[quote=Vexpont] Which presumably means that the Beachcrow’s number isn’t known yet?
[/quote]
Well, that list was taken from Alexis’ twitter (right?) as a countdown to the Kickstarter.
Anne proposed a theory that the Beachcrow is actually XI or XIII, confused with the XII.
Sounds logical and narrows our hunt :)
When does one becomes a Know?
Is a CS player a Know? Should one actually NEEDS to travel towards the Mansus or enter a door to become a Know? Does reading it on forums and computer game enough? Does one need to gather little information of every Hour or a lot of only two of them?
[quote=Gonen]When does one becomes a Know?
Is a CS player a Know? Should one actually NEEDS to travel towards the Mansus or enter a door to become a Know? Does reading it on forums and computer game enough? Does one need to gather little information of every Hour or a lot of only two of them?[/quote]
In the oldest prototype (grey boxes), being a Know means that you’re aware of the Secret Histories (reading about it in an indie game should be enough, if you believe in it!). You start as a Know, and your followers also join the ranks when you share lore with them.
In the current version, and most promotional material Alexis has put out, being a Know means having passed through the Second Door (presumed to be the Stag Door, but not confirmed). Neither you nor your followers are Know, as far as we are aware (We are somewhat likely to be unaware. We never actually got a description of how a Know looks like, did we?).
[quote=Vavakx Nonexus][quote=Gonen]When does one becomes a Know?
Is a CS player a Know? Should one actually NEEDS to travel towards the Mansus or enter a door to become a Know? Does reading it on forums and computer game enough? Does one need to gather little information of every Hour or a lot of only two of them?[/quote]
In the oldest prototype (grey boxes), being a Know means that you’re aware of the Secret Histories (reading about it in an indie game should be enough, if you believe in it!). You start as a Know, and your followers also join the ranks when you share lore with them.
In the current version, and most promotional material Alexis has put out, being a Know means having passed through the Second Door (presumed to be the Stag Door, but not confirmed). Neither you nor your followers are Know, as far as we are aware (We are somewhat likely to be unaware. We never actually got a description of how a Know looks like, did we?).[/quote]
I asked him he said Know Knows Long remains. So do you guys actually wonder what Know,Long,Name are.
The SOL INVICTUS email and the big livestream confirmed it was the Stag Door.
Oh, that was you on the livestream?
We can work out who ‘St. Agnes of the Serpent’ is, mythologically:
It also says that some Classical authors identify Angitia directly with Medea, sorceress supreme, and it’s common for mythological figures to sprout siblings that are basically a single aspect of themselves – in this case, joining/healing.[/quote]
Oh, I like this!
That does explain why the priest treats the possibly infected wound like a snake bite, sucking the infection out.
The SOL INVICTUS email and the big livestream confirmed it was the Stag Door.[/quote]
Thanks for the confirmation. SOL INVICTUS is phrased like they’re two largely unrelated facts, but the livestream is about as direct as it comes.
Besides the very strong cases Vexpont and Anne have made, I now realize there’s another indirect pointer that the second Hour is the Mother of Ants, not the Red Grail:
In the Kickstarter update Alexis wrote, “It references two Hours, one of which has been slightly more obscure to date, as well as a number of setting details. Enjoy!”
The Red Grail is anything but obscure, for anyone who played the first prototype. The Mother of Ants, on the other hand, is much more obscure as yet; we previously knew virtually nothing about her (it?) except the “Consent of Wounds” and the “Injury” text. That makes for a much better fit.
The SOL INVICTUS email and the big livestream confirmed it was the Stag Door.
Oh, that was you on the livestream?[/quote]
That was me I asked about their nature. Gave that little rhyme. 1. There’s us.
2. There’s the Know, who crossed the Stag Door.
3. There are the Long, who don’t end.
4. There are the Names, who are sometimes the emanations of the Hours.
I was not able to hear him clearly because of his connection and his exuberance excitement.
And I got to say your idea about The chain patronage throughout the cosmic hierarchy CS was brilliant!!
[quote=Clifton Royston]Besides the very strong cases Vexpont and Anne have made, I now realize there’s another indirect pointer that the second Hour is the Mother of Ants, not the Red Grail:
In the Kickstarter update Alexis wrote, "It references two Hours, one of which has been slightly more obscure to date, as well as a number of setting details. Enjoy!"
The Red Grail is anything but obscure, for anyone who played the first prototype. The Mother of Ants, on the other hand, is much more obscure as yet; we previously knew virtually nothing about her (it?) except the "Consent of Wounds" and the "Injury" text. That makes for a much better fit.[/quote]
It’s she one of chief God from flesh she specializes it seems like openings of oneself or opening things to others. By it being wound it very nature a painful process. You could arguably link it with the wound causing of motherhood combined with the in numerous legion of workers the queen give birth too.
edited by JoelMB12 on 9/18/2017
[quote=Clifton Royston]Besides the very strong cases Vexpont and Anne have made, I now realize there’s another indirect pointer that the second Hour is the Mother of Ants, not the Red Grail:
In the Kickstarter update Alexis wrote, "It references two Hours, one of which has been slightly more obscure to date, as well as a number of setting details. Enjoy!"
