It will never be possible to make a starting profit on routine trade alone, as the Wolfstack Docks notice warns. But it will generally be easier to make money as more content pops - see this FAQ point:
Well, a few days later, having spent some more time with Sunless Sea (and tasted bitter defeat on some occasions…) I’ve found ways to make money, but not from trade.
However, I think it would be fun if there was some profit to be made (maybe expenses plus 40-50 echos) on some routes, so as to add the idea that you’re helping out an outpost, etc. should one wish to roleplay like that.
[quote=Kryptaria]I just heard of the game yesterday, after discovering Fallen London a couple of days back. I bought Sunless Sea immediately. It’s taken my interest from WildStar, but… my excitement is dying out.
I love the story, but I can’t relax and enjoy it, since I’m constantly running low or out of echoes. The game mechanics are getting in the way.
When I first set out from Fallen London, I figured trade would be the easiest way to at least break even, covering costs of fuel and supplies, if not make a profit. A quick check of the wiki, though, showed me that almost nothing was profitable – the percentage of profit was eaten by fuel cost. Tack on the cost of reducing terror, occasional hull repairs, and hiring replacements when a defeated pirate ship was lost at sea with two of my crew, and I’ve practically been running in the red.
London’s staples should be worth more, the farther one moves from port. Distant ports should pay a premium for those staples, and should offer in return exotic luxuries that are worth more than the cost of fuel and supplies in London. Maybe a dynamic system of supply and demand could keep things a little bit randomized, but not too much, considering the enormous penalty for running out of fuel and supplies in the middle of nowhere.
The way it’s set up now, with everything either trading at a loss or a minuscule profit, I feel like I have no choice but to grind. Granted, I haven’t been gaming the Something awaits you in port mechanics, mostly because I’d rather explore than spend them all on a handful of potentially profitable random number generators.
After I’d played for a couple of hours, I recommended the game to my entire guild. Now, though, I’m having second thoughts. None of us really enjoy grinding, and that’s what this is starting to feel like.
I understand that money is this game’s timesink. That’s fine. But a good timesink becomes invisible to the player, because enough other things have the player’s attention – the world, the encounters, the lore, whatever. If the timesink is at the forefront of the player’s mind, it no longer becomes fun. It becomes a second job.[/quote]
This game feels like a grind because it isn’t complete. For one thing, this game will not really be about trading. Its the storylet rewards that will generally be your way to make money. I don’t like it any more than you do but the developers want this to be a game more about the stories than the trading. It annoys me too but this early on in the games completion grinding is the only way to make alot of money since there aren’t very many places to explore and therefore a limited amount of stories.[li]
edited by Atom Stratomsk on 7/28/2014[/li][li]
edited by Atom Stratomsk on 7/28/2014
There’s basically three trade routes that are viable right now. Map shuffling might seriously alter these, though.
1 Sell wine at Venderbight: easiest, safest
2 Sell wine at Godfall: Rake in the cash,but only for a certain time. Unless you apply a certain trick.
3 Travel around the world, gathering port reports, doing profitable stories
1 is the easiest. You never need to leave the coast. You don’t need to gain terror. You can farm pirate steamers and bats along the way, if you’re so inclined. You advance the Genial Magician’s story-line . You can find the cook. You can find an item that you can trade in for a captivating treasure. You can transport Tomb-colonists. You can do it while traveling around the world. And beside all that it costs very little fuel. There’s just all kinds of amazing benefits to this route. It’s the easiest and safest route.
The downside is that it’s rather boring if you plan to make trips to and from Venderbight for a long time. Tomb-Colonists can eat your supplies, and you’re not seeing a lot of the map. And you’re not making that much on each crate of wine: only 2 echoes. The port report of Venderbight isn’t worth much either.
2 gives the greatest amount of cash. You sell wine with a profit of 2 echoes in Venderbight, whereas in Godfall you can sell wine with a profit of 9 echoes! It takes very little fuel and supplies to get to Godfall as well, perhaps even less than going to Venderbight. The port report of Godfall is worth more than Venderbight as well. Add to that the fact that you can visit Mutton Island twice while doing the return trip to and from Godfall, so you have 2 chances for a judgement egg every time you make this trip. The problem is however is that it costs a lot of terror to travel to Godfall. Godfall also doesn’t have as many readily available storylets as Venderbight. You can explore the Citadel, but that takes an investment in Foxfire Candles and should not be tried unless you’re stats are around 50 at least. Unless you’re prepared to lose a lot of crew and gain a whole heap of terror of course. The reward is worth it though.
