Unanswered Questions of the Neath

Fallen London
41

The Mountain Stone has a wound, from which flows a river of blood with exceptional vital properties. I believe the wound is also related to the Thief of Faces, in a way that seems plausibly thematically related to the idea of being overthrown in some fashion.

For a more detailed breakdown of the nature of this river, its properties, and its symbolism I direct you to Anne Auclaire’s post from 11/28 in this thread on Darkdrop Coffee: http://community.failbettergames.com/topic23268-considering-darkdrop-coffee.aspx?Page=1 .

42

Misc stuff:

  • Hesperidean Cider is made from Hesperidean Apples, which originated in the Garden.[/li][li]You can indeed find a tree in Parabola in Sunless Sea, but that’s not its native environment. [/li][li]The Garden seems to be outright inside the Mountain, according to No More Dominion. [/li][li]I don’t think it’s so much that only winged creatures can access the Garden, as that the Presbyterate prevents access to the Garden but outlaws harming winged creatures.[/li][li]THIS COUNTRY - MOUTH-OF-THE-RIVER - THIS WAS THE PLACE OF HER OVERTHROW: This is either referring to Adam’s Way or Nidah. Either way, the subject of the overthrow in question is Stone: the relevant destinies are about either destroying the Mountain or otherwise revolutionizing who has access to immortality.
43

For the thieves proverb, I think the crusher is a breaking and entering tool, such as crushing glass to enter a building. The push is continuing on, and is the most taxing and dangerous stretch in case of detection. To winder is to wind (as in wind a rope), so it could be like using a cable or zip line to descend and escape.

Just wondering, but where did you find that proverb?

44

It’s from one of the heist cards.

45

Who is the Red-Handed Queen? She appears in the Chess dreams, Parabola (in a destiny), and maybe somewhere else. She’s clearly significant but I cannot for the life of me figure out who or what she is. Is she some kind of Devil that didn’t leave Parabola? A person powerful enough in the world of dreams to control it, the way alley cats do?

46

The Red-Handed Queen is either the Captivating Princess or Carrywell from Ambition: Nemesis. Either way, we don’t know much about the dream-persona.

Edit: As pointed out, Scathewick is the wrong character.
edited by Optimatum on 4/9/2018

47

Who is Scathewick?
Is the Captivating Princess still human? I’ve gotten the impression that she is something more from our interactions. There’s a danger there.

48

I think the Red-handed Queen is just a powerful parabolan entity and Scathewick (and/or the Captivating Princess) is just one of her agents in the waking world.
The Red-handed Queen is usually accompanied by chess imagery, so she might be related to the Great Game or the Greater Game. I don’t know. She’s one of those Neathy entities that we just don’t really have a lot to go on.

edit: the Captivating Princess is a monster, like all of the Empress’ children, she just got a sort of… makeover.
edited by a Nice Friend on 4/8/2018

49

What happened to the Empress’ children to turn them into monsters?

50

They indulged in red honey and eventually ate a bad batch.

51

[quote=a Nice Friend]I think the Red-handed Queen is just a powerful parabolan entity and Scathewick (and/or the Captivating Princess) is just one of her agents in the waking world.
The Red-handed Queen is usually accompanied by chess imagery, so she might be related to the Great Game or the Greater Game. I don’t know. She’s one of those Neathy entities that we just don’t really have a lot to go on.

edit: the Captivating Princess is a monster, like all of the Empress’ children, she just got a sort of… makeover.
edited by a Nice Friend on 4/8/2018[/quote]

I think Dr. Carrywell might have a stronger connection to the Red-Handed Queen than Scathewick. Her portrait is the same one used for the Queen in the Parabolan destinies, and her harvesting secrets from the nearly dead points to a possible Great Game connection.

52

…I was not aware that red honey could transform you into a monster. Huh.

53

Only bad batches of it, but we have no clue what exactly makes a batch bad.

54

Unlike her siblings, she was born after London fell. We don’t know everything of why this would make her different but among other things, she has never experienced the surface, and uh… the Consort must have been in his current state when she was sired. Feel free to speculate.

55

Oops. I got Carrywell and Scathewick’s names confused because I haven’t actually played Nemesis, just read echoes and summaries.

56

What’s the story with Carrywell and Scathewick? My chars have Bag a Legend and Heart’s Desire and I’m not gonna start a new account for quite some time, if ever.