The Red Grail is anything but obscure, for anyone who played the first prototype. The Mother of Ants, on the other hand, is much more obscure as yet; we previously knew virtually nothing about her (it?) except the "Consent of Wounds" and the "Injury" text. That makes for a much better fit.[/quote]
Anne’s right and I’m wrong. I did the rest of my wiki research siege this afternoon, which ironically showed the answer was findable by simple Googling.
Here’s the Mother of Ants:
edit: Mother of Ants is very likely to be a straight pull from Borge’s ‘Book of Imaginary Beings’. I have a copy knocking about. Time to blow the dust off, I fancy.
Bloody repeat-offender Borges bootlegger. Fool me once, shame on you…
edited by Vexpont on 9/18/2017
[quote=Vexpont]edit: Mother of Ants is very likely to be a straight pull from Borge’s ‘Book of Imaginary Beings’. I have a copy knocking about. Time to blow the dust off, I fancy.
Bloody repeat-offender Borges bootlegger. Fool me once, shame on you…[/quote]
There is a whole interesting web of Borges connections here. I finally recalled what had been nagging at me about the reference to Elagabalus/Heliogabalus - he makes an appearance in Borges’ story ‘The Lottery of Babylon’ (found in Ficciones, among other collections) so I thought I should check that out for possible connections:
I’m not sure whether that points us to anything helpful about the Sun-In-Rags or the Know.
On the Amphisbaena, Borges’ Lovecraftian pastiche ‘There Are More Things’, in The Book of Sand, also references an amphisbaena, or something that has the general form of one:
See also (for anyone with both good Latin and very good eyes) ‘The Mother of Ants, or Tzicatlinan’ (Ioannis Eusebii Nierembergii, Historiae Naturae Lib. XII)
https://www.loc.gov/exhibits/exploring-the-early-americas/interactives/historia-naturae/37.html
Then, possibly related to the former source,
source=bl&ots=LA6nrIImC1&sig=piFCpcWQjCQwurnVq7jq8gL_sAY&hl=en&sa=X&
ved=0ahUKEwj1r9WJ2K_WAhUJtJQKHTrDDmAQ6AEIZDAO#v=onepage&
q=%22Mother%20of%20Ants%22&f=false)
So that would be both a "mother of ants", and an amphisbaena (moving in both directions) described adjacently.
You are in a maze of twisty literary passages, all different.
(editing to break up the long Google Books URL which is breaking line wrap.)
edited by cliftonr on 9/18/2017
Further edit: My Latin is pretty poor, but I think that it’s probably a mistake based on the Eusebius text to take ‘Mother of Ants’ for a title of the Amphisbaena; I can piece together a little bit of the Eusebius, and I believe this and the William Walton are citing a similar source. In Eusebius, as with the Walton quote, the section on the Tzicatlinan or "mother of ants" (topic 8) comes before the passage on the macacouatl (topic 9), which is followed by the section De amphisbaena (topic 10) which would therefore be referring to the latter based on its description.
edited by cliftonr on 9/18/2017
I googled "Red Grail" and while most of the results were irrelevant, there’s one that (while also probably irrelevant) interests me. Specifically, "The Son of Lancelot" by Charles Williams mentions "A red Grail in an ivory Logres" (Logres being King Arthur’s territory). Here’s a link to the poem:
And here’s a link to a discussion of themes within the poem: TTL 17: “The Son of Lancelot.” — by Brenton D. G. Dickieson | The Oddest Inkling
Note the apocalyptic themes; in the pre-alpha summoning the Red Grail (one of the win conditions) results in destroying yourself and everything within several miles, and while I don’t remember exactly how things go in the alpha it’s apparently how you get the Power ending. Also, on the same page as the mention of the "red Grail", the color red is associated with hunger just as the Red Grail in CS is associated with hunger: "the red glow of brute famine/in the packed eyes of forest-emerging wolves".
I would call this correspondence a coincidence, except this is Cultist Simulator we’re talking about here. This is not a coincidence because nothing is ever a coincidence.
Here’s a description of the larger work of which The Son of Lancelot is but a part: An Introduction to “Taliessin through Logres” | The Oddest Inkling
edited by illuminati swag (Benthic) on 9/19/2017
So researching these allusions is going to pull me through rereading Charles Williams’ Taliessin through Logres and the rest of the Arthurian cycle, as well as rereading Borges? I guess I can’t complain about either of those.
Note that in the Kickstarter introduction Alexis specifically references ‘The Battle of the Trees’ as an inspiration for the Noon setting. That poem identifies its author and narrator as… Taliessin.
[quote=illuminati swag (Benthic)]I googled "Red Grail" and while most of the results were irrelevant, there’s one that (while also probably irrelevant) interests me. Specifically, "The Son of Lancelot" by Charles Williams mentions "A red Grail in an ivory Logres" (Logres being King Arthur’s territory). Here’s a link to the poem:
And here’s a link to a discussion of themes within the poem: TTL 17: “The Son of Lancelot.” — by Brenton D. G. Dickieson | The Oddest Inkling
Note the apocalyptic themes; in the pre-alpha summoning the Red Grail (one of the win conditions) results in destroying yourself and everything within several miles, and while I don’t remember exactly how things go in the alpha it’s apparently how you get the Power ending. Also, on the same page as the mention of the "red Grail", the color red is associated with hunger just as the Red Grail in CS is associated with hunger: "the red glow of brute famine/in the packed eyes of forest-emerging wolves".
