[quote=Clifton Royston]Another little tidbit: from a recent comment on Kickstarter, it sounds like our characters are going to be able to write books in the game.
Maybe they’ll become legacies.
Alexis Kennedy did an AMA on Reddit at 2 pm; he seems to have stopped answering questions around 40 minutes ago, but there’s a lot of interesting stuff in his answers.
The most relevant stuff for me (because they’re the answers to the questions I asked), are, first of all, that Charles Williams wasn’t an intentional inspiration for the Red Grail despite all the correspondences including the literal phrase "red Grail", and second of all that it’s reasonable to suspect that Gods-From-Flesh originate in our reality, possibly from human occultists. The former confirms that Charles Williams was under the influence of the Hours when writing Taliessin through Logres, and the latter isn’t a direct confirmation but pretty strongly implies my previous ideas about the structure of the Mansus.
Also, birds are a sort of wound in reality produced by the cracking of the egg, which moves as it heals, similarly to certain patterns in Conway’s Game of Life.
Edit: It was de-removed just recently, he may be answering questions again.
Edit edit: yep, he definitely is answering questions still.
edited by illuminati swag (Benthic) on 9/29/2017
The Chamber of Conclusions, anciently called the Concursum
This is how you have a house without walls.
The Concursum was created for Cultist Simulator by Catherine Unger.
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edited by Anne Auclair on 10/1/2017
A friendly reminder that today is the last day of the Kickstarter.
If you still want to be a backer, now’s your chance.
edited by A Dimness on 9/30/2017
Backed it. Now trying to play the game.
Is there any way to play this if you don’t possess a mouse with a scroll wheel?
Zoom in/out doesn’t really work in the prototype anyway, IIRC. So unfortunately, playing that alpha prototype becomes in large part a game of managing your desk space carefully and shuffling cards and their attached panels around quickly enough to get cards in and out of where they need to go. I think it should be playable if you use the maximum resolution your monitor supports, but I never tried on a smaller monitor.
I think we all assume it will NOT be like this in the released game.
Quickly noting down for reference some extra lore-related bits that came up in the AMA (apart from what illuminati swag already pulled in):
Q: A lore question- Is the House the true dwelling of the hours, or simply the representation that we choose to project on to it? As an extension of that, are the Hours truly knowable by a mortal?
A: (a) yes (b) is the Mansus truly knowable by a mortal?
Q: Was the Great War a victory, defeat, or inconsequential to the various hours?
A: Depends on the History. But to be less coy, events at that level are of direct interest to the Hours.
Q: What is depicted upon the tarot-like cards of the Hours? Is it the Hours themselves, a symbolical transfiguration of their core concepts, or only some of their more common Names?
A: A symbolical transfiguration. Their Names are mostly not present, but sometimes the boundaries blur.
Q: […] is the Gelatinous Worm God likely to feature in game in CS? It seems almost a shame for it not to in a way!
A: It’s increasingly possible!
Q: What manner of beings are crafted / spawned / shaped / pulled-into-existence by the Lionsmith? To what extent are any of them, ah, lions?
A: The things he sends against the Colonel, IIRC. To at least some extent, at least some of them are lions.
Q: That begs the question who is the Colonel?
A: The Lionsmith’s opponent.
(This is interesting, as a couple more clues to two of our less-known hours!)
Q: What exactly are the Hours? What’s the Mansus? What is air? What’s eight divided by zero?
A: The enumeration of action. The House of the Sun. Unheard music. A feast untouched.
Edit: He was still answering questions intermittently as of this morning, so I threw a pair of questions in.
Q: Will we get more bits of lore from Noon doled out to us during the development period? In particular, will we learn more about Teresa Galmier or Christopher Illopoly either within the game itself or from external lore?
A: I’ll absolutely continue to emit lore snippets; no commitments on what and when though!
(Oh good, I can continue to satisfy my addiction from time to time!)
edited by cliftonr on 10/2/2017
Got the hang of it eventually! Pause is very useful.
Although my attempt to do a rite blew up in my face and didn’t seem to let me do another. Aw.
