. The Hermit (Virgo)
Lore: nothing at all as yet?
Search: Can’t find anything relevant.
Nothing to speculate on as yet.

XII. The Sun-In-Rags.
Hour of time = possibly noon (which sort of works, for a Sun god of sorts.)
Possible Tarot correspondence = XII. The Hanged Man. (Water; The Hanged Man can symbolize self-sacrifice, which might fit with those beautiful endings.)
Lore: &quotThe Sun-in-Rags concludes endings beautifully. He is usually reckoned one of the Gods-from-Light; but Julian Cosely (the seventeenth-century magus and reputed immortal) has indicated he should in fact be numbered among the Gods-from-blood. He burns; he is distant; he is not as he was. He wears gold and red.&quot
&quotSOL INVICTUS. This was the title of Mithras, but also Hercules, Apollo, and of course Heliogabalus / Elagabulus, who was briefly worshipped in Rome. Briefly along the Second History, anyway. His mortal incarnation was a pretty sorry specimen, although he’s believed to have passed the Stag Door, and at least to have been accounted a Know.&quot [Kickstarter announcement email]
Search: It’s easy to find a plethora of material on the mortal Marcus Antoninus/Elagabalus, as we’ve been discussing. He came rapidly to a bad (but interesting) end - he could be the prototype of &quotLive fast, die young, leave a good-looking corpse.&quot Other characteristics of the mortal Antoninus Elagabalus in our history: mentioned by Borges in ‘The Lottery in Babylon’, where he’s claimed to have held lotteries for his dinner guests; deified briefly after his death, like several of the more successful Emperors; famously decadent and spend-thrift; bisexual and possibly transgender - some biographers claimed he referred to himself as a woman, and to one of his lovers as his husband. Who knows whether any of this bears on the Hour, though.
One nice hit on ‘Sun in Rags’ is the John Donne poem, ‘The Sun Rising’ (&quotBusy old fool, unruly sun…&quot) which contains the phrase &quotNor hours, days, months, which are the rags of time.&quot Hmmm.

Speculations: This Hour would seem wonderful to be associated with - for a little while. Might the existence of the Sun-in-Rags have something to do with the Sun itself having been &quotsplit&quot as noted in the Lore for the Forge of Days and Red Grail? Are the rags of the Sun-In-Rags the &quotrags of time&quot? &quotBriefly along the Second History, anyway&quot implies a couple of interesting possibilities to me: 1) We’re living in the Second History. 2) In another History or Histories, the god Elagabal/Elagabalus was worshipped for much longer, or perhaps still is.
AA: Maybe the Forge of Days and the Red Grail teamed up to split the Sun. That would explain why the Sun-in-Rags is associated with both Light and Blood.
XVII. The Red Grail.
Hour of time = possibly 5:00 pm.
Possible Tarot correspondence = XVII. The Star (Aquarius; that correspondence really doesn’t work for me!)
Lore: &quotThe Red Grail seeks to devour and be devoured.&quot [Kickstarter page]
“We must devour to be devoured. We cannot be undevoured, as we cannot be unborn.” [The Orchid Transfigurations]
&quotI need rest and nourishment, if I am to recover. But when my mouth waters, when my vision swims, I see the red cup, and now and then it will speak to me.&quot [Starvation card text]
&quotHere am I, alone on the night of my victory, my end. The Grail has opened its mouth. It will not forget my savour. It will not forget.&quot [Victory text, web prototype]
&quotHersault says the Red Grail split the sun. Coseley proposes it was the Forge of Days. They both agree that now, it’s sunset at noon.&quot [Noonstone text, web prototype]
The principle of Grail – Hunger, lust, the drowning waters. &quotThe principle of the Red Grail demands to be fed.&quot
Search: A passing reference to the ‘Red Grail’ in the Charles Williams poem ‘Son of Lancelot’, in a context where red means hunger - very interesting. Might be more to find, if we dig further.

Speculations: In the web prototype, of course, we learn a lot about the character of the Red Grail and one form of dangerous relationship to it - opening ones mind to it is spectacularly deadly for oneself and others, in full apocalyptic style. I speculate that a less disastrous relationship with the Red Grail might be possible for the particularly skilled and well-balanced mage who could keep its allure at arms’ length, at least for a while, though it will always be a particularly dangerous Hour. It is at least plausible to some of the Know or Long that it is powerful enough to damage the sun.