I would call this correspondence a coincidence, except this is Cultist Simulator we’re talking about here. This is not a coincidence because nothing is ever a coincidence.
Here’s a description of the larger work of which The Son of Lancelot is but a part: An Introduction to “Taliessin through Logres” | The Oddest Inkling
edited by illuminati swag (Benthic) on 9/19/2017[/quote]
This is no coincidence I think you’re on the money here My Friend!!!
Speculations on the Hours
I should say right out that I expect most of these speculations into the possible natures of some hours, including some barely mentioned hours, to be way off. But… if all goes well, we’ve still got months to wait for the game. I thought I’d play around a little with tabulating what little information we’ve got, and adding uninformed speculation to the mix.
There are several parts to these speculations:
Recent general notes on the Hours and Principles from the Reddit AMA:[/u]
LordOfEye Q: "Is the House the true dwelling of the hours, or simply the representation that we choose to project on to it? As an extension of that, are the Hours truly knowable by a mortal?"
Alexis Kennedy: "(a) yes (b) is the Mansus truly knowable by a mortal?
Arjhan6 Q: "Was the Great War a victory, defeat, or inconsequential to the various hours?"
Alexis Kennedy: "Depends on the History. But to be less coy, events at that level are of direct interest to the Hours."
Maniph Q: "What exactly are the Hours? What’s the Mansus? What is air? What’s eight divided by zero?"
Alexis Kennedy: "The enumeration of action. The House of the Sun. Unheard music. A feast untouched."
space_communism Q: "… Do Gods-From-Flesh originate as human occultists or otherwise come from our reality?"
Alexis Kennedy: "That is a reasonable suspicion to suspect."
Amestria Q: "There are 7 occult principles which you can use to found a cult. Each principle is represented by a sort of iconic Hour. Then there are 23 additional Hours, each with very distinct desires and personalities. … How are you planning on channeling all this cosmic diversity through seven cult choices?"
Alexis Kennedy: "There are seven so far; also Poseidon is not the only God in the sea; also, things are different since the Intercalate."
Notes: "Poseidon is not the only God in the sea" is I think a specific allusion to The King Must Die, in which it becomes quite significant that there is a sea goddess worshiped elsewhere, unconnected with Poseidon. To me, he’s implying that there might be several completely different Hours embodying the same principle but in completely different ways and interpretations. I don’t know about the Intercalate, as this seems to be the first reference to it. intercalate: (v.) 1. interpolate (an intercalary period) in a calendar. 2. insert (something) between layers in a crystal lattice, geological formation, or other structure.
So here we go:
0. The Moth.
Hour of time = 12:00 midnight (official lore)
Possible Tarot correspondence = 0 The Fool. (Air; The Fool can symbolize questing, seeking, so chaos and yearning is a good fit!)
Lore: "The Moth’s Hour is midnight. It is the first God-who-was-blood. It seeks among the trees of the Wood; it beats within the skull; it is dappled."
“The Glory is a question, and the Moth always answers Yes. …" [De Horis vol I]
The principle of Moth: "I knew a man who captured moths in a bell-jar. On nights like this, he would release them one by one to die in a candle. [Moth is the wild and perilous principle of chaos and yearning]" Associated with Passion.
Further things we think we know: The Moth is not simply an expression of the insect; it has creepy hands.
It’s an Hour of the Wood. "This volume deals mostly with the Hours of the Wood: the Moth, the Black-Flax, the Ring-Yew, among others." [De Horis vol I]
Certain people can have affinity with the Moth. "I ran crying into the night and I recollected myself only curled among the roots and blades of the Wood. To that episode, I ascribe my affinity with the Moth…” [‘Around 1890, in the Third History…’]
Search: Not even going to try searching this; "moth" will pull up far too much to sort through.
Speculation: Moth seems to be what this game is all about, doesn’t it? Impossibly powerful yearning, and yearning for the impossible. To quote Archy, but at the same time i wish / there was something i wanted / as badly as he wanted to fry himself. Speaking of which, I’m still hoping to have another dream about The Wood.
I. The Door in the Eye.
Hour of time = possibly 1:00 am.
Possible Tarot correspondence = I. The Magician (Mercury)
Lore: "The Door in the Eye, which illuminates, which navigates, which is not compassionate. The Watchman is the Door in the Eye. He opens the way for the willing and for the unwilling. He is often the first Hour that we supplicate. He is always in white."
This associates the Door in the Eye with the Watchman, hence the rite of the Watchman’s Sorrow
"EACH HOUR HAS ITS COLOUR. EACH FLAME HAS ITS FUEL. I’ve walked behind the Watchman; I’ve seen his shadow on the stone. This is the first step in understanding the shaping of fate. If I had more time, I could learn to walk the Mansus; gather disciples; find the star-shattered fane; watch the Hours walk; grow Long." [One victory condition, alpha]
Search: Can’t find anything seemingly meaningful, other than some wonderfully scrambled metaphors ("Working at _ is a great way to get your foot in the door in the eye industry") and references to a historical novel "The Eye in the Door".