Looks like Alexis will be Live Streaming at the end. Approximately 30 minutes to go if you haven’t backed yet.
Alexis has made an update on the work-in-progress legacy system via twitter.
Here are the questions & answers relating to game mechanics and design intent.
Q: There are 7 occult principles which you can use to found of cult. Each principle is represented by a sort of iconic Hour. Then there are 23 additional Hours, each with very distinct desires and personalities. Then there are the Names. How are you planning on channeling all this cosmic diversity through seven cult choices?
A: There are seven so far; also Poseidon is not the only God in the sea; also, things are different since the Intercalate.
Q: Will some quests in ‘Cultist Simulator’ be able to surpass the disturbing nature of ‘Seeking’?
A: […] ‘able to surpass’ - I’ll do my best! What it can’t have is the effect of pouring, sometimes, years of Fallen London levelling and grinding and accumulating into one crazy quest, because in CS the sessions are short and, you know, you could always hack your save file. But the whole intention of this was basically ‘Seeking, the game’, so I hope so.
Q: In contrast to Fallen London (where the player encounters a fixed set of content that occurs sequentially in a fairly consistent way over the course of a single extended playthrough), it looks like you’re aiming for a more roguelikelike experience enabling multiple shorter playthroughs which can be different each time. This appeals to me a lot actually, but it seems like it could be hard to make happen with a fixed set of cards. What are your thoughts about how to ensure different playthroughs drawn from the same pool of content remain fresh and engaging (e.g. after having memorized various cards and how to drag what where)? Conversely, how to ensure the cards encountered in a given playthrough can remain relevant to what the player is trying to do? (In the alpha I ended up with numerous volumes of unread Essays, so if drawing randomly from a large pool of cards I’d be worried many of them might end up being superfluous or irrelevant to your current situation at the time.)
A: …this is a potentially essay-length answer. :) Some bullet points.
[ul][li]wrangling the Opportunity Deck in FL, and particularly the smaller op pools in things like Heists and Expeditions, gave me a good feel for some techniques, though I could do with better maths.[/li][/ul][ul][li]in the alpha, Essays are what you get as the default option if no other books show up, and once other books are exhausted, so that’s a particular problem[/li][/ul][ul][li]I’m dividing rewards into a variety of decks/pools (there’s only one reward pool in the alpha).[/li][/ul]***
Q: Game question: Why did you choose to explore the narrative of CS using a solitaire mechanic? Was there something about the laying out of cards that appealed to you or was it more that a more involved "navigation" would distract from reading the core text snippets?
A: I love cards as a metaphor for events and for resources, so cards were always likely to be a part of it. It was much more about moving cards from one tray to another initially, though, until Martin, my UI freelancer, had the idea of the more freeform, table approach (he may be along to talk about it too).
I didn’t initially think of people reading it as solitaire, per se, but of course that makes sense. Hand of Fate was also an influence, in that it has a sort of semi-diegetic context that doesn’t commit to exactly where the player is and how they interact.
But above all, it allows me to focus on the text, and you say, as the simple art, without making it look cheap, and with it feeling tactile.
Q: What would you say has been the hardest part about creating cultist simulator so far, and what do you think is going to be the hardest part in the future?
A: The hardest part so far has been figuring out the UI. I had a clear idea of the underlying system and model, but making that work in an interface meant a lot of back-and-forth, in which my freelance UI chap, Martin Nerurkar, has been invaluable. (And the UI has in turn informed the model, and so on.) But we’re mostly there. We’re doing a bit more tidy-up this week, using the feedback we’ve garnered so far.
The biggest challenge I’m worried about in the future is getting the balance, pacing and economy right. This is very much something I’m, like, journeyman-level at. I learnt a lot from FL and SS, and I’m applying those lessons here, but when it’s a non-linear progression system, it’s tricksy.
Q: 30 and 7 Why seven is there any hidden meaning or is it just for luck?
A: Seven is a number with a loooong history in Fallen London lore, my work generally. In particular, it was significant in Seeking Mr Eaten’s Name, a notorious FL/SS plotline/concept/quest to which CS is sort of the spiritual successor.
