I made a thing today! :D
It’ll eventually be a compendium of Fallen London, Sunless Sea, and perhaps The Silver Tree’s lore: people, places, things, happenings. Feel free to add content - a page or two, or perhaps some artwork (with credit, of course). The most productive editors will become admins!
:feedback:
[quote=KestrelGirl]I made a thing today! :D
It’ll eventually be a compendium of Fallen London, Sunless Sea, and perhaps The Silver Tree’s lore: people, places, things, happenings. Feel free to add content - a page or two, or perhaps some artwork (with credit, of course). The most productive editors will become admins!
:feedback:[/quote]
While I like the idea, it would take a vast amount of work to bring it up to date.
How do you plan to reflect the difference between known information, hints, and speculation?
I’m also curious to know how you intend to handle information that is only available through fate-locked storylines, which FB have asked to be kept under wraps.
Incidentally, are you aware of the St Arthur’s Candle Tumblr? There’s a LOT of lore there already…
edited by RandomWalker on 8/30/2015
I very much support the lore wiki.
To make it work I would suggest you create a list of most important articles (masters, ambitions, bazaar itself, locations, important people, and so on) and let any of the active community people pick some articles and write them.
Using St Arthur as a reference is a good idea too (with proper credit, of course), but it would also be great if every lore information had in-game reference (a quest or a storylet in FL/SS).
Would also be great if you copied the thread to other community platforms (reddit? I dont know much else).
I really hope the project will prosper!
RandomWalker, yes, I have seen it (as well as NiteBrite’s Tumblr). The only problem is the format; I think it’ll be hard to find seriously juicy information about a character/place/event/thing.
Danko, I’ve already created the wiki navigation, which contains basically all the categories we need to have - people, non-humans, the Masters, places, events, etc. I don’t believe we really need ambitions; we just need the content you discover in them, like things about the Topsy King or Venderbight Isle.
I’m not on Reddit, but I’ve been thinking of signing up.
I’ll be crediting everyone I get information from - I’m using lots of material from NiteBrite’s old wiki attempt and am crediting her for that.
edited by KestrelGirl on 8/30/2015
As a new player, I can’t wait to delve into this XD
Well, the wiki’s a major work in progress, but you can read what I have so far!
Update for everyone: I’m going alphabetically through the content that already exists first. So far I’m up through E (Elder Continent/Echo Bazaar). I’ve also assembled a collection of maps of various areas of the Neath.
If you happen to have any Fourth City-related info/maps, please let me know!
I was working on a wiki project long ago, but I stopped because it was such a struggle to tip-toe around spoilers. Theres a very fine line too between avoiding spoilers and outright misinformation. Examples:
How do you talk about Mr Veils without mentioning the Vake at all? Is it okay to say Mr Sacks is many masters, or can I go further and talk about lacre golems?
My process was sort of to write a super spoilery document, just everything I know on a subject. Then I’d get 2 other experts to help trim it, and then when we were reasonably sure all spoilers were gone we’d bring in a relatively new player volunteer who would say "haha nothing is too spoilers for me!" and then they’d look at the trimmed article and their eyes would seal over with bits of skull for their own protection from all the spoilers. But we’d trim it further from their experience and comments. We had to stop writing articles when we ran out of fresh volunteers haha. It was just a really convoluted process and meant lots of experienced players just straight up couldn’t hold back so they also couldn’t contribute. We wrote all of those articles over a period of about 3 days, so we can pump them out very fast, that’s not an issue.
I want to propose that we should add as much information as possible and just use spoiler tags where needed. I really do, "lest people end up misleading themselves and eachother by only getting half the story from a wiki that’s all about the entire story" The project just doesn’t feel sustainable otherwise.I’ll keep holding back for now, and do my best not to be too misleading. But what are your thoughts on this?
Also, its a bit odd to see writing credits to me on a wiki article since the idea of a wiki is that anyone can contribute or edit. Citing an author turns an article into a quote and then how can anyone edit it without turning it into a misquote.
edited by NiteBrite on 9/5/2015
Some puzzle game walkthroughs use nested levels of spoilers. You read a hint, then expand the next spoiler if you still need help. Obviously Fallen London lore is much less linear than a puzzle game, but a subjective division could still help guide readers to the level of spoiling they’d like. For example, each page could be divided into three sections: Intriguing Snippet / Whispered Secret / Extraordinary Implication.