Speculation: "I’ve walked behind the Watchman" somehow suggests to me that it would turn out a Bad Business Indeed if he were to see you. (cf. Neepy Thang and the Bird of the Difficult Eye.) Even so, the Watchman as Magician seems a plausible correspondence, offering a risk worth taking to gain an introduction to the powers of the Mansus. ("the first Hour that we supplicate", "the first step in understanding the shaping of fate.")
II. The Black-Flax.
Hour of time = possibly 2:00 am.
Possible Tarot correspondence = II. The High Priestess (Moon)
Lore: "The Glory is a question… The Black-Flax’s answer is No, and that is always its answer.” [De Horis vol I]
It’s an Hour of the Wood. "This volume deals mostly with the Hours of the Wood: the Moth, the Black-Flax, the Ring-Yew, among others." [De Horis vol I]
It’s an older Hour, and opposes the Crowned Growth. "I thank the Sun for the Horned Axe, the Black-Flax, the other older Hours. Without them I wonder whether we might not all be the Growth." [‘Around 1890, in the Third History…’]
Search: I can’t find anything seemingly meaningful by searching for black flax or Black-Flax, just information about decorative varieties of flax plants or flax clothing.
Wild speculation: On that "No"… perhaps this Hour’s nature is that it seeks to freeze and preserve things exactly as they are, or allow them to change only at a glacial rate? That would make it an opposite of Moth, in one sense, and also make it an opponent of the Crowned Growth. Or perhaps (drawing from the High Priestess symbolism) it seeks to protect Mysteries and keep them from investigation and encroachment.
Anne Auclair: Since the Moth answers "Yes" to the question of the Glory and seeks the Light, to a seemingly self-destructive degree (Moth to the candle flame), I think the Black-Flax’s "No" indicates that it actively moves away from or avoids the Light. Which seemingly puts it at odds with not only the Moth but also the rest of the Woods, which arises from the foundations of the world and reaches towards the Glory.
III. The Ring-Yew.
Hour of time = possibly 3:00 am.
Possible Tarot correspondence = III. The Empress (Venus, femininity)
Lore: It’s an Hour of the Wood. "This volume deals mostly with the Hours of the Wood: the Moth, the Black-Flax, the Ring-Yew, among others." [De Horis vol I]
Search: I can’t find anything seemingly meaningful, other than bow-makers discussing the importance of following the rings in the wood when making a bow from yew. Or is it about yews planted in a ring, as one does, if one is a Druid?
No speculations as yet.
IV. The Thunderskin.
Hour of time = possibly 4:00 am.
Possible Tarot correspondence = IV. The Emperor (Aries)
Lore: "The Thunderskin is the Heart Relentless, who does not permit conclusion. With the Mother of Ants, he is among the chiefest Gods-from-flesh. He cannot be stilled; he demands the dance; he is beaten, like a drum. Red and blue are his colours. He is heard in the Wood below the world."
Principle of Heart: "The Heart Relentless beats to protect the skin of the world we understand." [The Heart is the principle that continues and preserves]
The Thunderskin is canonically the source or patron of coffee. (Thanks to Anne Auclair for her Lore question!)
Search: can’t find anything seemingly meaningful, just a lot of game skins, phone case skins etc.
Wild speculation: "He demands the dance." Might one of the Thunderskin’s particular dangers be as the source of the Tarantella, the fairy-tale-like (but historically attested) contagious mental disease causing people to dance themselves to death? Perhaps then along with coffee, he would also be the source or patron of MDMA and other stimulant drugs?
AA: Presumably depressants and hallucinogens are patronized by opposing powers, as they make you still or take you out of the world. I also wonder if the Heart Relentless being the patron of coffee means that it is actively hostile towards dreaming. For it is within dreams that you glimpse what lies beneath the skin of the world, and the Heart wants the skin preserved.
V. The Mother of Ants.
Hour of time = possibly 5:00 am.
Possible Tarot correspondence = V. The Hierophant (or the Pope in older decks) (Taurus)
Lore: "I need rest and nourishment, if I am to recover. But the Mother of Ants looks kindly on wounds." [Injury text, alpha]
"To open the way, one must first open oneself. This practice outlines that opening, in the name of the Mother of Ants." [Consent of Wounds]
"…the Mother of Ants … is among the chiefest Gods-from-flesh." (Lore text for the Thunderskin)
Principle: probably Knock, due to Consent of Wounds? but not completely confirmed.
"The Knock permits no seal and no isolation. It thrusts us gleefully out of the safety of ignorance. [the knock is the principle that opens doors and exposes secrets]"
Search: We’ve been kicking this one around already. From the St. Agnes reference in the Addendum from ‘Hints to Travellers in Italy’, Vexpont teased out a connection to Angitia/Anguitia, a serpent-associated healing goddess of Roman times. More directly, there is or was a New World snake called ‘Mother of Ants’ by the Aztecs, as reported by an early Spanish naturalist. Some online sources call the amphisbaena (serpent with head on both ends) the Mother of Ants, but even if the amphisbaena association is a mistake as I think, there’s definitely some connection with serpents.
Speculation: Can’t come up with anything yet, though I feel we should be able to from what we have.
VI. The Witch and Sister.
Hour of time = possibly 6:00 am (I want it to be midnight, but that’s the Moth’s)
Possible Tarot correspondence = VI. The Lovers. (Gemini, and the Witch and Sister is associated with the Geminiad, so this definitely works.)
