Steel feedback.

Sorry, I’m not trying to claim any special skill. I agree it’s really easy to die with a new character under the new system but it was really easy to die with a new character under the old system too (especially if you picked non-combat starting options).

It’s possible my view of things is slanted because I started my new character under the beta branch of Steel where you could just steam right towards enemy ships and they’d turn around and run away giving you a free shot, so maybe that got me through the awkward early stages.

I do agree overall that the ships need rebalancing, especially the newbie ship; more importantly, enemy ships need their maneuverability significantly nerfed, because right now they have a HUGE rate-of-turn advantage that can turn new players into sitting ducks very easily.

I still think the best overall advice is &quotembrace death with your first few characters.&quot Part of roguelikes is taking it on the chin every so often, and that’s part of Sunless Sea too. If you pick the &quotpreserve a skill&quot option you can ladder yourself up a fair bit and each new death is an opportunity for growth!

I don’t think that those problems are condemnations of the whole new system though. Remember, we’re only seeing about, what, a month or two’s worth of development on the new combat system? This is just the bare, raw framework.

EDIT: if your goal is just &quotignoring combat,&quot ehh, I get that you just want to explore but combat and danger seems like a necessary part of that to me. You can’t have a terrifying underground ocean without sea monsters and pirates, and I want to fight those sea monsters and pirates. In terms of immersion and feel, this combat is a big improvement over the old combat. The old combat was monotonous and boring and grindy and broke my sense of sailing on an underground ocean because it ignored the terrain and landmarks and coastlines and was just HIT BUTTON. Now when I’m battling a sea monster, I’m not just HITTING BUTTON, I’m chasing a sea-serpent through the Labyrinth of Eels, or being chased by pirates through the Phosgene Bleaks. There’s an added element of strategy (I can’t run away forever or I’ll run aground!) but more importantly there’s increased immersion because the combat is constrained by the geography in a way it wasn’t before.

Would you be happier if &quotold combat&quot came back, or if there was just a mode select on startup that turned off combat completely?
edited by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy on 10/13/2014

I would prefer old combat than just turning off combat entirely. There was a fun sense of tension for me because I had to pick the right cards, memorize each beasties patterns, ect. That made it fun without the trouble the new system brings, not to mention they wouldn’t make me waste so much fuel. It fit more with what my own idea of immersion is for this sort of game.

[quote=Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]Sorry, I’m not trying to claim any special skill. I agree it’s really easy to die with a new character under the new system but it was really easy to die with a new character under the old system too (especially if you picked non-combat starting options).

It’s possible my view of things is slanted because I started my new character under the beta branch of Steel where you could just steam right towards enemy ships and they’d turn around and run away giving you a free shot, so maybe that got me through the awkward early stages.

I do agree overall that the ships need rebalancing, especially the newbie ship; more importantly, enemy ships need their maneuverability significantly nerfed, because right now they have a HUGE rate-of-turn advantage that can turn new players into sitting ducks very easily.

I still think the best overall advice is &quotembrace death with your first few characters.&quot Part of roguelikes is taking it on the chin every so often, and that’s part of Sunless Sea too. If you pick the &quotpreserve a skill&quot option you can ladder yourself up a fair bit and each new death is an opportunity for growth!

I don’t think that those problems are condemnations of the whole new system though. Remember, we’re only seeing about, what, a month or two’s worth of development on the new combat system? This is just the bare, raw framework.

EDIT: if your goal is just &quotignoring combat,&quot ehh, I get that you just want to explore but combat and danger seems like a necessary part of that to me. You can’t have a terrifying underground ocean without sea monsters and pirates, and I want to fight those sea monsters and pirates. In terms of immersion and feel, this combat is a big improvement over the old combat. The old combat was monotonous and boring and grindy and broke my sense of sailing on an underground ocean because it ignored the terrain and landmarks and coastlines and was just HIT BUTTON. Now when I’m battling a sea monster, I’m not just HITTING BUTTON, I’m chasing a sea-serpent through the Labyrinth of Eels, or being chased by pirates through the Phosgene Bleaks. There’s an added element of strategy (I can’t run away forever or I’ll run aground!) but more importantly there’s increased immersion because the combat is constrained by the geography in a way it wasn’t before.