XXII. The Forge of Days.
Hour of time = possibly 10:00 pm (though I kind of want this to be sunset or dawn?)
No traditional Tarot correspondence by number (though I kind of wish it were XXI. The World.)
Lore: “Even the Sunne can be divided, though it require the Forge of Dayes for its division.” [‘Six Letters on Necessity’, Coseley]
&quotMouth the scorching words and dream of smoke.&quot [Meditate on the Forge of Days, web prototype]
&quotIn this past, a score or more of Longs were made. They brokered peace with the Forge of Days, long enough to set England on a path of early conquest and eventual destruction. The Forge itself devoured the greatest among them.&quot [‘A History of the War of the Roads’, web prototype]
&quotHersault says the Red Grail split the sun. Coseley proposes it was the Forge of Days. They both agree that now, it’s sunset at noon.&quot [Noonstone text, web prototype]
Principle of Forge: ‘Fire,’ I once read, ‘is the winter that warms and the spring that consumes.’ [The Forge of Days transforms and destroys]
Search: Nothing relevant, other than links back to Cultist Simulator posts. (First mentioned in July 2016, before the first web prototype.)

Speculation: &quotThe winter that warms and spring that consumes&quot is fascinating - at first glance one might read it the natural way (it warms the winter) but it’s saying the opposite. It’s clear from the very little we know that this must be another particularly dangerous Hour. Cosely (a Know and probably a Long) argues that it split and damaged the sun, and it &quotdevoured&quot the greatest among a group of powerful Longs. If the Forge seeks to transform and destroy, then that’s surely not going to be pleasant for those so transformed. As yet, though, we don’t know much about its character (other than hungry for fuel) or what it can do by way of transformation, though clearly its power can greatly affect history.
AA: It might also have ultimately consumed Coseley as well. It’s one of the last things he wrote about before…well, whatever happened to him (&quotCoseley’s tone is urgent – as if he suspected he might have little time left.&quot), and his letters are explicitly about the costs of the invisible arts…

XXVII. The Crowned Growth.
Probably a secret hour, not one of the regular 24. (This is probably a good thing from what we know of it.)
No possible Tarot correspondences.
Lore: &quotI shall say there was a river flowing through the door. It was not a river, and neither was it pus, nor joy, but when I tried to articulate it better, my pen snapped in my hand. … The Rising Spider wishes dominion, but the Growth wishes only to infect and become. I do not believe the Bounds are the limbs of the House, but I must aver that the Dead that night had become the limbs of the Crowned Growth.&quot [‘Around 1890, in the Third History…’]
Search: First hit is the blog lore post ‘Around 1890…’ followed by the discussions in here. Apart from that, things about mammal tooth growth patterns, various trees’ growth (Eastern Redbud, Ponderosa Pine, Cox Orange Apple), business awards, and again something about bowmaking; nothing that seems relevant.

Speculation: More terrible than evil - the Hour of cancer (the disease not the sign), of Internet flash worms, of infectious memes, of the hive mind.

The Beachcrow. Unknown number (possibly XI or XIII?)
Possible Tarot correspondences, XI Justice (or Temperance), or XIII Death.
Lore: nothing at all as yet?
Search results: Nothing suggestive - lots of photos of crows on the beach; an interrogation of a serial killer; some nice poems by Ursula K. LeGuin. http://www.ursulakleguin.com/Poetry-Crows.html Nothing too revealing or provoking an Aha! moment, but the poems are good.

Really wild speculation: Raven? Is that you? (Probably not, seems too obvious.)

The least-known hours as yet:

The Lionsmith. Unknown number.
Lore: &quotThe Lionsmith makes monsters, that he may grow strong and stronger.&quot [Kickstarter main page]
Search: Nothing that seems helpful or relevant; mostly turns up references to jazz stride pianist Willie &quotThe Lion&quot Smith, who I’ll have to check out.
Nothing to speculate on as yet.

The Colonel. Unknown number.
Lore: &quotTHE COLONEL IS SCARRED. THE COLONEL IS BLIND. THE COLONEL CANNOT BE EVADED.&quot [email, early web page?]
Search: Not going to try searching this; I expect it will pull up too much.
Nothing to speculate on as yet.

The Flowermaker. Unknown number.
Lore: &quotTHE FLOWERMAKER CANNOT HARM YOU. THE FLOWERMAKER CANNOT FIND YOU. THE FLOWERMAKER HAS WHAT YOU DESIRE.&quot [email, early web page?]
No other mentions I’m aware of.
Search: Possibly connected? In the 1800s, flowermakers were the people who made artificial decorative flowers, and often ended up poisoned by arsenic pigments and dyes. https://books.google.com/books?id=re4pCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA94&lpg=PA94&dq=The+Flowermaker
Nothing to speculate on as yet.