Lore: "The Witch-and-Sister unites what is at rest. She is sought at the water’s edge and beneath the moon. She cannot be touched; she cannot be separated; she is pearl, coral, amber."
"They are seen in dreams, particularly when one dreams before a cracked and uncovered mirror. On nights of the greater moon they arise from the lake and generate unwanted multiple births, inspire follies of passion, and blend flesh to flesh. The locals turn for protection to St Agnes, but I have seen that they also make poppets – of two heads and four arms – to placate the lake-witches."
Opposed by the Mother of Ants: "The locals turn for protection to St Agnes… In my dizziness and fear my Italian had all but abandoned me, but I understood this: ‘the Twins! You have kissed the Twins!’" [Addendum from ‘Hints to Travellers in Italy’]
Search: Didn’t find anything relevant, outside of CS links.
Speculation: We’ve got a little taste of this Hour now - their nature governs forces including lust, mad sex, multiple or conjoined births, but also watery depths (coral and pearl), gems resulting from transformation (pearl and amber), and perhaps tentacled creatures (note the border of the card image.) But I still don’t feel like we have a clear picture of her/them.
IX. The Cartographer of Scars.
Hour of time = possibly 9:00 am.
Possible Tarot correspondence = IX. The Hermit (Virgo)
Lore: nothing at all as yet?
Search: Can’t find anything relevant.
Nothing to speculate on as yet. (Sounds creepy, though.)
XII. The Sun-In-Rags.
Hour of time = possibly noon (which sort of works, for a Sun god of sorts.)
Possible Tarot correspondence = XII. The Hanged Man. (Water; The Hanged Man can symbolize self-sacrifice, which might fit with those beautiful endings.)
Lore: "The Sun-in-Rags concludes endings beautifully. He is usually reckoned one of the Gods-from-Light; but Julian Cosely (the seventeenth-century magus and reputed immortal) has indicated he should in fact be numbered among the Gods-from-blood. He burns; he is distant; he is not as he was. He wears gold and red."
"SOL INVICTUS. This was the title of Mithras, but also Hercules, Apollo, and of course Heliogabalus / Elagabulus, who was briefly worshipped in Rome. Briefly along the Second History, anyway. His mortal incarnation was a pretty sorry specimen, although he’s believed to have passed the Stag Door, and at least to have been accounted a Know." [Kickstarter announcement email]
Search: It’s easy to find a plethora of material on the mortal Marcus Antoninus/Elagabalus, as we’ve been discussing. He came rapidly to a bad (but interesting) end - he could be the prototype of "Live fast, die young, leave a good-looking corpse." Other characteristics of the mortal Antoninus Elagabalus in our history: mentioned by Borges in ‘The Lottery in Babylon’, where he’s claimed to have held lotteries for his dinner guests; deified briefly after his death, like several of the more successful Emperors; famously decadent and spend-thrift; bisexual and possibly transgender - some biographers claimed he referred to himself as a woman, and to one of his lovers as his husband. Who knows whether any of this bears on the Hour, though.
One nice hit on ‘Sun in Rags’ is the John Donne poem, ‘The Sun Rising’ ("Busy old fool, unruly sun…") which contains the phrase "Nor hours, days, months, which are the rags of time." Hmmm.
Speculations: This Hour would seem wonderful to be associated with - for a little while. Might the existence of the Sun-in-Rags have something to do with the Sun itself having been "split" as noted in the Lore for the Forge of Days and Red Grail? Are the rags of the Sun-In-Rags the "rags of time"? "Briefly along the Second History, anyway" implies a couple of interesting possibilities to me: 1) We’re living in the Second History. 2) In another History or Histories, the god Elagabal/Elagabalus was worshipped for much longer, or perhaps still is.
AA: Maybe the Forge of Days and the Red Grail teamed up to split the Sun. That would explain why the Sun-in-Rags is associated with both Light and Blood.
XVII. The Red Grail.
Hour of time = possibly 5:00 pm.
Possible Tarot correspondence = XVII. The Star (Aquarius; the Aquarius correspondence really doesn’t work for me!) However, in some illustrations (e.g. the Thoth deck) the Star is shown as a naked woman pouring from an elaborate chalice, though in most she is pouring water out of pitchers or jugs.
Lore: "The Red Grail seeks to devour and be devoured." [Kickstarter page]
“We must devour to be devoured. We cannot be undevoured, as we cannot be unborn.” [The Orchid Transfigurations]
"I need rest and nourishment, if I am to recover. But when my mouth waters, when my vision swims, I see the red cup, and now and then it will speak to me." [Starvation card text]
"Here am I, alone on the night of my victory, my end. The Grail has opened its mouth. It will not forget my savour. It will not forget." [Victory text, web prototype]
"Hersault says the Red Grail split the sun. Coseley proposes it was the Forge of Days. They both agree that now, it’s sunset at noon." [Noonstone text, web prototype]
"WHAT IS BELOW CAN’T ESCAPE WHAT IS ABOVE. The Red Grail is the Hour of blood and of birth. It has touched me, and I’ve gained a little of its power. If I had more time, I could draw disciples to me; grow fierce with blood and delight; be the herald of a new age; use that power to ascend to a secret throne, one day." [Power victory condition, alpha]
The principle of Grail – Hunger, lust, the drowning waters. "The principle of the Red Grail demands to be fed."
