Despite not having personally discharged of my soul for economic gain, I am aware that this is possible and that the price ranges depending on the circumstances under which one makes the transaction. The selling price of the items and amenities gained in exchange ranges, if I am not mistaken, between 15 to 25 echoes at the Bazaar. This being the case, I am at a loss as to how bottled souls, and even those remarkable enough to be categorized ‘brilliant’ by the merchant-bureaucrats engaged in this business, is sold for so little, in such great quantities. The buying price for a regular soul is only 4 pence, for a brilliant soul no such price exists, but assuming that the general 2:1 ratio for buying and selling holds, it would be a meagre one echo. However, it has also occurred to me that a coruscating soul is valued at 312.50 echoes at the Bazaar. Does this mean that the player characters’ souls, regardless of personality and course of action, is somewhere in significance between a brilliant and a coruscating soul?
Also, what do we know about the arrangements between the Bazaar and Hell in regards to the acquisition and exchange of souls? Does Hell have priority of choosing which souls to obtain? Does it not desire as many souls as it can get, regardless of quality, and if it does, then how are ordinary souls available for purchase at the Bazaar? Considering the devils employ spirifers to bypass the Masters in pursuit of their pneumatic interests, it would seem that they do value quantity over quality, since these spirifers are to be observed sneaking into hospitals taking advantage of the feeble and defenceless. I would like some clarification on this, and if authoritative information is lacking, then speculation is welcome as well.
It is true, Devils will pay a lot more money to abstract a soul rather than to just buy a soul.
Why would that be? It probably has more to do with whatever the Devil’s goals are than with the nature of the soul in question, as you can talk to several characters who have sold their souls to pay for rather expensive endeavors. Ex. "I sold my soul to get enough money to save my business" or some such.
As far as low prices at the Bazaar, the Bazaar has been in business for a very very long time. Prices tend to depreciate when the market is flooded with goods.
With regards to this. This may have more to do with the nature of spirifers than Hell’s preferences. Brilliant souls would (assumedly) be harder to gain, as extremely notable people are more likely to have protection. Also, even brilliant souls can only be sold for 50 pence. Spirifers tend to go for the easy pickings, because getting 100 souls in one go, trading them into Hell’s fence for three times that in brass and getting three echos profit for little risk, is better than seeking someone with a Brilliant Soul, and risking life and imprisonment to gain them for about the same amount of profit for much more work.
Its also perfectly possible that their aims are completely unknowable, because after all devils are really bees in big paper people-suits.
So this would imply that Hell is more interested in parting people with their souls rather than the souls themselves. But if so, then why the discrimination between different souls at all? What matter if a soul is notable or brilliant? Does that mean that parting a notable person from their soul is somehow more important than parting the ordinary fellow from his? Plausible, but not too likely, in my opinion.
Also, my bone of contention is with the very fact, which you take for granted, that the Bazaar is flooded with souls? Why would Hell not claim these? The fact that the Bazaar is old does not account for this, in my opinion. Would you care to explain your line of thinking further?
Also, does ‘abstraction’ refer to the extraction of a soul? Your post implies so. I have witnessed abstractions during my time with certain devils but I always assumed them to be something more deep and unknowable, since soul extractions seem to be regarded as quite quotidian in the Neath, and the in-game text covered the whole Abstraction ordeal in a great deal of mystery.
I am aware of the apoidean nature of devils, but even bees have motives. The mysteries of Hell and the devils should not, I think, be dismissed so easily. There’s something there. Hell is the greatest enigma of all in the Neath, where we know more even about the nature of the Bazaar and the Masters, but so much about the devils remains shrouded.
[quote=Isaiah Hazardway]So this would imply that Hell is more interested in parting people with their souls rather than the souls themselves. But if so, then why the discrimination between different souls at all? What matter if a soul is notable or brilliant? Does that mean that parting a notable person from their soul is somehow more important than parting the ordinary fellow from his? Plausible, but not too likely, in my opinion.