3 is the one that let’s you visit all the islands. It gets you all the port reports (that are worth it). There’s roughly 2 ways you can travel around the world: Both consist of you traveling to your favorite ports, getting the reports, during which you can a) load up your hold with fuel/supplies and wine, which you dump at Venderbight or Godfall. Or you can b) load up your hold with fuel/supplies and go fightin’ around the world. Trading is better early game. Fighting pays of way more late game. And you can combine both any way you like as long as you manage your fuel/supplies/trading goods/goodie space ratio well. The downside to traveling (and fightin’) around the world is that it is sure to increase your terror. Dark patches of sea and bad story results can quickly rack up your terror to high levels. You’ll also have to evade all the monsters until you’re strong enough to beat them. Of course you’ll have to explore and find islands to sail past first.
You’ll be a rich bloke in no time.
[quote=Atom Stratomsk][quote=Kryptaria]I just heard of the game yesterday, after discovering Fallen London a couple of days back. I bought Sunless Sea immediately. It’s taken my interest from WildStar, but… my excitement is dying out.
I love the story, but I can’t relax and enjoy it, since I’m constantly running low or out of echoes. The game mechanics are getting in the way.
When I first set out from Fallen London, I figured trade would be the easiest way to at least break even, covering costs of fuel and supplies, if not make a profit. A quick check of the wiki, though, showed me that almost nothing was profitable – the percentage of profit was eaten by fuel cost. Tack on the cost of reducing terror, occasional hull repairs, and hiring replacements when a defeated pirate ship was lost at sea with two of my crew, and I’ve practically been running in the red.
London’s staples should be worth more, the farther one moves from port. Distant ports should pay a premium for those staples, and should offer in return exotic luxuries that are worth more than the cost of fuel and supplies in London. Maybe a dynamic system of supply and demand could keep things a little bit randomized, but not too much, considering the enormous penalty for running out of fuel and supplies in the middle of nowhere.
The way it’s set up now, with everything either trading at a loss or a minuscule profit, I feel like I have no choice but to grind. Granted, I haven’t been gaming the Something awaits you in port mechanics, mostly because I’d rather explore than spend them all on a handful of potentially profitable random number generators.
After I’d played for a couple of hours, I recommended the game to my entire guild. Now, though, I’m having second thoughts. None of us really enjoy grinding, and that’s what this is starting to feel like.
I understand that money is this game’s timesink. That’s fine. But a good timesink becomes invisible to the player, because enough other things have the player’s attention – the world, the encounters, the lore, whatever. If the timesink is at the forefront of the player’s mind, it no longer becomes fun. It becomes a second job.[/quote]
This game feels like a grind because it isn’t complete. For one thing, this game will really be about trading. Its the storylet rewards that will generally be your way to make money. I don’t like it any more than you do but the developers want this to be a game more about the stories than the trading. It annoys me too but this early on in the games completion grinding is the only way to make alot of money since there aren’t very many places to explore and therefore a limited amount of stories.[li]
edited by Atom Stratomsk on 7/28/2014[/quote]
[/li][li]
[/li][li]Don’t downvote him for giving his opinion. [/li]
[quote=nameless][quote=Atom Stratomsk][quote=Kryptaria]I just heard of the game yesterday, after discovering Fallen London a couple of days back. I bought Sunless Sea immediately. It’s taken my interest from WildStar, but… my excitement is dying out.
I love the story, but I can’t relax and enjoy it, since I’m constantly running low or out of echoes. The game mechanics are getting in the way.
When I first set out from Fallen London, I figured trade would be the easiest way to at least break even, covering costs of fuel and supplies, if not make a profit. A quick check of the wiki, though, showed me that almost nothing was profitable – the percentage of profit was eaten by fuel cost. Tack on the cost of reducing terror, occasional hull repairs, and hiring replacements when a defeated pirate ship was lost at sea with two of my crew, and I’ve practically been running in the red.