Q: What do you think about the principle of redemption in your games? Is there a reliable mechanism for it?
A: I dislike the idea of the player being irredeemable. Partly this is a technical, craft objection: it’s hard to maintain interest in a choice-driven story if there’s no way out. Partly it’s because I can’t imagine anyone being incorruptible under all circumstances, so I think the reverse should apply.
I think remorse is important and so is restitution, even if it’s only symbolic; I don’t see redemption without those two things.
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edited by Anne Auclair on 10/4/2017
Thanks for pulling that together!
[quote=Anne Auclair]
Q: There are 7 occult principles which you can use to found of cult. Each principle is represented by a sort of iconic Hour. Then there are 23 additional Hours, each with very distinct desires and personalities. Then there are the Names. How are you planning on channeling all this cosmic diversity through seven cult choices?
A: There are seven so far; also Poseidon is not the only God in the sea; also, things are different since the Intercalate.
edited by Anne Auclair on 10/4/2017[/quote]
I recently added a note on this bit to the massive "Speculation on the Hours" post, since I think it bears on the Hours as well as game-play.
I feel fairly sure "Poseidon is not the only God in the sea" alludes specifically to Mary Renault’s The King Must Die which Alexis has been raving about recently, and where (without being too spoileriffic) it becomes important that there is a Goddess of the sea worshiped elsewhere than Greece, completely unrelated to Poseidon.
I’d interpret this therefore to mean that there might be two or more different Hours associated with the same single Principle, but each interpreting it or expressing it completely differently. That in turn could affect game play, as you’re suggesting, if founding a particular cult gives you an advantage in access to certain Hours - possibly several different ones. (Or conversely, it might give them an advantage in accessing you!)
[quote=Clifton Royston][quote=Anne Auclair]
Q: There are 7 occult principles which you can use to found of cult. Each principle is represented by a sort of iconic Hour. Then there are 23 additional Hours, each with very distinct desires and personalities. Then there are the Names. How are you planning on channeling all this cosmic diversity through seven cult choices?
A: There are seven so far; also Poseidon is not the only God in the sea; also, things are different since the Intercalate.[/quote]
I recently added a note on this bit to the massive "Speculation on the Hours" post, since I think it bears on the Hours as well as game-play.
I feel fairly sure "Poseidon is not the only God in the sea" alludes specifically to Mary Renault’s The King Must Die which Alexis has been raving about recently, and where (without being too spoileriffic) it becomes important that there is a Goddess of the sea worshiped elsewhere than Greece, completely unrelated to Poseidon. [/quote]
Oh, so that’s where that’s from.
I think it’s a bit more complex than that. Five of the seven occult Principles are fully embodied by an iconic Hour: Lantern has the Glory, Heart has the Heart Relentless/Thunderclap, Moth is the Moth (naturally), Grail the Red Grail, and Forge the Forge of Days. Knock and Edge aren’t as fleshed out, but from what we currently have it doesn’t look like they’ll be any different.
While Edge sounds like a place rather than an entity, I can’t help but notice that its description jives pretty well with the description of the Colonel:
Edge – All conquest occurs at the Edge. The one who dwells there cannot see and cannot hear; cannot be wounded and cannot be denied. [Edge is the principle of contention and battle]
THE COLONEL IS SCARRED. THE COLONEL IS BLIND. THE COLONEL CANNOT BE EVADED.
So I’m pretty sure the Colonel is the Edge. It’s really hard to imagine an Edgier Hour than the Colonel.
Meanwhile, although one might initially read Knock as a state of mind, the way it is described sounds very much like a distinct cosmic power with a will of its own:
Knock – The Knock permits no seal and no isolation. It thrusts us gleefully out of the safety of ignorance. [the knock is the principle that opens doors and exposes secrets]
We’ve yet to encounter any descriptions of the Knock. Maybe Alexis just hasn’t introduced this exact Hour to us (we’re missing quite a few). Or maybe the Knock largely goes by another name, just as the Lantern represents the Glory and the Heart Relentless is interchangeable with Thunderclap. The Mother of Ants seems a good candidate, given her importance in the Consent of Wounds and the Injury card, but at this point that’s just a guess.