The Rising Spider. Unknown number.
Lore: &quotThe Rising Spider wishes dominion…&quot [‘Around 1890, in the Third History…’]
Mentioned in passing as hypothetical DLC in a Kickstarter update. &quotthen if I have a better idea a year from now (‘Rising Spider DLC would be way more interesting than Crowned Growth DLC’) …&quot
No other mentions I’m aware of.
Search: Can’t find anything relevant as yet. The quoted lore piece itself already turns up by page 5 of a Google search.

Speculation: I like spiders, generally speaking, and yet even with nothing to go on, I suspect that the Rising Spider might be one of the more malevolent Hours.

The Horned Axe. Unknown number.
Lore: It’s an older Hour, and opposes the Crowned Growth. &quotI thank the Sun for the Horned Axe, the Black-Flax, the other older Hours. Without them I wonder whether we might not all be the Growth.&quot [‘Around 1890, in the Third History…’]
No other mentions I’m aware of.
Search: There was a type of ancient Norse axe called Snaghyrnd Øx, translated &quotSnag-Horned Axe&quot, and in general the points of a curved-bladed Viking battle-axe may have been referred to as horns.

Wild speculation: Does this Hour embody the ancient battle weapon? Is it an Hour of battle itself?

I think I’m done. Go wild.

[Edited to incorporate many of Anne Auclair’s additions and comments]
edited by cliftonr on 9/22/2017[/quote]
The Colonel sounds like it is the hour of the edge end it could be another name for an hour.

Alexis has released a tentative, preliminary outline for a possible schedule, sharing some more future game content in the process.

[quote=The Mucal Rose Update]Core roles and the Earliest Perpetual Edition

I’m determined not to nail down a project schedule until I have final budget at the end of this month, but I’m not going to sit on my hands either. So this is my current thinking about the content side of the schedule. Each ‘role’ is a general activity in the game. They’re not character classes - you may switch many times between these activities.

October, MACHEN: the Scholar role.
November, RENAULT: the Magus and Guru roles.
December, BEARDSLEY: the Artist and Lover roles.
January, HAGGARD: the Explorer and Ghoul roles
February, WHARTON: Householder and Family content

I’d expect to get an itch.io Refinery, early early access, more content to come, Perpetual Edition build in your hands around February, before or after Wharton (probably after, if it slips, and I think my planning for December is optimistic). But this is TBC.

It is very possible I’ll put a build out earlier. It depends how fun the game is as I go, and how much I need feedback. There’s a tradeoff here between providing early builds and getting valuable feedback, and getting more work done sooner.

I have thoughts about what comes after February, but I’ll talk about those another time.[/quote]
Machen is clearly Arthur Machen, the author of The Great God Pan (which I’ve read elsewhere was one of the influences behind the Captivating Princess - does anyone know if that is true?) and many other tales of secret supernatural things. He also apparently published some &quotscholarly&quot work on the Celtic Church and the Holy Grail, so he fits the scholar role fairly well.

Renault is Mary Renault, who Alexis praised pretty intensely in his book livestream:

In being the face of the Magus and the Guru, i.e. the magician and cult leader, Mary Renault is being given real pride of place in the lineup.

Next, representing artists and their lovers, we have the great illustrator Audrey Beardsley, who among other things illustrated a cover for The Great God Pan:

For the explorer and ghoul roles we have the author Sir Henry Rider Haggard, who apparently helped pioneer the lost world genre? I confess to being completely unfamiliar with him. Is anyone here familiar with his work?

Wharton is the name attached to householder and family content… Um, perhaps Duke Philip Wharton, one of the founders of the infamous Hellfire Club, which despite it’s name was little more than an elite English drinking society?
edited by Anne Auclair on 9/23/2017

I’ve read Haggard’s first two She novels.

The first was a riproaring “two heroic Victorians exploring Africa” tale, about using academia to discover Dangerous Truths, a tale of an eternal love that endured throughout millenia, and a very intelligent empress who has plans to take over the world that are undone only by said love. There is a hint of a three-way love affair, for She’s beauty is such that even the middle-aged Conan Doyle type narrator can’t quite resist her charms.