We’d have to decide what to do with speculative content. Maybe their own pages, so it’s clear that it’s not officially confirmed.
If we’re starting this from existing content, we should assume the original writer wants credit until they specifically waive it. Just include a link to the original revision of the page, so it’s clear what they’re responsible for.
NiteBrite, I did use some of your work from the previous wiki attempt, and I did credit you at the bottom of every article I used. I love your writing!
TheThirdPolice, I don’t believe I’m including anything worthy of being considered a spoiler. I do add brief summaries of storylets, however. Example I wrote for Dr. Vaughan’s Hidden Encampment: "In-game, you may travel there as part of the Light Fingers ambition. There, Dr. Vaughan will tell you of one of the few hybrid humans in the Neath, an unborn girl who is half Moon-Miser (basically, half-insect) and is the Fading Music-Hall Singer’s niece (Clarabelle’s daughter). Also, if you are a survivor of the Affair of the Box, you’ll have a quick meeting with Dr. Vaughan in Spite regarding the box."
edited by KestrelGirl on 9/5/2015
That passage gives ME spoilers and I’ve been around forever (just not done the Light Fingers ambition). Reread NiteBrite’s post, I don’t think you understand her wiki advice or her concern about writer credits.
The nature of the Neath games is that the interesting lore is revealed through exploration, sometimes in bits and pieces but often as a reward for completing a segment of content. I suggest that a collection of Neathy Lore must by definition either be so vague as to be almost completely useless or be full of spoilers. I agree with NiteBrite that the wiki policy should be to permit spoilers and hide them behind some sort of spoiler fold, possibly nested spoiler folds as suggested by TheThirdPolice where appropriate if the software will support that.
There’s also quite a bit of lore that’s speculative, read between lines and probably true but not confirmed, believed by the general London population to be true but actually known by players to be false, and the like. I suggest the wiki team set up a template to easily tag some bit of information as speculative, ideally in a way that makes it easy to add an explanatory footnote. [Further discussion could occur in Talk, or the footnote could link to an appropriate conversation on the forum, as appropriate]
Regarding information copied from elsewhere with credit: on the one hand, that’s not actually ok without permission. On the other hand, if NiteBrite and Spacemarine9 were to give permission for their content to be copied to the wiki to populate it while, say, crediting them in the changelog, it would resolve the issue. (It would also implicitly release any such content under CC-BY-SA, which they might not desire)
…I’m not sure how to untangle this. I put a warning on the homepage… would that be enough? O_o
edited by KestrelGirl on 9/5/2015
[quote=KestrelGirl]…I’m not sure how to untangle this. I put a warning on the homepage… would that be enough? O_o
edited by KestrelGirl on 9/5/2015[/quote]
Articles right now are pretty short. If there was a ton of content, I think separate/tiered sections like what thethirdpolice suggests would be best. In its current state however we are probably talking about a paragraph or a few sentences even that need to be hidden. We have a number of tools at our disposal on how to do this.
What I am thinking is write a basic overview, then put an expand/collapse box under it for any spoilers sections. Any short sections of text (like single sentences) can be text/highlight color redacted. If a spoiler goes on for more than a paragraph or two move it to its own spoiler section at the bottom of the page. I just want to make sure its okay to dip into spoiler territory at all before I go ahead with this.
With regards to fanart, it really doesn’t belong on the wiki. And if you do use it, you should really get written permission above and beyond just citing a credit link.
With regards to the articles created by my old wiki project, those were expressly created for the purpose of being used for a lore wiki (and it was a collaborative writing process with many volunteer writers not just me). Those should be fine to go up without crediting it in the article itself (although I guess using the history log notes works too). Other works I would not directly transfer (such as tumblrs and forums posts), but instead it would be good for use as a reference for creating your own unique articles. The information in those posts can be found elsewhere, in game and in echos. The exact wording cannot. I’d suggest using them as a guide for your own work is okay, but copying shouldn’t be done without permission and citation in the history notes (not in the article directly).