What if the seven Principle Hours are inseparable from Lantern, Moth, Grail, Forge Heart, Knock, and Edge because these respective Hours were the very first Hours, the most primordial and Titanic, and all subsequent Hours arose, directly or indirectly, from the interactions, machinations, and creations of the original seven? Sort of like how much of the greater Olympic pantheon were descended in various ways from the seven children of Cronus (Zeus, Hera, Poseidon, Hades, Hestia, Demeter, Chiron). And by extension the entire Mansus and the visible world are descended from these original seven. So while, say, the Wildwood cult is dedicated to Moth, it’s also dedicated to every god that shares the Principle of Moth. This would match the description we’re given in the alpha:
The Wildwood Club
An occult society dedicated to chaos, and the unexpected Hours.
For me though, the biggest takeaway from Alexis’ answer was: “There are seven [cults] so far.” This suggests that Alexis is thinking about or already planning an increase in the number of cult societies. Furthermore, “things are different since the Intercalate” – intercalate is an insertion between two different layers. So he’s made new plans for the cult system since the Kickstarter.
Now, when working, dreaming, painting or studying lore, you begin the process with a starter card and then you have the option of changing things a bit by introducing a second card. It follows that one could use one lore card to create a cult, or add in a second lore card to create a somewhat different sort of cult.
So how many cults could there be? Well, let’s look at rituals, which are created by combining two different lore cards. At the maximum there could be between 42 (76) and 49 (77) different rituals the player could discover. Now, I suspect the actual number of rituals will be well below this maximum. But then Alexis is planning for there to be 120 different books in the finished game and who knows how many artifacts and demons (giving us some idea, Alexis has to find homes for 227 total stolen names), so 40-some rituals isn’t completely outside the realm of possibility. So there could be up to 42 cults, but then there’s the further limit of there only being 30 Hours. So, in theory, the maximum number of possible cults could be as high as 30 – one for each Hour, though again it could easily be much lower as related Hours can be grouped together (‘unexpected Hours, Hours of the Wood…’).
As an example of how this system could work, take the Sun-in-Rags. This Hour embodies two Principles, Lantern and Moth, representing his mixed status as both an inspiring god-from-light and a deathly god-from-blood. One could start with a Mansus Glimpse (Lantern), which left on its own would create the Mirror of Glory (dedicated to the light of the true Sun). Adding in a Wood Whisper (Moth) as the second card would then create the…I don’t know, the Troupe of the Motley Sun, dedicated to the Sun-in-Rags, its beautiful endings and a number of allied gods.
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edited by Anne Auclair on 10/7/2017
[quote=Anne Auclair]
Five of the seven occult Principles are fully embodied by an iconic Hour: Lantern has the Glory[/quote]
The Glory isn’t an Hour, I’m pretty sure. The map of the Mansus suggests that it’s a location, which is "above" the Mansus in the same way that the Wood is "below" it. The Wood reaches for the Glory, and it’s the origin of the Gods-From-Light as the Wood is the origin of Gods-Who-Were-Blood.
I think the Hour of Lantern might be the Door in the Eye, as the Watchman. While I don’t recall the exact details, there were things in the web proto which seemed to point that way such as Mansus-Glimpse having Lantern, and Dream plus anything with Lantern aspect enabling you to “Dream of the House in the Wood”, with the Watchman coming into it somewhere.
On that map of the Mansus - when I first looked at it, I was taking the dashed-line curve through the top as being a dividing line between the Wood and the Glory. Looking at it again more recently, though, it seemed to me that instead it’s the path the Sun takes through the Mansus: in at the Front Door, through a small portion of the House, and out again to the Glory. How did the rest of you interpret that?