The second is set twenty years later, somewhere in Tibet, and is rather more meditative. Eons-old conflict, discussions of reincarnation, rather more hints of the triple love affair, and She gets an even better plan together to take over the world…which is undone by love. Again.
edited by Teaspoon on 9/23/2017

I’ve been looking through Charles Williams a bit more and I’ve found a couple more correspondences in the vein I described: Charles Williams - Charles Williams - Google Books

&quotthe Grail cooped for gustation and God for his glory&quot (page 67), &quotthe red carnivorous violation of intellectual love, and the frozen earth on which they ran and starved&quot (68), and the bit about King Pelles, who is wounded and bleeding and, in his delirium, has the hungers of a wolf (65-66).

There’s a lot of stuff about wolves and werewolves which ties into the hunger and such - is there any hint of anything related to that part in Cultist Simulator?
edited by illuminati swag (Benthic) on 9/23/2017

[quote=Clifton Royston]XVII. The Red Grail.
Hour of time = possibly 5:00 pm.
Possible Tarot correspondence = XVII. The Star (Aquarius; the Aquarius correspondence really doesn’t work for me!) However, in some illustrations (e.g. the Thoth deck) the Star is shown as a naked woman pouring from an elaborate chalice, though in most she is pouring water out of pitchers or jugs.
Lore: &quotThe Red Grail seeks to devour and be devoured.&quot [Kickstarter page]
“We must devour to be devoured. We cannot be undevoured, as we cannot be unborn.” [The Orchid Transfigurations]
&quotI need rest and nourishment, if I am to recover. But when my mouth waters, when my vision swims, I see the red cup, and now and then it will speak to me.&quot [Starvation card text]
&quotHere am I, alone on the night of my victory, my end. The Grail has opened its mouth. It will not forget my savour. It will not forget.&quot [Victory text, web prototype]
&quotHersault says the Red Grail split the sun. Coseley proposes it was the Forge of Days. They both agree that now, it’s sunset at noon.&quot [Noonstone text, web prototype]
The principle of Grail – Hunger, lust, the drowning waters. &quotThe principle of the Red Grail demands to be fed.&quot
Search: illuminati swag (Benthic) found a passing reference to a ‘Red Grail’ in the Charles Williams poem ‘Son of Lancelot’, in a context where red means hunger - very interesting. Might be more to find, if we dig further.

Speculations: In the web prototype, of course, we learn a lot about the character of the Red Grail and one form of dangerous relationship to it - opening ones mind to it is spectacularly deadly for oneself and others, in full apocalyptic style. I speculate that a less disastrous relationship with the Red Grail might be possible for the particularly skilled and well-balanced mage who could keep its allure at arms’ length, at least for a while, though it will always be a particularly dangerous Hour. It is at least plausible to some of the Know or Long that it is powerful enough to damage the sun.[/quote]

Worth adding that the Red Grail also oversees birth:

This becomes particularly interesting considering the fact that the Witch-and-Sister’s titular Witches,

[quoteAddendum excised from Sir William Colt Hoare’s Hints to Travellers in Italy, 1815.]On the matter of the witches. They are seen in dreams, particularly when one dreams before a cracked and uncovered mirror. On nights of the greater moon they arise from the lake and generate unwanted multiple births, inspire follies of passion, and blend flesh to flesh. The locals turn for protection to St Agnes, but I have seen that they also make poppets – of two heads and four arms – to placate the lake-witches.[/quote]
Are, as stated above, known to cause multiple births, perhaps inflicting a condition similar to the Witch-and-Sister’s depiction on the tarot card?

If the Red Grail is indeed connected to the Church of St Agnes and the Serpent, this could illustrate some of the differences between the Red Grail’s and the Witch-and-Sister’s takes on childbirth, love, lust and other such matters.

(It is kinda amusing for me that the Red Grail could be one of the more conservative hours, trying to stay away from deviant children and supporting a church of a chaste virgin saint. Guess all the fasting, flagellation and general higher-power-seeking that went on are a really big draw for the Hour of Hunger.)
edited by Vavakx Nonexus on 9/23/2017

This is really important, actually, as a confirmation of the connection between the Red Grail and Charles Williams - the specific poem from which I’ve been drawing the Grail quotes is about the birth of Lancelot’s son, and connects the birth with the themes of hunger (through wolves and the Lupercal).

[quote]
If the Red Grail is indeed connected to the Church of St Agnes and the Serpent, this could illustrate some of the differences between the Red Grail’s and the Witch-and-Sister’s takes on childbirth, love, lust and other such matters.