Search: illuminati swag (Benthic) found a passing reference to a ‘Red Grail’ in the Charles Williams poem ‘Son of Lancelot’, in a context where red means hunger - very interesting. Might be more to find, if we dig further.
Speculations: In the web prototype, of course, we learn a lot about the character of the Red Grail and one form of dangerous relationship to it - opening ones mind to it is spectacularly deadly for oneself and others, in full apocalyptic style. I speculate that a less disastrous relationship with the Red Grail might be possible for the particularly skilled and well-balanced mage who could keep its allure at arms’ length, at least for a while, though it will always be a particularly dangerous Hour. It is at least plausible to some of the Know or Long that it is powerful enough to damage the sun.
Vavakx Nonexus: Worth adding that the Red Grail also oversees birth […] If the Red Grail is indeed connected to the Church of St Agnes and the Serpent, this could illustrate some of the differences between the Red Grail’s and the Witch-and-Sister’s takes on childbirth, love, lust and other such matters. (It is kinda amusing for me that the Red Grail could be one of the more conservative hours, trying to stay away from deviant children and supporting a church of a chaste virgin saint. Guess all the fasting, flagellation and general higher-power-seeking that went on are a really big draw for the Hour of Hunger.)
Illuminati swag (Benthic): This is really important, actually, as a confirmation of the connection between the Red Grail and Charles Williams - the specific poem from which I’ve been drawing the Grail quotes is about the birth of Lancelot’s son, and connects the birth with the themes of hunger (through wolves and the Lupercal). St. Agnes is the Mother of Ants rather than the Red Grail, but that’s definitely an interesting comparison to draw. The "red carnivorous violation of intellectual love" in The Son of Lancelot seems to suggest that the Grail isn’t particularly chaste, though.
AA: Well, the Red Cup is the god of blood, birth and appetite - not lust. And when it comes to appetite, the Grail is a god of extremes, a deity that presides over both starvation and gluttony. The Catholic Church has many mystics and saints who starved themselves to be closer to god, while plump overeating monks were something of a medieval stock character (Friar Tuck anyone?). So, in the Church you literally have two sides of the same coin, fasting and feasting.
Alexis Kennedy: [Answering "Was … Charles Williams a conscious inspiration for the Red Grail, the hour of blood and hunger and birth?"]
"no, and when I dropped by the thread on the Failbetter boards I was interested to see the comparisons drawn. But I have read other Williams; I have read a lot of Lewis, who as you probably know was a reciprocated fan of Williams and a fellow traveller; I have read a certain amount of Arthurian poetry and commentary (Ritual to Romance, Green Knight, and so forth); I’m sure there are influences crossing back and forth. but mostly I think if you’re writing on certain themes, you end up drinking from some of the same wells."
XXII. The Forge of Days.
Hour of time = possibly 10:00 pm (though I kind of want this to be sunset or dawn?)
No traditional Tarot correspondence by number (though I kind of wish it were XXI. The World.)
Lore: “Even the Sunne can be divided, though it require the Forge of Dayes for its division.” [‘Six Letters on Necessity’, Coseley]
"Mouth the scorching words and dream of smoke." [Meditate on the Forge of Days, web prototype]
"In this past, a score or more of Longs were made. They brokered peace with the Forge of Days, long enough to set England on a path of early conquest and eventual destruction. The Forge itself devoured the greatest among them." [‘A History of the War of the Roads’, web prototype]
"Hersault says the Red Grail split the sun. Coseley proposes it was the Forge of Days. They both agree that now, it’s sunset at noon." [Noonstone text, web prototype]
Principle of Forge: ‘Fire,’ I once read, ‘is the winter that warms and the spring that consumes.’ [The Forge of Days transforms and destroys]
Search: Nothing relevant, other than links back to Cultist Simulator posts. (First mentioned in July 2016, before the first web prototype.)
Speculation: "The winter that warms and spring that consumes" is fascinating - at first glance one might read it the natural way (it warms the winter) but it’s saying the opposite. It’s clear from the very little we know that this must be another particularly dangerous Hour. Cosely (a Know and probably a Long) argues that it split and damaged the sun, and it "devoured" the greatest among a group of powerful Longs. If the Forge seeks to transform and destroy, then that’s surely not going to be pleasant for those so transformed. As yet, though, we don’t know much about its character (other than hungry for fuel) or what it can do by way of transformation, though clearly its power can greatly affect history.
AA: It might also have ultimately consumed Coseley as well. It’s one of the last things he wrote about before…well, whatever happened to him ("Coseley’s tone is urgent – as if he suspected he might have little time left."), and his letters are explicitly about the costs of the invisible arts…
XXVII. The Crowned Growth.
Probably a secret hour, not one of the regular 24. (This is probably a good thing from what we know of it.)
No possible Tarot correspondences.