London’s staples should be worth more, the farther one moves from port. Distant ports should pay a premium for those staples, and should offer in return exotic luxuries that are worth more than the cost of fuel and supplies in London. Maybe a dynamic system of supply and demand could keep things a little bit randomized, but not too much, considering the enormous penalty for running out of fuel and supplies in the middle of nowhere.
The way it’s set up now, with everything either trading at a loss or a minuscule profit, I feel like I have no choice but to grind. Granted, I haven’t been gaming the Something awaits you in port mechanics, mostly because I’d rather explore than spend them all on a handful of potentially profitable random number generators.
After I’d played for a couple of hours, I recommended the game to my entire guild. Now, though, I’m having second thoughts. None of us really enjoy grinding, and that’s what this is starting to feel like.
I understand that money is this game’s timesink. That’s fine. But a good timesink becomes invisible to the player, because enough other things have the player’s attention – the world, the encounters, the lore, whatever. If the timesink is at the forefront of the player’s mind, it no longer becomes fun. It becomes a second job.[/quote]
This game feels like a grind because it isn’t complete. For one thing, this game will really be about trading. Its the storylet rewards that will generally be your way to make money. I don’t like it any more than you do but the developers want this to be a game more about the stories than the trading. It annoys me too but this early on in the games completion grinding is the only way to make alot of money since there aren’t very many places to explore and therefore a limited amount of stories.[/quote]
Don’t downvote him for giving his opinion.
[/quote]
I didn’t downvote him for his opinion, I was just reiterating the fact that Sunless Sea isn’t complete right now. It seemed to me he was making final judgement’s when it should be obvious the game is subject to change in the coming weeks and months.
[li]
I am going to go ahead and say it is really bass ackwards for a maritime-themed game to not have trade as a central theme. Sid Meier’s Pirates and every other pirate-themed game has trade, Elite has trade, Privateer has trade, Freelancer has trade, EVE has trade; the list goes on. If the developers are really going to overlook this so early on, it’s pretty lousy on their part. It’s not hard to do. All they have to do is make some goods at certain ports be significantly cheaper than other ports, and vice versa, in order to stimulate trade routes.
edited by Galdis on 7/28/2014
edited by Galdis on 7/28/2014
Actually I liked this more than trade. It breaks the mold in an interesting way.
There’s also Clay Men from Polythreme, Tomb Colonists from Venderbight, and Strategic Information/Soul Smuggling which are event based but infinitely repeatable. (And I mean strategic intel/port reports aren’t strictly ‘trade’ in a conventional sense but since secrets are a commodity in this setting it effectively is.)
None of those have any initial investment cost either.
[quote=Galdis]I am going to go ahead and say it is really bass ackwards for a maritime-themed game to not have trade as a central theme. Sid Meier’s Pirates and every other pirate-themed game has trade, Elite has trade, Privateer has trade, Freelancer has trade, EVE has trade; the list goes on. If the developers are really going to overlook this so early on, it’s pretty lousy on their part. It’s not hard to do. All they have to do is make some goods at certain ports be significantly cheaper than other ports, and vice versa, in order to stimulate trade routes.
edited by Galdis on 7/28/2014
edited by Galdis on 7/28/2014[/quote]
I’m sure the developers are going to make trading more profitable, it would certainly be a benefit to having a larger ship. I’ll bet they’re intention is to make the storylets more viable to earn echoes than trading, but still make trading a decent way to earn echoes in future updates. The game is a work in progress and everything is a balancing act of epic proportions.
[li]
Right now you don’t need that much money anyway.
While I do understand that the Dev’s didn’t want the game to be completely focused on trading and rather have players make their echo’s via exploration, this is laudable and new and I’m sure will be exciting when finally released. But I do feel like they’ve run too far in the opposite direction to the point of making trading nearly worthless in the grand scheme of things. Having a net profit of only one to three echos per item sold means your not making hardly anything.
And the expenses of reducing terror, supplying and fueling your ship means that your not making enough to pay for a quarter of these expenses.
Trading doesn’t need to be the focus of the game. But hamstringing trading doesn’t improve things either. Make trading a firm supporting pillar to the game and along with all of the other aspects this’ll be an amazing game.