Also, does ‘abstraction’ refer to the extraction of a soul? Your post implies so. I have witnessed abstractions during my time with certain devils but I always assumed them to be something more deep and unknowable, since soul extractions seem to be regarded as quite quotidian in the Neath, and the in-game text covered the whole Abstraction ordeal in a great deal of mystery.
I am aware of the apoidean nature of devils, but even bees have motives. The mysteries of Hell and the devils should not, I think, be dismissed so easily. There’s something there. Hell is the greatest enigma of all in the Neath, where we know more even about the nature of the Bazaar and the Masters, but so much about the devils remains shrouded. [/quote]
My take on it? A paper suit made from Leonardo Da Vinci is worth more than a paper suit made from Isaiah Hazardway, and both of these are more precious than a paper suit made from Unremarkable Passerby.
Meanwhile, a paper suit made from a Rubbery Man violates all cosmic hygiene guidelines, can’t pass the cosmic Metal Detector at checkpoints and will get you shot on sight, so they are rightfully disliked.
It seems clear, too, that while devils take physical pleasure out of the Abstraction process, they also take physical pleasure out of the souls themselves. I have always assumed that they ate them, but that could be undue pessimism on my part.
One thing worth remembering is that Souls don’t just vanish once bought or sold. They can be kept, stored, bartered, traded, and used as currency. They may circulate among the hands of devils and humans alike. And that puts a new spin on their value.
Did you know that some coins cost more to make than their face value? Last year, it cost 1.66 cents to make a US penny, and a whole 8.09 cents to make a nickel. But it’s still worth it for the government to keep minting them, because once made, a coin can be spent thousands of times without wearing out. It circulates through the economy and keeps it moving.
If you consider the Abstraction fees a kind of ‘minting cost,’ the whole thing makes a bit more sense. Buying or selling a Soul already in circulation doesn’t add to or subtract from the general stock of Soul-based wealth, but putting a new Soul into the mix can enrich the devils as a whole. There’s also a speculative element to it – a devil might gamble that a given Soul might be higher tier, and if he’s right at least some of the time, it could make the ‘failed’ investments worth it.
There’s also the fact that devils seem obsessed with Souls to the exclusion of all else. If the devils put no value on Echoes or Nevercold Brass except as a way to acquire more souls, then they could see any purchase of Souls as getting great riches from trash. ‘My, you’re one shrewd bargainer. All right, I’ll pay you three strings of glass beads for your ancestral homeland,’ or that sort of thing.
[quote=Penguin Zero]One thing worth remembering is that Souls don’t just vanish once bought or sold. They can be kept, stored, bartered, traded, and used as currency. They may circulate among the hands of devils and humans alike. And that puts a new spin on their value.
Did you know that some coins cost more to make than their face value? Last year, it cost 1.66 cents to make a US penny, and a whole 8.09 cents to make a nickel. But it’s still worth it for the government to keep minting them, because once made, a coin can be spent thousands of times without wearing out. It circulates through the economy and keeps it moving.
If you consider the Abstraction fees a kind of ‘minting cost,’ the whole thing makes a bit more sense. Buying or selling a Soul already in circulation doesn’t add to or subtract from the general stock of Soul-based wealth, but putting a new Soul into the mix can enrich the devils as a whole. There’s also a speculative element to it – a devil might gamble that a given Soul might be higher tier, and if he’s right at least some of the time, it could make the ‘failed’ investments worth it.
There’s also the fact that devils seem obsessed with Souls to the exclusion of all else. If the devils put no value on Echoes or Nevercold Brass except as a way to acquire more souls, then they could see any purchase of Souls as getting great riches from trash. ‘My, you’re one shrewd bargainer. All right, I’ll pay you three strings of glass beads for your ancestral homeland,’ or that sort of thing.[/quote]
Yes but if devils value souls so highly, then why are souls in the market in the first place? Why are they allowed to circulate? I see your point about the minting cost and all that, but once the soul is extracted, what is the benefit of having it enter into circulation? It is no secret that the pursuit of souls is something like the raison d’etre of devils, but this being so, why are souls available for purchase to the average citizen?