57

Scathewick is a murderer of you significant one, but he’s only a hired muscle. Dr. Carrywell is a warden of Grand Sanatorium of the tomb-colonies, who possess vital information, offers you a collaboration and has a nasty surprise for you.

Unsure if I should spoil everything. You better PM me here or ingame, or run through my journal for details.
edited by curtistruffle on 4/9/2018

58

[quote=TheThirdPolice]Uncovering the Neath’s mysteries was one of my favourite activities many years ago when Echo Bazaar began. I would love to recapture that feeling, and I’m sure many of you are a lot more knowledgeable than I am. There are many things to discuss, big and small (and I should really think about that Mystery tab soon).

Let’s skip the spoiler tags and assume this whole thread will be full of secrets. In addition to discussing these, feel free to add your own questions — if the thread gets unwieldy I’ll curate the list by editing this post (which is why the numbering gets out of order).

UNANSWERED MYSTERIES:

  1. Who wrote “A proposal to ban black-painted ships from the river, written in a cramped hand on scented letter-paper” and why? UPDATE: It is perhaps relevant that the phrase &quota world painted black&quot appears in reference to Surface anarchists and Night-Liberators

  2. Why is the Banded Prince’s seat of power called the Resplendent Court of the Wakeful Eye? And who originally built this crumbled palace?

  3. What exactly is the Red Book of the Presbyterate? And what to make of its phrase &quotWhen we leave the light, we encounter the darkness. When we leave the darkness, we do not always encounter light.&quot? UPDATE from Grumpy_Kong: Perhaps this phrase is a literal dig at the poor quality of other Neathlight compared to the Mountain’s luminance.

  4. What is a proper translation for the weird little thieves’ proverb &quotDownstairs for the crushers, upstairs for the push, and the roof for the windering&quot?

  5. Do all Clay Men have names? We’ve met Norbert and Jasper and Frank but it seems likely this only applies to the more human-adjacent. It’s hard to tell with FL’s naming style so I’m wondering if this is discussed more explicitly somewhere.

  6. Can sentient nonhumans or Drownis be members of the Church in Fallen London, according to official policy? Asked by evergreenmonster

OLD MYSTERIES
[spoiler]
LIKELY ANSWERED MYSTERIES:

  1. Why do the Clay Men want to spread horrifying tales of Polythreme? (&quotMORE OF YOU KNOW OF THE TRUE NATURE OF POLYTHREME,’ says a Clay Man, next time you visit. ‘THIS IS GOOD.’ &quot) UPDATES from Optimatum & JainaEgo: The motive is possibly a commitment to accuracy rather than a desire to make Polythreme seem scary. Alternatively, perhaps they wish to motivate do-gooders to help more Clay Men leave Polythreme for London.

    2. Why is the Fathomking called His Complexity by Drownies and Dockers? His whim is legendary, but does anyone know a more detailed story? ANSWERED by Optimatum: The title fits his mutating physiology as well as his behavior; this seems sufficient to explain it.

  2. The Firebrand mentions the alchemist Mynsicht and (presumably the poet) &quotWinstanley’s patroness&quot discussing the Nadir. Are these just a sprinkling of real names to add depth, or is Failbetter referencing specific statements? And who was Winstanley’s patroness anyway? EDIT: Actually, the revolutionary Digger Gerrard Winstanley is a better fit than the poet, given the Firebrand’s affiliation. This is confirmed by GW’s &quotmystic aristocrat&quot contact Lady Eleanor Davies, who wrote books of prophecy. I doubt there’s anything specific to find here, but if anyone wants to dig through some strange old texts it could be fun…

  3. Why does exactly one spire of the Bazaar lack carved Correspondence sigils? The Master who meets you at this spire, at the end of the University murder mystery story, speaks in a high pitched whisper — not sure which this is but we can rule out Iron and Pages. (BONUS fun question: the stairs of this spire are built for claws, not feet. What do such stairs look like? Are they cylinders rather than flat, or even just airy cylindrical rungs arranged in a stair shape?) ANSWERED by JainaEgo and DuneTheWanderer: There is likely no special significance to the empty spire assuming the spires are the blank pages for the Bazaar to write its messages for transport. Perhaps the Bazaar grew/constructed this spire after or shortly before its arrival in the Neath.