I’m just not sure why some people are so determined that the game has to have a significant trading component. The point of the game is to explore, complete various stories, and fight other ships and sea monsters. Yes, you have a ship and the ability to buy and sell things, and it is occasionally possible to make a small profit by buying and selling things in the right places, but getting hung up on the fact that’s not generally profitable feels to me like arguing that a zombie apocalypse game isn’t complete because you can’t settle down and build a profitable retail store among the ruins of civilization, rather than getting busy with your shotgun. If you want to make money, do Blind Bruiser/Admiralty missions and storylets in the various ports until you’ve raised your stats enough to be able to hunt monsters and pirate ships effectively, and then get out there and start hunting.
edited by penknife on 7/28/2014
I completely agree with penknife, trading should be the little extra you do, not the main activity.
Link it to storylets, like for example if the Admiral sends you up north to get strategic information don’t just race up there to get it but fill your hold with wine and colonists drop them of at Venderbight for profit, plunder the pirates on the way, collect the reports, play riddles at Wither, hunt beasties, buy cheap fuel and goods at Palmerston and sell it back at London to cover your expenses.
Goal is to keep your ship afloat, your engine humming and your Zailors bellys full to keep exploring this wonderfull darkness, not to become a trademogul of the Underzee.
I’m far too lazy to find the post, so I could be utterly misremembering, but I think Alexis may have said something about specifically wanting it to be about exploration, which is why it’s not built with kind/easy trading mechanics.
Maybe I’m entirely making that up. I’ll go see if I have.
Edit: Hmm. Given he posted earlier in this thread, probably shouldn’t have attempted to assume the contents of his mind. But other remarks from this Tiger are here:
http://community.failbettergames.com/topic8767-trading-is-very-limited.aspx#post67405 : "Trade will always be a secondary feature - we’re not building Patrician - but as with my answer in the other thread just now, this is largely an early access thing. As more ports pop, there’ll be more trade routes; as more narrative pops, there’ll be more opportunities to run cargoes and buy goods cheap. As someone on the Steam forums put it, ‘you’re meant to be more Han Solo than the Hanseatic League.’"
edited by babelfishwars on 7/28/2014
If you look at the roadmap, it clearly says about trading that “The bones are there but we want to add alot more”. I’m unhappy with how it is too, mainly because I’m going for the dreadnaught ship and all that extra cargo won’t be very worthwhile if the profit is minuscule compared to extra fuel cost due to weight(Which hasn’t been implemented yet) and extra supply consumption due to a much larger crew. I’m not sure why people are complaining so much when this game isn’t even half complete yet.
I also figured lore-wise there’s probably large shipping companies with dozens of cargo ships that mean you can’t really profit effectively from just trading bulk goods. (Implied somewhat by the wolfstack exchange comment)
[quote=penknife]I’m just not sure why some people are so determined that the game has to have a significant trading component. The point of the game is to explore, complete various stories, and fight other ships and sea monsters. Yes, you have a ship and the ability to buy and sell things, and it is occasionally possible to make a small profit by buying and selling things in the right places, but getting hung up on the fact that’s not generally profitable feels to me like arguing that a zombie apocalypse game isn’t complete because you can’t settle down and build a profitable retail store among the ruins of civilization, rather than getting busy with your shotgun. If you want to make money, do Blind Bruiser/Admiralty missions and storylets in the various ports until you’ve raised your stats enough to be able to hunt monsters and pirate ships effectively, and then get out there and start hunting.
edited by penknife on 7/28/2014[/quote]
Trade encourages exploration. You have to find the good routes. Furthermore, I don’t see why stories can’t be woven into trade routes and relationships - either through legal trade relations or illicit smuggling.
edited by Galdis on 7/29/2014
[quote=Galdis]
Trade encourages exploration. You have to find the good routes. Furthermore, I don’t see why stories can’t be woven into trade routes and relationships - either through legal trade relations or illicit smuggling.
edited by Galdis on 7/29/2014[/quote]
That’s literally in the game already though. (Cursorily, I mean the smuggling could use a lot more depth, and there’s only a small number of options at this point, but also less than half the content is actually in the game at this point)
There are an awful lot of trade goods, and places to buy and sell them at different prices. They’re a significant part of the UI. Unless you’ve spent a while going from port to port and noticing that everything costs a lot more to buy than you can sell it for (or you’ve played Fallen London, where the sells-for-half-the-purchase-price thing tends to apply, perhaps) it looks like a trading game.
If you’ve spent a little while touring from port to port, it still looks like a trading game - just a difficult or unbalanced one.
[li]