To be clear, I may be terribly misinformed, because I’ve just arrived in Fallen London, but a few theoretical explanations off the top of my head;
Devils don’t work as a cohesive whole from what I’ve gathered - so perhaps we’re just infringing on their natural soul economy. Also, common sense says the price of souls couldn’t rise far above what people are willing to sell their own souls for (excepting brilliant souls, but even those would have a standard price set). There is also the possibility that devils are drawing us into soul trade for a reason, perhaps they are corrupting through commerce. edited by Smelgen on 6/29/2015
The devils are generally very reluctant to part with souls. I think one of the only cases is the Infernal Sommelier, who’ll only do so when he’s running low on Amanita Sherry. The other sources of souls are not gotten from devils – they’re from spirifers, or the Capering Relicker (who gets his from somewhere overzees) or even from the Ministry of Public Decency, which is collecting large quantities of Brilliant Souls for some unknown reason. The Souls that the ordinary citizen can purchase are bought from the Bazaar – which as everyone knows, charges prices that are generally too high if one knows alternative ways to get the goods you’re looking for. Hell probably doesn’t care enough about these common-porridge souls to buy them off the Bazaar at those prices, and doesn’t have the power or gall to seize them or shut down their sale. The devils are generally not very excited about anything short of a Brilliant Soul – so I imagine they’re alright with letting the circulation of commonplace souls encourage the Soul Trade, which flows its most precious products back towards hell.
One of the quests from Sunless Sea is somewhat relevant to this discussion.
One of the Deviless’ that you interact with says that all souls belong to [us] you know. She also describes the souls of apes to be underaged, not unlike the wine you give her.
I am in doubt as to whether the devils are truly nonchalant about lesser souls. But if that is the case, and if it can be backed up by some evidence, then that would explain most of it. My chief qualm is about souls being on the Bazaar itself, and the Bazaar only sells the regular type of soul. The sale of brilliant souls at a relatively low price isn’t terribly problematic or illogical in my view, supply-demand would explain that, and we can assume that the devils either have some sort of agreement with the Masters to direct all the ‘brilliant+’ supply into their hands, or they simply buy them out immediately as soon as they come in. However, I would really like some textual instances where devils discard or belittle souls as inferior. The information provided by Ms. Davidson is relevant here. However, given how obsessively enthusiastic the devils are at every turn towards the player character’s soul, there seems to be only two explanations. Either the soul of the player character is assumed to be exceptional no matter what, or the devils are hyping themselves up for an ordinary soul. edited by Isaiah Hazardway on 6/30/2015 edited by Isaiah Hazardway on 6/30/2015
Devils value the chase more than the actual prize. You can get a better idea of how much they like the prize itself through the Fate-locked method of getting your soul back.
This is also true. In the Heart’s Desire Ambition, one of the players outright states that they value the chase as opposed to the prize. edited by Blaine Davidson on 6/30/2015
This is my own theory with little backing, but in my opinion it provides the best possible explanation. What I believe we are dealing with is a simple confusion of terminology.
Allow me to first indulge in a metaphor. Here, I have a marble stone weighing 28 pounds. It was purchased for 400 pence before the fall. Now, before we used Echoes, the coin of the realm was the "pound," equivalent to 100 pence. Further, another way of measuring its weight would be in stones, equivalent to 14 pounds.
This means I have a single four stone stone worth four pounds at two pounds per stone.
Perfectly straightforward.
Now, if I split it open like so, how many stones do I have? Well, you’d probably say I have two. But how do I split one stone down the middle and have two stones? To complicate things further, this stone has a small ruby deposit, which, once I take the time to chisel it out, will represent a third stone.So three stones, one far more valuable than the other, out of a single stone?
That is what I believe is occurring with souls. An individual may have numerous "souls" within them, as a soul is simply a unit of measurement. Special souls (like Brilliant Souls) are like the ruby inside the stone; they may be considered a separate soul; a rare and valuable find for whichever devil manages to capture a soul with a Brilliant or otherwise unique soul within.
Actually, before the Fall, a pound was equivalent to 240 pence. The Masters must’ve decimalized the currency to simply matters of commerce. But it is an interesting theory, though I don’t quite believe it. There’s not much to back it up, is there?