  4. The tomb-colonist moth transformation is apparently a self-directed &quotsidestep on the Great Chain&quot and nothing to do with the Flukes or other powers. Asked by Grumpy_Kong, answered by HeirOfLight. Update by me: Researching this, I discovered that the Most-Moth is described as a &quotgift&quot (possibly a sarcastic use of the word) from the Mountain to Lorenzo the Almost Dead Man, i.e. one of the Seven Against Nidah who stormed that city to take back immortality. Are all moths gifts of the mountain, much like the more straightforward type of immortality? Or did the Mountain use an existing phenomenon to punish or reward this fellow?

  5. I was thinking about one mystery answer the other day, about how Sir Stamford Raffles brought the tigers to the labyrinth. What bothered me is the fact Raffles died before the fall. So does it just mean by founding the ZSL he brought the tigers? Why the specific answer? Where did the tigers even come from? Is the tiger population in the labyrinth a mix of Surface tigers and Elder Continent tigers? Or maybe just EC tigers? Did they even have tigers before the fall? Asked by admdiamond. Answered by JainaEgo & Optimatum & rahv7 & me: Varchas (or its settlers) came from the surface long ago (independent of the Bazaar) from somewhere in Asia. The tigers down here have a large population and a long history with the Fingerkings, so it seems likely that this distant event is when the first tiger population was introduced to the Elder Continent. It’s also possible that the first cats came from the Mountain of Light’s Garden, as humans and Snuffers seem to have, but there’s no direct evidence either way. As for Sir Raffles, he may have found the Neath before London fell, but even if not, he would not be the first Fallen London character whose biography differed slightly from the source material. I also ran across a reference that suggests tigers are potentially (but not necessarily) even older than Varchas: they once ruled one of the Presbyterate’s seventy-seven kingdoms.

FULLY ANSWERED MYSTERIES:
4. How did the phrase &quotThe Lao—&quot end before it was interrupted by a torn page?

(&quotMore rarefied and elaborate roles? The last page in the bundle has been torn half-across. It reads, ‘The Lao—’ &quot) ANSWERED by suinicide: the unreleased profession Laocoönian, of which we know little

  1. The Revolutionaries use the Bach cantata &quotWachet Auf&quot to deliver signals to sleeper agents. Unless there’s some deeper layer here, this is due to its English name &quotSleepers Wake&quot. This one was easy to solve myself, but I wanted to share an example of Failbetter’s wonderful attention to detail.

  2. Does Abstraction affect Unaccountably Peckish, or the compulsion to Seek? A heavily stained soul is required for Seeking, but as far as I know you can then sell it and keep going. Is this ever discussed more explicitly? ANSWERED by cathyr19355, hekazu, and REDACTED: devils refuse to purchase stained souls and even have an adverse physical reaction to them

  3. Another easily answered but fun reference: the reference to a court case &quotR v Malphas&quot refers to a Great Prince of Hell from the demonological text the Lesser Key of Solomon

  4. The White is a Judgement spy master, who seeks the Counsel of Peace (extinction of suns?) as preferable to the changes or extinctions sought by the Liberation of Night. Info from Alexis here unavailable in-game Asked by MastrTMF, answered by rahv7 & Peridigital

  5. The oft-referenced marble shipments to the Tomb Colonies are used to build the Grand Sanatorium, an evil place where the most decrepit of Tomb Colonists are housed for their final, endless decay. Asked by Grumpy_Kong

  6. What do the flukes get out of the various bad things that happen to the Bazaar in the various spoilery fates and Sunless Seas content? I mean, it seems they got exactly what they wanted out of the bargain… Asked by Grumpy_Kong. Answered by A Nice Friend & illuminati swag: The Bazaar abandoned the Flukes and may have forbid them from interfering in matters of love and stories. The mutual animosity also stems from the Flukes’ alliance with Mr Candles, who became Mr Eaten due to the other Masters’ betrayal.

  7. Is the thief-of-faces a Fluke project gone and set itself up as a major player? Did he most recently steal Salt’s face and that’s why no one has seen It around for a while? Asked by Grumpy_Kong. Answered by suinicide, JainaEgo, St Arthur: The Lorn-Flukes did create the Thief-of-Faces, and it does have major ambitions: specifically, it stole a piece of the Mountain of Light to make Mount Nomad, for which the Mountain imprisoned it in Flint, but it later escaped. Salt probably vanished into the East; as far as we know the Thief-of-Faces was not involved there.