Would you be happier if &quotold combat&quot came back, or if there was just a mode select on startup that turned off combat completely?
edited by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy on 10/13/2014[/quote]

I don’t mind having combat, but I didn’t want to have to make it my entire focus. In the old system, I could get over it and go on my merry way. I could swat down weaker things and pay attention for the bigger things. I could form a strategy and pull it off. I could even avoid it if I wanted. As it stands? It does not improve my immersion at all because I don’t enjoy it. I haven’t found a single bit of the new content yet, and I am losing money left and right, and I can’t bring myself to play for more than a few minutes at a time without getting tired of it or annoyed at it. I can only back up and wait for bars to fill so I can hit a button so many times.

I can’t understand what you’re saying about the new combat system being more strategic, really. You back up. You wait for bars to fill. You fire. It is equally monotonous, boring, and grindy as the old system once you figure it out. But in the old system, I could queue things up and not pay attention to how monotonous, boring, and grindy it is when the enemy’s something basic. You make it sound a lot more pleasantly exciting than it is. You CAN, in fact, run away forever without hitting ground, just turn away from the land. And you better, because it is the only functional strategy. The times I have died after I figured things out (and started avoiding bats like the plague) are because I got tired of losing ground and tried something different. Of course, I’ve barely got away from London without giving up my will to explore, so all I’ve fought is pirates and crabs.

And the game has claimed to allow for different styles of play. You’re supposed to be able to go out and hunt or pursue trade or pursue stories. Now? The only thing that keeps you from constant combat is an incredibly lowered concentration of enemies, trade is something I can’t figure out because of how limited everything is and I lose money every time, and the changes are keeping me from exploring.

I don’t really think requiring that someone dies every one or two steps out from the port until they can handle the zee and giving them a really specific needed build to survive helps anything. It certainly doesn’t help having more than one option of playstyle. A lot of what people say you need to survive on the zee is stuff you need to purchase, and you don’t keep money between deaths. And money is the hardest thing to get at the start.

I never had a problem with dying in combat in the old system once I gained some competence at it. Because I could avoid combat. The things that killed me were running out of money (because it was still difficult to get a good cash flow) and supplies or hitting high fear or trying to fight something big and scary I’d never seen before. I felt like I could attain basic competence right out of the gate with a new character and blind experimentation. I could get away from things. I died because I made a bad decision, not because I dared peek out of the harbor and ran into a damn bat.

I had great, harrowing experiences in combat on the zee that added to the story that was going on behind it. I decided to explore, and I had a mutiny near the Khanate. I survived it by killing most of my crew. We crawled back toward London, torn between avoiding combat and diving into combat for supplies. I stalled right outside the harbor and only survived because a pirate ship attacked and we took their fuel. That was great. As it stands now, my great story about high life on the zee is about how a bat sat right behind me and took down a third of my hull because I couldn’t face it. That is the dullest combat story I have heard in my life, and it was really irritating to experience.

It’s a lot of effort for no satisfying reward is what I’m trying to say, I guess? And I feel like I’m being jammed into a specific style of play and character.

MidnightVoyager has fairly eloquently summed up my position on the matter.

Edited to add:
I particularly agree with &quota lot of effort for no satisfying reward&quot. If you can’t avoid combat (and I think you should be able to avoid things that will sink you, short of unfortunate positioning in Mt. Nomad’s path. The old system had a good balance on that) then there should be some feeling that you’re getting something out of it. As it is now, it’s just depressing.
edited by Kirr on 10/13/2014

^True.

[quote=MidnightVoyager]I don’t mind having combat, but I didn’t want to have to make it my entire focus. In the old system, I could get over it and go on my merry way. I could swat down weaker things and pay attention for the bigger things. I could form a strategy and pull it off. I could even avoid it if I wanted. As it stands? It does not improve my immersion at all because I don’t enjoy it. I haven’t found a single bit of the new content yet, and I am losing money left and right, and I can’t bring myself to play for more than a few minutes at a time without getting tired of it or annoyed at it. I can only back up and wait for bars to fill so I can hit a button so many times.

[…]

I never had a problem with dying in combat in the old system once I gained some competence at it. Because I could avoid combat. The things that killed me were running out of money (because it was still difficult to get a good cash flow) and supplies or hitting high fear or trying to fight something big and scary I’d never seen before. I felt like I could attain basic competence right out of the gate with a new character and blind experimentation. I could get away from things. I died because I made a bad decision, not because I dared peek out of the harbor and ran into a damn bat.[/quote]
Great points here, I agree with the first part in particular.