Lore: "I shall say there was a river flowing through the door. It was not a river, and neither was it pus, nor joy, but when I tried to articulate it better, my pen snapped in my hand. … The Rising Spider wishes dominion, but the Growth wishes only to infect and become. I do not believe the Bounds are the limbs of the House, but I must aver that the Dead that night had become the limbs of the Crowned Growth." [‘Around 1890, in the Third History…’]
Search: First hit is the blog lore post ‘Around 1890…’ followed by the discussions in here. Apart from that, things about mammal tooth growth patterns, various trees’ growth (Eastern Redbud, Ponderosa Pine, Cox Orange Apple), business awards, and again something about bowmaking; nothing that seems relevant.
Speculation: More terrible than evil itself - the Hour of cancer (the disease not the sign), of Internet flash worms, of infectious memes, of the hive mind.
The Beachcrow. Unknown number (possibly XI or XIII?)
Possible Tarot correspondences, XI Justice (or Temperance), or XIII Death.
Lore: nothing at all as yet?
Search results: Nothing suggestive - lots of photos of crows on the beach; an interrogation of a serial killer; some nice poems by Ursula K. LeGuin. http://www.ursulakleguin.com/Poetry-Crows.html Nothing too revealing or provoking an Aha! moment, but the poems are good.
Really wild speculation: Raven? Is that you? (Probably not, seems too obvious.)
The least-known hours as yet:
The Lionsmith. Unknown number.
Lore: "The Lionsmith makes monsters, that he may grow strong and stronger." [Kickstarter main page]
"Q: What manner of beings are crafted / spawned / shaped / pulled-into-existence by the Lionsmith? To what extent are any of them, ah, lions?
A: The things he sends against the Colonel, IIRC. To at least some extent, at least some of them are lions.
Q: That begs the question who is the Colonel?
A: The Lionsmith’s opponent." [Reddit AMA]
Search: Nothing that seems helpful or relevant; mostly turns up references to jazz stride pianist Willie "The Lion" Smith, who I’ll have to check out.
Nothing to speculate on as yet.
The Colonel. Unknown number.
Lore: "THE COLONEL IS SCARRED. THE COLONEL IS BLIND. THE COLONEL CANNOT BE EVADED." [email, early web page?]
"Q: What manner of beings are crafted / spawned / shaped / pulled-into-existence by the Lionsmith? To what extent are any of them, ah, lions?
A: The things he sends against the Colonel, IIRC. To at least some extent, at least some of them are lions.
Q: That begs the question who is the Colonel?
A: The Lionsmith’s opponent." [Reddit AMA]
Search: Not going to try searching this; I expect it will pull up too much.
Nothing to speculate on as yet.
JoelMB12: The Colonel sounds like it is the hour of the edge
The Flowermaker. Unknown number.
Lore: "THE FLOWERMAKER CANNOT HARM YOU. THE FLOWERMAKER CANNOT FIND YOU. THE FLOWERMAKER HAS WHAT YOU DESIRE." [email, early web page?]
No other mentions I’m aware of.
Search: Possibly connected? In the 1800s, flowermakers were the people who made artificial decorative flowers, and often ended up poisoned by arsenic pigments and dyes. https://books.google.com/books?id=re4pCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA94&lpg=PA94&dq=The+Flowermaker
Nothing to speculate on as yet.
The Rising Spider. Unknown number.
Lore: "The Rising Spider wishes dominion…" [‘Around 1890, in the Third History…’]
Mentioned in passing as hypothetical DLC in a Kickstarter update. "then if I have a better idea a year from now (‘Rising Spider DLC would be way more interesting than Crowned Growth DLC’) …"
No other mentions I’m aware of.
Search: Can’t find anything relevant as yet. The quoted lore piece itself already turns up by page 5 of a Google search.
Speculation: I like spiders, generally speaking, and yet even with nothing to go on, I suspect that the Rising Spider might be one of the more malevolent Hours.
The Horned Axe. Unknown number.
Lore: It’s an older Hour, and opposes the Crowned Growth. "I thank the Sun for the Horned Axe, the Black-Flax, the other older Hours. Without them I wonder whether we might not all be the Growth." [‘Around 1890, in the Third History…’]
No other mentions I’m aware of.
Search: There was a type of ancient Norse axe called Snaghyrnd Øx, translated "Snag-Horned Axe", and in general the points of a curved-bladed Viking battle-axe may have been referred to as horns.
Wild speculation: Does this Hour embody the ancient battle weapon? Is it an Hour of battle itself? (And I think an axe would have to be connected with the principle of the Edge.) [Updated] After rereading Mary Renault’s The King Must Die, I am reminded this also might relate to the Labrys, the double-bladed axe which was a sacred symbol in Minoan Crete, associated with goddess worship, and became a symbol of feminism and lesbian rights during the 1970s.
I think I’m done. Go wild.
[Edited to incorporate many of Anne Auclair’s additions and comments]
edited by cliftonr on 9/22/2017
[Edited again to credit a few more people for their ideas and research, and update with a few more minor thoughts]
edited by cliftonr on 9/23/2017
[Edited yet again to add excerpts of some interesting bits from the Red Grail discussion]
edited by cliftonr on 9/27/2017
[Edited again to add the Lionsmith/Colonel lore and other bits from the Reddit AMA, and AK’s official statement on the Charles Williams/Red Grail connection]
edited by cliftonr on 10/2/2017
edited by cliftonr on 10/2/2017
Wow, that is a pretty impressive compilation! Thanks for doing that!