More thoughts based on snippets from the first prototype:
The Mansus-Glimpse description is “Behind the world is the Mansus, the lair of the Hours, the house of the Sun. Its corridors are the angles of time.” Studying a Mansus-Glimpse is “What is the Lantern? (I might think about lantern-light.)” and the result is: “On the borders of our dreams we find the Mansus, where the Watchman walks the corridors. Light goes before him and shadow behind. He must not see you. [Lantern is the principle of Dreams and the Mansus.]” So the Principle of Lantern is specifically connected to Dreams and the Mansus and to the Watchman - of course, the Watchman carries a lantern - while the Door-in-the-Eye description implies the Watchman is one of that Hour’s names.
The Fistulous Invocation description is: “The Hour called Knock ends isolation; breaks seals; he brings the gift of secrets.” Studying a Fistulous Invocation is “What is Knock? (I hear it in the moments before I wake.)” and the result is: “The Knock permits no seal and no isolation. It thrusts us gleefully out of the safety of ignorance. [The Knock is the principle that opens doors and exposes horrible secrets.]” So this says there is an Hour actually called Knock, though it might have another name or names.
I think Anne - and Joel - are right about the Colonel being the Hour of ‘Edge’ though. Those descriptions seem to line right up.
Here are my various Lantern and the Glory thoughts.
According to the alpha description, Lantern is the principle of the Mansus, and the light above it. So the Lantern Principle definitely originates from the Glory, which is the fierce source of the world’s light and the place from which the gods-from-light descend. The Glory is directly tied to the Sun in that the Lantern is also the principle of the Mansus, which we know "is the House of the Sun." Crucially the Mansus has a front door facing the Glory.
But what is the Sun? Well, it seems to be an Hour, as it partly resides within and rules the Mansus, which it probably created or at the very least designed (House of the Sun/Lantern is the principle of the Mansus). You have a dream encounter with the Sun when you have a nightmare of the Cleansing Dawn - its light burns your bones and can give you a Mansus Glimpse. The Sun is highly regarded by the Long at Port Noon (They always pay their respects to the Sun here) and might even have some degree of extra presence (The sun is punishing). Its influence is essential to life: ‘Life is pure flame, and we live by an invisible sun within us.’ On the map it is shown straddling or patrolling the boundary between the Glory and the Mansus. It is not to be confused with the Sun-in-Rags, which is a completely different and rather bloody power.
All in all, the Sun appears to enjoy the most preeminent position amongst the Hours, suggesting it is the first and strongest of the secret gods as well as the foremost god-from light. The Sun is also very close to the Glory in symbolism and proximity. Right now I have a hard time distinguishing the two, as the Glory and the Sun are both sources of light. Maybe there is no real distinction - the Woods being below the Mansus does not prevent the Hours of the Wood from residing within the Mansus, so why would Hours of the Glory be prohibited? Just as the Ring-Yew, Black Flax and Moth have their Wood, so the Sun has its Glory. Alternatively, remember how some of the Hours have direct emanations amongst the Names, as well as mortal incarnations who influence human history? So it’s possible that the Sun could in turn be a direct emanation of whatever ruling power is, or resides within, the Glory. Meanwhile, the visible ball of gas sun that warms the mortal world is probably a direct emanation of the Sun in the Mansus.
I don’t believe the Watchman/Door-in-the-Eye is the iconic Hour of the Lantern. Among other things, he explicitly walks "behind light" and is largely preoccupied with paroling the Mansus. He’s a guard and a gatekeeper, not the master of the house.
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edited by Anne Auclair on 10/8/2017
[quote=Clifton Royston]Q: Was the Great War a victory, defeat, or inconsequential to the various hours?
A: Depends on the History. But to be less coy, events at that level are of direct interest to the Hours.[/quote]
I’m really glad this question got asked. When you stop to think about it, the First World War is really important to the setting: its a mystery, a part of the background, a potential source of motivation, and a likely battlefield.