(It is kinda amusing for me that the Red Grail could be one of the more conservative hours, trying to stay away from deviant children and supporting a church of a chaste virgin saint. Guess all the fasting, flagellation and general higher-power-seeking that went on are a really big draw for the Hour of Hunger.)
edited by Vavakx Nonexus on 9/23/2017[/quote]
St. Agnes is the Mother of Ants rather than the Red Grail, but that’s definitely an interesting comparison to draw. The &quotred carnivorous violation of intellectual love&quot in The Son of Lancelot seems to suggest that the Grail isn’t particularly chaste, though.
edited by illuminati swag (Benthic) on 9/23/2017

MACHEN: I’ve read a lot of Machen and clearly Alexis has too. I think I suggested a year or so ago (on r/weatherfactory) that the flavor of the Noon lore reminded me of Machen more than HPL, and he agreed to that (but noted Lord Dunsany is even more of an influence.) If you have never read any Machen, my favorite book and a great starting point is ‘The Three Impostors’, a &quotstories within stories&quot kind of tale - some fantastic tales of horror, mystery, and adventure, except in context most of them are lies, except the ones that aren’t. ‘The Great God Pan’ is another well worth reading, and there are some good fantasy/horror short stories too. If you keep reading from there, his writing shades gradually from fantasy into realistic fiction - with nice prose, but a lot less memorable. (Just noting for the rest of you, because if you’re reading one of his less-known books and wondering &quotwhen does the fantasy or horror start?&quot very possibly it doesn’t.)

RENAULT: I know I read a couple of Mary Renault’s books in my teens, and they’ve since gone completely out of my head. It may be that I wasn’t ready to appreciate them at that age. [Makes note to schedule one or more for a re-read.]

BEARDSLEY: Beardsley! What more to say? Well, lush, grotesque, decadent-looking art, often vividly erotic, and emphasizing both male and female sexuality as the subject of gaze. His pictures imply bisexuality, though Wikipedia claims he was regarded by his friends as more asexual. I think his choice as icon for Artist and Lover reconfirms that Cultist Simulator will be for all orientations.

HAGGARD: Haggard’s ‘The Mines of King Solomon’ is another rip-roaring adventure read; I read ‘She’ too, but that was a long time ago. They are 19th century, and you have to be able to tolerate 19th century racial attitudes to get through them, but as I recall Haggard at least demonstrated some genuine respect for the &quotnatives&quot. Generally though I think HAGGARD denotes far-flung adventuring and tomb raiding.

I think WHARTON has to be Edith Wharton, American novelist of manners and short story writer, who was publishing from roughly 1900 through the '30s. I’m afraid I’ve never read any of her books so I can’t comment on them.

Only one more week to go. If you’re not usually a kickstarter person, but think you’ll buy the game, then you should totally contribute 10 pounds (approximately 13 dollars American) for the Believer package and its Perpetual Edition. You’ll get all future Cultist Simulator DLC free forever, making it a pretty good deal.

[quote=Clifton Royston]MACHEN: I’ve read a lot of Machen and clearly Alexis has too. I think I suggested a year or so ago (on r/weatherfactory) that the flavor of the Noon lore reminded me of Machen more than HPL, and he agreed to that (but noted Lord Dunsany is even more of an influence.) If you have never read any Machen, my favorite book and a great starting point is ‘The Three Impostors’, a &quotstories within stories&quot kind of tale - some fantastic tales of horror, mystery, and adventure, except in context most of them are lies, except the ones that aren’t. ‘The Great God Pan’ is another well worth reading, and there are some good fantasy/horror short stories too. If you keep reading from there, his writing shades gradually from fantasy into realistic fiction - with nice prose, but a lot less memorable. (Just noting for the rest of you, because if you’re reading one of his less-known books and wondering &quotwhen does the fantasy or horror start?&quot very possibly it doesn’t.)

RENAULT: I know I read a couple of Mary Renault’s books in my teens, and they’ve since gone completely out of my head. It may be that I wasn’t ready to appreciate them at that age. [Makes note to schedule one or more for a re-read.]

BEARDSLEY: Beardsley! What more to say? Well, lush, grotesque, decadent-looking art, often vividly erotic, and emphasizing both male and female sexuality as the subject of gaze. His pictures imply bisexuality, though Wikipedia claims he was regarded by his friends as more asexual. I think his choice as icon for Artist and Lover reconfirms that Cultist Simulator will be for all orientations.

HAGGARD: Haggard’s ‘The Mines of King Solomon’ is another rip-roaring adventure read; I read ‘She’ too, but that was a long time ago. They are 19th century, and you have to be able to tolerate 19th century racial attitudes to get through them, but as I recall Haggard at least demonstrated some genuine respect for the &quotnatives&quot. Generally though I think HAGGARD denotes far-flung adventuring and tomb raiding.