Here are some comments and additions.
[quote=Clifton Royston]II. The Black-Flax.
Hour of time = possibly 2:00 am.
Possible Tarot correspondence = II. The High Priestess (Moon)
Lore: "The Glory is a question… The Black-Flax’s answer is No, and that is always its answer.” [De Horis vol I]
It’s an Hour of the Wood. "This volume deals mostly with the Hours of the Wood: the Moth, the Black-Flax, the Ring-Yew, among others." [De Horis vol I]
It’s an older Hour, and opposes the Crowned Growth. "I thank the Sun for the Horned Axe, the Black-Flax, the other older Hours. Without them I wonder whether we might not all be the Growth." [‘Around 1890, in the Third History…’]
Search: I can’t find anything seemingly meaningful by searching for black flax or Black-Flax, just information about decorative varieties of flax plants or flax clothing.
Wild speculation: On that "No"… perhaps this Hour’s nature is that it seeks to freeze and preserve things exactly as they are, or allow them to change only at a glacial rate? That would make it an opposite of Moth, in one sense, and also make it an opponent of the Crowned Growth. Or perhaps (drawing from the High Priestess symbolism) it seeks to protect Mysteries and keep them from investigation and encroachment.[/quote]
Since the Moth answers "Yes" to the question of the Glory and seeks the Light, to a seemingly self-destructive degree (Moth to the candle flame), I think the Black-Flax’s "No" indicates that it actively moves away from or avoids the Light. Which seemingly puts it at odds with not only the Moth but also the rest of the Woods, which arises from the foundations of the world and reaches towards the Glory.
.
[quote=Clifton Royston]III. The Ring-Yew.
Hour of time = possibly 3:00 am.
Possible Tarot correspondence = III. The Empress (Venus, femininity)
Lore: nothing at all as yet?[/quote]
It’s an Hour of the Wood (De Horis).
[quote=Clifton Royston]IV. The Thunderskin.
…
Wild speculation: "He demands the dance." Might one of the Thunderskin’s particular dangers be as the source of the Tarantella, the fairy-tale-like (but historically attested) contagious mental disease causing people to dance themselves to death? Perhaps then along with coffee, he would also be the source or patron of MDMA and other stimulant drugs?[/quote]
That seems a good bet. Presumably depressants and hallucinogens are patronized by opposing powers, as they make you still or take you out of the world. I also wonder if the Heart Relentless being the patron of coffee means that it is actively hostile towards dreaming. For it is within dreams that you glimpse what lies beneath the skin of the world, and the Heart wants the skin preserved.
.
[quote=Clifton Royston]XXII. The Forge of Days.
…
Speculation: "The winter that warms and spring that consumes" is fascinating - at first glance one might read it the natural way (it warms the winter) but it’s saying the opposite. It’s clear from the very little we know that this must be another particularly dangerous Hour. Coseley (a Know and probably a Long) argues that it split and damaged the sun, and it "devoured" the greatest among a group of powerful Longs. [/quote]
It might also have ultimately consumed Coseley as well. It’s one of the last things he wrote about before…well, whatever happened to him (Coseley’s tone is urgent – as if he suspected he might have little time left.), and his letters are explicitly about the costs of the invisible arts…
[quote=Clifton Royston]V. The Mother of Ants.
…
(missing lore text) [something in Consent of Wounds] [/quote]
To open the way, one must first open oneself. This practice outlines that opening, in the name of the Mother of Ants.
[quote=Clifton Royston]XVII. The Red Grail.
Lore: "The Red Grail seeks to devour and be devoured." [Kickstarter page]
“We must devour to be devoured. We cannot be undevoured, as we cannot be unborn.” [The Orchid Transfigurations]
"Here am I, alone on the night of my victory, my end. The Grail has opened its mouth. It will not forget my savour. It will not forget." [victory text, web prototype]
"Hersault says the Red Grail split the sun. Coseley proposes it was the Forge of Days. They both agree that now, it’s sunset at noon." [Noonstone text, web prototype]
The principle of Grail – Hunger, lust, the drowning waters. "The principle of the Red Grail demands to be fed."[/quote]
Starvation card text: I need rest and nourishment, if I am to recover. But when my mouth waters, when my vision swims, I see the red cup, and now and then it will speak to me.
[quote=Clifton Royston]XII. The Sun-In-Rags.
…
Speculations: Might the existence of the Sun-in-Rags have something to do with the Sun itself having been "split" as noted in the Lore for the Forge of Days and Red Grail? [/quote]
Maybe the Forge of Days and the Red Grail teamed up to split the Sun. That would explain why the Sun-in-Rags is associated with both Light and Blood.
edited by Anne Auclair on 9/22/2017
[quote=Anne Auclair]Wow, that is a pretty impressive compilation! Thanks for doing that!
Here are some comments and additions.[/quote]
Thanks! This is just the kind of feedback and elaboration I was hoping for. I’m going to edit most of your additions into my original post, especially the Lore connections I missed.
I just realized: Actually there is a possible connection between the Red Grail and the Star tarot card, which I had missed.
In some illustrations (e.g. the Thoth deck) the Star is shown as a naked woman pouring out an elaborate chalice, though in others she’s pouring water out of a pitcher or jug. It’s more tangential than essential, but interesting.