The game takes place sometime in the 1920s. Crucially, the History we know has changed since then, so a lot of basic events are up in the air and we don’t really know what happened or how bad things are. If the war happened, then it’s only been a few years since the formal end of hostilities. Now, one of the hallmarks of the postwar world was a tremendous sense of loss and a strong current of pessimism, disillusionment, and anxiety, with many people fearing for the future of civilization. You know, just the sort of atmosphere that would be very conductive to occultism, cult recruitment, and miracle seekers. But the war isn’t just an implicit part of the underlying setting, it also hangs over your own character’s motivations. They lived through the cataclysm, probably knew people who died, and might even have fought in it. Have they given up on the material world, which they perceive as entering a new dark age? Are they seeking enlightenment because they want to discover the forces that are truly responsible for what happened? Do they want power so that they might surpass the kings and generals who so recently turned their life upside down? Do they want to reverse, rewrite or otherwise undo their country’s defeat? Or do they feel that their country’s victory wasn’t great enough? Or, looking into the future, do they want to foresee, influence, and prevent/shape the next great world conflict? Another hallmark of the 1920s was that it was a period sandwiched between wars. Given how the Hours can change history and time like humans edit wikipedia, both wars, past and future, are potential sources of conflict and struggle.
Then there is the degree of correspondence to consider. Does violence and transformation on earth reflects violence and transformation in the other world? Was the Great War, with all its revolutionary destruction, a war in heaven as well?
edited by Anne Auclair on 10/9/2017
…just gonna leave this here…
edited by Addis Rook on 10/9/2017
[quote=Anne Auclair]Here are my various Lantern and the Glory thoughts.
According to the alpha description, Lantern is the principle of the Mansus, and the light above it. So the Lantern Principle definitely originates from the Glory, which is the fierce source of the world’s light and the place from which the gods-from-light descend. The Glory is directly tied to the Sun in that the Lantern is also the principle of the Mansus, which we know "is the House of the Sun." Crucially the Mansus has a front door facing the Glory.
But what is the Sun? Well, it seems to be an Hour, as it partly resides within and rules the Mansus, which it probably created or at the very least designed (House of the Sun/Lantern is the principle of the Mansus). You have a dream encounter with the Sun when you have a nightmare of the Cleansing Dawn - its light burns your bones and can give you a Mansus Glimpse. The Sun is highly regarded by the Long at Port Noon (They always pay their respects to the Sun here) and might even have some degree of extra presence (The sun is punishing). Its influence is essential to life: ‘Life is pure flame, and we live by an invisible sun within us.’ On the map it is shown straddling or patrolling the boundary between the Glory and the Mansus. It is not to be confused with the Sun-in-Rags, which is a completely different and rather bloody power.
All in all, the Sun appears to enjoy the most preeminent position amongst the Hours, suggesting it is the first and strongest of the secret gods as well as the foremost god-from light. The Sun is also very close to the Glory in symbolism and proximity. Right now I have a hard time distinguishing the two, as the Glory and the Sun are both sources of light. Maybe there is no real distinction - the Woods being below the Mansus does not prevent the Hours of the Wood from residing within the Mansus, so why would Hours of the Glory be prohibited? Just as the Ring-Yew, Black Flax and Moth have their Wood, so the Sun has its Glory. Alternatively, remember how some of the Hours have direct emanations amongst the Names, as well as mortal incarnations who influence human history? So it’s possible that the Sun could in turn be a direct emanation of whatever ruling power is, or resides within, the Glory. Meanwhile, the visible ball of gas sun that warms the mortal world is probably a direct emanation of the Sun in the Mansus.[/quote]
The thing is, I think the Sun is more than an Hour. The Mansus is the House of the Sun specifically rather than the House of any of the other Hours, and the Sun is labeled separately from the Hours on the map. Perhaps even more importantly, the hours of the temporal day are produced by the Sun, which seems like very strong evidence that it’s something greater. If anything, I would expect the Sun to be that ruling power within the Glory, from which all the Hours are emanations. In terms of the nature of the Glory, I’d say it’s basically a location, similar to the Wood, the Mansus, our reality, and nowhere. All of those allow plenty of room for debate as to whether they’re really locations, of course, but they’re in some sense analogous to locations, which is what matters. The Glory may be a "greater" place in some sense, but it’s still a similar sort of thing.