I think WHARTON has to be Edith Wharton, American novelist of manners and short story writer, who was publishing from roughly 1900 through the '30s. I’m afraid I’ve never read any of her books so I can’t comment on them.[/quote]

Haggard i’m guessing it’s a combination of the far flung on the 19th centuries adventures what you got to put in the ghoul dimension there. The Kickstarter reference is a natural appetites so it could be the price of power or immortality as we sing and She i’m just gonna limp here.

Wharton has nothing remotely adventurous mystical or anything At all like that. The majority of her novels and Novelas Are about upper class drama of New York society in the early 20th century being a woman during the social climbing the drama of marriage etc. but she also wrote many books about Interior designing and house management. This implies there’s gonna be a lot of drama around relationships interesting ways of interacting with property and the drama involving a that. And mind you this game does take place in the 20th century and mostly Mediterranean Or western cities. I can see this cutting into having a marriage as a cover for your more homoerotic affairs. There’s a lot of narrative room in this for the mundane alone. Mind you I’m speculating from reading what her books say about her in her Wikipedia page.
edited by JoelMB12 on 9/24/2017
edited by JoelMB12 on 9/24/2017

I’ve been trying to see what the easiest way to get my hands on Taliessin through Logres is, but unfortunately it looks like the best option, unfortunately, is the Google Books preview I linked, since it’s pretty expensive to buy: lowest cost is in the $20s and I don’t know what condition that’s in, most expensive includes some other relevant essays and is $90. The libraries in my area don’t have it for checkout, there’s one copy in a library 20 minutes away that I could read in the library but couldn’t take with me. The Google Books preview will suffice, it’s just a bit annoying to work with, and there’s no public domain pure text version as far as I can tell. It seems like it probably went public domain in 2015 but hasn’t been made available in that way, I guess.

If anyone has any suggestions for free or cheap ways to get it outside of the Google Books preview, preferably something where the text can be copied, I’d be very interested.

Also, did anyone transcribe/summarize the livestream in which he describes his literary influences? I’d like to hear what he has to say about Williams; if Williams isn’t mentioned there then that’s even more interesting.

Edit: while skimming through the stream to see if he mentioned Williams (he didn’t), I noticed something very interesting in his discussion of Tanith Lee - her writing apparently had a lot of themes of &quotpriests and wolves and blood and snow, and sex&quot. This is pretty much exactly the stuff I’ve been noticing in The Son of Lancelot. So maybe it wasn’t so much an intentional omission as a longer trail of influences. Maybe Tanith Lee was influenced by Charles Williams or maybe they were both influenced by the Red Grail but either way that’s a mention of wolves and snow in connection to CultSim and especially in the context of stuff associated with the Red Grail. It’s a bit too late for me to think about the full implications but there’s definitely something important there.

Edit edit: a quick Google didn’t seem to point at all to Charles Williams influencing Tanith Lee. Obviously wolves and blood and snow and hunger are closely related, but when Alexis cites Tanith Lee as an inspiration and talks about those themes in her work while the name of an Hour associated with some of those is in a poem with even stronger examples of those themes, something seems to be up. This is not a coincidence because nothing is ever a coincidence, but also because even with a more mundane mindset there’s much to be made of these connections. Maybe it’s just the Arthurian stuff, but are starving wolves really that closely associated with the birth of Lancelot’s son outside of Williams, let alone with the Fisher-King? It doesn’t seem like they are.
edited by illuminati swag (Benthic) on 9/24/2017

  1. See if you can borrow it through inter-library loan? Nearly all public libraries participate and it’s awesome.
  2. It looks like AbeBooks has one used copy of the same edition I have, for $11. Taliessin Through Logres by Charles Williams - AbeBooks
  3. Otherwise, if you can do Kindle content (e.g. on your phone) then there’s this for $7: https://smile.amazon.com/Taliessin-Through-Logres-Region-Summer-ebook/dp/B01N7BQXLS/ref=sr_1_12?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1506228240&sr=1-12&keywords=charles+williams

If you’re going to read ‘Taliessin through Logres’ you might as well try read ‘The Region of the Summer Stars’ too; they’re mystifying and amazing, and I can’t say I understand them but I mostly kind of let them wash over me.