[color=#0066ff]We welcome the idea of a lore wiki and hope that efforts so far can be commingled to create a robust and spoiler-safe one! :D[/color]
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[color=#0066ff]Requirements:[/color]
[color=#0066ff]As for the handling of spoilers, there are two examples which I’d point to that follow some of what has already been suggested in this thread.[/color]
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[color=#0066ff]The Dragon Age Wiki’s Lore Section - Well-written and using a sensible format for concealing details.[/color]
[color=#0066ff]Universal Hint System - A way of displaying information in chunks which get progressively spoilery/on-the-nose (I’ve linked to an example game, so if you haven’t played the 7th Guest, don’t spoil yourself!).[/color]
Universal Hint System! That was exactly what I was referencing, but I’d forgot the name.
Although this is not strictly the remit of a lore wiki, a universal hint system could also be used to provide lore-related play guidance as well.
For example, I’ve found in myself in the following situation a number of times: I would like to find out more about, say, Cantigaster. I am not being patient enough to just play the whole game through until something comes up (or maybe it hasn’t been implemented yet or maybe I have played it but accidentally missed the content) but I also don’t want to be outright spoiled as to the nature of Cantigaster.
So what I always wanted at those times is something like this:
"Cantigaster: Hint 0: Dangerous venom. Hint 1: Play the content at the University to find out more. Hint 2: If you are interested in Canitgaster pay particular attention to content involving the Duchess"
edited by genesis on 9/7/2015
Hannah’s suggestion to look at the Dragon Age wiki could actually work pretty well for Fallen London even though FL and DA are radically different kinds of games; the DA wikis tend to put "commonly known lore" outside of spoilers, and then have a separate spoiler tag for each game that adds to the lore about that topic. This serves rather nicely as a "hint" too – since the hint is just "go play Dragon Age: Origins" or whatever. The same is basically true of the Cantigaster as well, where a wiki article could be broken up into something like…
Cantigaster Venom
A rare and potent poison from a creature whose nature is shrouded by wild rumour: monster-hunters boast about killing the Cantigaster, melodramatic society gossip claims that particularly scandalous vulgarians may end up being fed to it, and the Labyrinth of Tigers claims to have an exhibit of its children, but concrete truths remain elusive. Poisonous venom-rubies are said to each contain a single drop of the Cantigaster’s blood.
When in the employ of the Cheesemonger…
…one may learn that Cantigaster Venom can bring a more permanent form of death than that usually suffered by residents of the Neath, and that Cantigaster Venom works best when applied to a blade.
edited by metasynthie on 9/7/2015
When establishing a new department at the University…
…the Senior Reader in ______ appears to have been poisoned by Cantigaster Venom, which is a proscribed substance. A subsequent investigation reveals the truth about the Cantigaster: he is the husband of the Duchess, stung by an asp before the fall of the Second City in Egypt. The Duchess bargained with the Bazaar to save her beloved’s life in exchange for her city; the Cantigaster lived on, but in a tormented state, his flesh eternally bloated with poisons. The Duchess visit visits him at midnight each Sunday in the third wine cellar under the Shuttered Palace to milk venom out of his skin and bring him relief; what she takes away, presumably, is Cantigaster Venom.
edited by metasynthie on 9/7/2015
When working with the Cheery Man…
…it’s possible to learn that he was poisoned with half a drop of Cantigaster Venom, which has left him barely able to walk.
I don’t know, maybe some of the first paragraph could be spoilered (some of it is from sidebars, or commonly obtainable item descriptions, or the very beginning of Ambitions) and the Cheesemonger stuff is not particularly spoilery about that plotline, but this format does point out where to gain more information about a subject without reading a spoiler, especially if names like “Cheesemonger” and “Cheery Man” are links to other wiki pages that suggest where you might encounter such characters in their intro paragraphs.
[Update: Sorry, had to split into three posts to show how this would work since each one can only have one “spoiler” tag.]
Thanks for the idea, Metasynthie! The thing is, I don’t know where absolutely all the little snippets about all the things come from (except for the massive quantity of sidebar snippets I’m using), so I might need some editing help figuring out what to put in spoilers and what not to. But you’ve inspired me to create a Cantigaster page with the structure you outlined!
Update: Ugh, wow, it’s hard to make spoilers in Wikia. Help please?
edited by KestrelGirl on 9/7/2015