  8. Why is Storm in the Neath, what is its purpose, why is it so angry, and how did it die? Asked by Carbattle; answered by JainaEgo and rahv7: Based on the interpretation that Storm is &quotthe Hunter&quot in the play The Seventh Letter (and the line &quotAh, were it only my unfettered choice. But I owe him his hunts and the joys of his voice.&quot), Storm arrived in the Neath to enforce the Judgements’ laws, but has allowed the Bazaar to continue its plot with a seven city limit. It is unknown how it died and what exactly death means for it — though its thoughts can have strange effects on our dreams — but you might be angry too if you were dead, or if you were a space dragon cop. A Nice Friend speculates that suicide may have been its only merciful alternative to punishing the Bazaar.

  9. Why the heck does the Scuttling Squad (or perhaps some other rats) send people Venge-Rat corpses filled with diamonds with notes saying, &quotDONE BECAUSE WE ARE TOO MENNY&quot? asked by DuneSabaku; answered by Barse: a reference to a pretty tragic bit in Jude the Obscure - why the rats are doing it, though, I’ve no idea. Maybe there are just too many of them? :P

  10. What does the royal family eat? asked by evergreenmonster; Answered by suinicide & JainaEgo: Raw goat. Honey. Wine. Possibly worse. JainaEgo also vaguely remembers the possibility of cannibalism but isn’t certain of the memory.

  11. In the Salt ambition in Sunless Sea, you (sorta?) become Salt by taking his name in Frostfound. Cormatron asks why you still have Salt’s yearning if the Cladery Heir removes your earlobe and therefore your restlessness. I have no answer to this but I’m putting it under ‘fully solved’ anyway because I doubt this is anything more than a minor plot hole. (Note: have you considered the possibility that the removed earlobe merely removes your solar-related restlessness? I Seek the Name when no voice whispers. When no hunger moves me. My scars weep and my head aches and I generally have a hangover that remind me. Salt’s Name, will burn similarly inside me until I have satisfied its desire.)

  12. Why are moon pearls useful for clocks? Asked by evergreenmonster, answered by me: The appearance of moon-pearls changes predictably over time to match the phases of the moon, which seems useful for a timekeeping device.

  13. So if death doesnt happen in the 'neath how does aging work? Do people age slower, not at all, what? Asked by evergreenmonster, answered by me: People continue to age, although I get the impression the decay is more about accumulated damage and a reduced ability to recover from wounds. Eventually you become a tomb-colonist, and eventually the tomb-colonists who do not find a better ending start to lose their ability to speak, to see, etc.

[/spoiler][i]

[/i]


edited by TheThirdPolice on 4/5/2018
edited by TheThirdPolice on 4/5/2018[/quote]
Edited by Kowth on 4/9/2018 [li]

59

…why did you quote the OP verbatim?

60

Seems like it would be fun to return to this once in a while, but I’ve made a couple changes to make it manageable:

First, I’ve moved everything to a google doc so no more constant forum post edits.

Second, I’m going to keep the google doc constrained to the more novel questions, and especially ones about specific game text or possible real-world references that have not gotten much community attention. You can still discuss whatever you want in this thread, I’m just not going to rehash years of community lore discussions, especially not about the central lore topics that the game is built around. (I have a sheet in the doc for these topics and may eventually point people in the right direction, but that’s on the backburner.)

Anyway, let’s have some more questions:

26. Why is the permit to the Side Streets of the Bazaar called a Shaper’s Pass?

27. This passage from the Advent Calendar (Dec 21) is about interpreting omens from bats, and a clear reference to the famous nursery rhyme about magpies. But are these city names just chosen mostly for scansion, or is there any significance to them?

&quotOne for sorrow, two for joy. Three for Paris, four for Troy. Five for Athens, six for Thebes and seven… hush. Not yet.&quot

28. In a zailor bar: &quotThe evening finishes with a fist-fight over the nature of ‘the Pillars’: a formation in a desert, an abandoned city of glass or a village of savage women.&quot

This must be referencing Irem, but that place is so mysterious I’m wondering if we can pick something more out of these references. It’s worth noting that these zailors tell you four completely true tales about other far-off ports, so despite the storylet framing them as tellers of &quotyarns&quot and &quottall tales&quot, these guys seem unusually well-informed. (The desert fits with Irem’s real world origins in the Qu’ran, the glass with its connection to mirrors and parabola, but the savage women…?)
edited by TheThirdPolice on 7/21/2018