[quote=Clifton Royston]1. See if you can borrow it through inter-library loan? Nearly all public libraries participate and it’s awesome.
2. It looks like AbeBooks has one used copy of the same edition I have, for $11. Taliessin Through Logres by Charles Williams - AbeBooks
3. Otherwise, if you can do Kindle content (e.g. on your phone) then there’s this for $7: https://smile.amazon.com/Taliessin-Through-Logres-Region-Summer-ebook/dp/B01N7BQXLS/ref=sr_1_12?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1506228240&sr=1-12&keywords=charles+williams

If you’re going to read ‘Taliessin through Logres’ you might as well try read ‘The Region of the Summer Stars’ too; they’re mystifying and amazing, and I can’t say I understand them but I mostly kind of let them wash over me.[/quote]
Thanks a lot for the recommendations! I’m sure I can’t borrow it through inter-library loan - I’m not sure whether there’s one copy or a few that are different editions but all at the same library, but either way they’re filed under &quotReference&quot and, as far as I can tell, not allowed to be taken from the library at all.

I happen to have a Kindle, and that would be a much better interface than the Google Books so maybe I’ll just drop the $7 on that version.

A good collection of Charles Williams’s books (out of copyright in Canada and the EU, but not in the US) can be found at the following Canadian site:
http://www.fadedpage.com/index.php
Also at Project Gutenberg Canada:
http://gutenberg.ca/index.html

NB Arthurian Torso includes a discussion of his Arthurian poetry by C. S. Lewis.
edited by Jermaine Vendredi on 9/24/2017

Well, the Red Cup is the god of blood, birth and appetite - not lust. And when it comes to appetite, the Grail is a god of extremes, a deity that presides over both starvation and gluttony. The Catholic Church has many mystics and saints who starved themselves to be closer to god, while plump overeating monks were something of a medieval stock character (Friar Tuck anyone?). So, in the Church you literally have two sides of the same coin, fasting and feasting. And when considering blood and appetite together, I’m somewhat reminded of this little piece of medieval Catholic communion propaganda:

[A] woman cooked a girdle cake which a priest then consecrated on the altar. When she saw this, the woman burst out laughing.

&quotIt seems the girdle cake I made has become the body of Christ. That makes me laugh.&quot

But she wanted to take communion just the same. So the priest prayed God to perform a miracle: and when the priest gave the woman communion, the cake-cum-Host took on the appearance of a child’s finger and the consecrated wine in the chalice looked like coagulated blood. The woman was terrified! She communicated all the more devoutly.

It wouldn’t be hard to interpret stuff like this as the Red Grail finding a discrete place for itself. Not hard at all.

[quote=illuminati swag (Benthic)][quote=Vavakx Nonexus]
If the Red Grail is indeed connected to the Church of St Agnes and the Serpent, this could illustrate some of the differences between the Red Grail’s and the Witch-and-Sister’s takes on childbirth, love, lust and other such matters.
[/quote]
St. Agnes is the Mother of Ants rather than the Red Grail, but that’s definitely an interesting comparison to draw. The &quotred carnivorous violation of intellectual love&quot in The Son of Lancelot seems to suggest that the Grail isn’t particularly chaste, though.[/quote]
The world is ordered by the Hours’ consensus and maneuvers, so a number of them must work together to some extent. What would be a more natural alliance than one between the God of Wounds and the God of Blood? So while Saint Agnes is definitely some sort of servant or incarnation of the Mother of Ants, the Grail having something to do with that little Church isn’t out of the question either.

Where the Hours are concerned I think we should keep in mind the words of the Principles of Coral in Sunless Sea:

There are many alliances. With 24 ruling Hours , 6 extra Hours, and who knows how many Names, Long, Know, and curious ordinary Mortals…there simply have to be alliances.
.
edited by Anne Auclair on 9/24/2017

The only Wharton I’ve read is Ethan Frome.

Which is the most claustrophobic thing I’ve ever read - its New England farm isolation is stifling - and the ending spoilers rests on home being the place of entrapment that stifles even love.

Well, the Red Cup is the god of blood, birth and appetite - not lust. [/quote]
This is one of the things I’m not sure about. The description of the Grail principle includes lust and says it’s the principle of the Red Grail, and seems to be conceptualizing the appetites which the Red Grail oversees as including lust. I haven’t seen anything that implies the Hour is separate from the Red Grail - the description of Grail mentions a &quotred cup&quot with no capitalization.

[quote=Teaspoon]The only Wharton I’ve read is Ethan Frome.

Which is the most claustrophobic thing I’ve ever read - its New England farm isolation is stifling - and the ending spoilers rests on home being the place of entrapment that stifles even love.[/quote]
Thanks for chiming in!

That’s very interesting in context. In the web proto, one of the &quotcards&quot you start with is &quotAn Ordinary Life&quot. Studying it gives you the action &quotConsider my life, so cramped, so constrained&quot and results in &quotRestlessness&quot, which has the description &quotYou must get out. You can’t get out. Must; can’t.&quot Trying to get rid of &quotAn Ordinary Life&quot gives you the action &quotRage at my limitations&quot. Together, these very concisely sketch out a sense of frustration and stifled rage driving your character, which was dropped from the graphic prototype.

It sounds from a synopsis as though some of Wharton’s other books are about how stifling and strangling upper-class respectability is. Maybe this aspect of the game will fit into game context as one of the pressures driving you to escape into magick, cultism, and madness.
edited by cliftonr on 9/25/2017

It’s worth considering that it could be both a completely valid connection, and a completely unconscious one, rather than something he’s hiding or for that matter that Tanith Lee was suppressing. This does really happen a lot for anybody who’s widely read and doing serious art of any kind. It all goes in there and stews around in the subconscious and gets relinked together in weird ways. (That’s even before you start taking into account the Jungian idea of the collective unconscious or Yeats’ Anima Mundi.)

A big example I recognized in the Noon setting is Mary Gentle’s weird fantasy novel Rats and Gargoyles which takes place in a strange city governed by gigantic gargoyles embodying spirits of the zodiacal Decans, each of which has its own strange character and some of which play an important role in the story. Remind you of the Hours at all? In response (on the Kickstarter comments) [quote=Alexis Kennedy]Decans
oh my God that is a bloody inspiration, isn’t it. I read it nearly thirty years ago and I’d forgotten it consciously, but I can see now they fed straight into the idea; and it was R&G that first made me aware of Rosicrucian iconography and natural philosophy and all that fine jazz.[/quote]
Real connection, but I entirely believe him that it was completely unconscious. We should ask him if he’s ever read Charles Williams though, I bet he has.

As far as I know, the theme of Lancelot as a were-wolf is unique to Williams, though Lancelot’s madness shows up in many Arthurian versions. But wolves and blood and snow and sex and lust are all definitely oh-hell-yeah there in many of Tanith Lee’s books, but in completely independent ways and without as far as I know any of them being related to Lancelot or Arthur or the Holy Grail or the Red Grail at all.

It’s worth considering that it could be both a completely valid connection, and a completely unconscious one, rather than something he’s hiding or for that matter that Tanith Lee was suppressing. This does really happen a lot for anybody who’s widely read and doing serious art of any kind. It all goes in there and stews around in the subconscious and gets relinked together in weird ways. (That’s even before you start taking into account the Jungian idea of the collective unconscious or Yeats’ Anima Mundi.)

A big example I recognized in the Noon setting is Mary Gentle’s weird fantasy novel Rats and Gargoyles which takes place in a strange city governed by gigantic gargoyles embodying spirits of the zodiacal Decans, each of which has its own strange character and some of which play an important role in the story. Remind you of the Hours at all? In response (on the Kickstarter comments) [quote=Alexis Kennedy]Decans
oh my God that is a bloody inspiration, isn’t it. I read it nearly thirty years ago and I’d forgotten it consciously, but I can see now they fed straight into the idea; and it was R&G that first made me aware of Rosicrucian iconography and natural philosophy and all that fine jazz.[/quote]
Real connection, but I entirely believe him that it was completely unconscious. We should ask him if he’s ever read Charles Williams though, I bet he has.

As far as I know, the theme of Lancelot as a were-wolf is unique to Williams, though Lancelot’s madness shows up in many Arthurian versions. But wolves and blood and snow and sex and lust are all definitely oh-hell-yeah there in many of Tanith Lee’s books, but in completely independent ways and without as far as I know any of them being related to Lancelot or Arthur or the Holy Grail or the Red Grail at all.[/quote]
I suppose that makes sense, it’s just the combination of those specific themes with that specific phrase that makes it seem intentional. The connection of the phrase &quotRed Grail&quot with blood and hunger, sure, if the phrase stuck in his head then those themes are pretty easy to get from the phrase. Connecting the themes of hunger and blood and birth, sure, it’s more abstract stuff so it’s plausible that they’d. But combining the specific phrase &quotRed Grail&quot with hunger and blood and birth seems to go a bit further.

Another little tidbit: from a recent comment on Kickstarter, it sounds like our characters are going to be able to write books in the game.