To be honest I expected to hate the new combat system (and must admit I haven’t started a game completely from scratch as I used a legacy from an earlier game when Steel was released) but after a steep learning curve, using saves when I took a lot of damage and tips from this thread I am managing. What was really helpful was the Jillyfish demo that Failbetter tweeted earlier today I hadn’t even thought of turning my lights off to sneak up behind a beastie but it worked. Though I am pleased it wasn’t a Jillyfish, Lorn Fluke or Mount Nomad that I tried it against.

I must say though that if I was a newcomer to the game and hadn’t played, read the advice and was in the starting ship with just a deck gun it would be really disheartening to get killed so easily. The pirates and beasties close to London are really fast and nearly impossible to evade, I wish that the player’s ships were as manoeuvrable as some of the things you have to fight, at least part of that is where they pivot - player’s ships from the stern and the enemies seem to be from the center. Also starting stats make it difficult to kill the things.

So it definitely needs re-balancing somehow - slow down the things near London, make player ships easier to handle and set the starting stats slightly higher, maybe. Then I think it could work.

Do we have to opt out of the Steel Beta to get all of the new updates?

[color=#009900]Thanks for the feedback, folks! A quick cross-post from the KS thread, because I’m ankle-deep in content:[/color]
[color=#009900]
[/color]
[color=#009900]We are rebalancing, and will keep on rebalancing - the earlier enemies in particular are trickier than we’d like for starting characters, and now their AI is better, we’ll be making them less agile. I should add that you can pause the game with the spacebar, and issue orders which will take effect when your’e unpaused… this doesn’t feel very obvious right now, and we’re working on ways to make it more obvious. Judicious pausing makes everything feel a bit calmer.[/color]

Thanks Alexis! In this case I feel it’s probably 50% proper balancing issues and 50% of people just not knowing how to use the system properly. The video demonstration you’ve released is nice, but what’s really needed now is to buff up the ingame tutorial - update the information in it and make it more accessible and understandable to new and old players alike.

(also a more apparent indication of when an enemy has spotted you would be nice; makes you know whether you’re too late to turn off your lights in order to gain the advantage)

Hah, as one of those people I agree with this. Helpful in-game tutorials and easier minor enemies with better drops would fix 90% of my problems.

The other 10% is that I want to be able to run away from hard enemies and come out of easy battles unscathed. I don’t know if that’s a common desire though, or if it’s just me.

Something I’m fairly sure is not just me, though: fuel. Loot drops don’t make up for the extra burnt fuel. And it’s a knife-edge of economic balancing at the start. If I have to start taking 5-7 extra fuel on each trip - and might just get supplies or trade goods from enemies even if the drops are better balanced - then, again, it’s tilted the early game from &quottough&quot to &quotnightmare, close the window&quot. I suppose that could be rebalanced on the economics side, but it does make the sight of an enemy actively frustrating.

[quote=Kirr]
Having given it more thought, I think my real problem is with the conflict difficulty being absurdly skewed and making the early part of the game hellishly hard. Everyone here is giving good tips, and once I’ve got over my frustration I’ll put them into practice. But the point is that I should be able to download and start the game as a new player, no legacies, fresh from Fallen London, and have a chance of surviving my first half-hour without having to min-max right out the gate. I expect to have to check forums for tips in mid- or late-game, that’s fine. But in the first battle?

I don’t think this is a problem with the model itself. I do think there need to be many more easy enemies, evasive options in battle, and ways to avoid the harder monsters until you’re in a better ship. Sunless Sea is unforgiving, certainly. But there’s a difference between unforgiving and relentlessly demoralising.

I would like to try the new system when it’s better balanced.[/quote]

…after reviewing this entire thread, I have to say this post here really gets to the heart of the matter: older, experienced players with legacies may be finding ways to work around the combat system (or exploit AI issues) but completely new players are getting overwhelmed. A few players have pointed out that the game has always been this way – but the new combat system makes it even worse.

I also would like to add that this isn’t just a matter of starting enemy speed or damage – it’s more an issue that stats like hearts or veils don’t really have corresponding actions in the battle system anymore. Evasion and flanking techniques – which now appear to be the sole province of engine power and ship weight – were originally stats that helped balance starting characters. In other words, a character with high veils might have an advantage even if they lacked high iron or mirrors. Now, that advantage is gone – and characters are forced to favour stats in iron or mirrors.

I’d personally like to see more options like evasion or &quotobscure energies&quot added to the combat. That might help alleviate some of the problems faced with stats.
[li]

Thanks Alexis - it is still a good game, a few more combat tweaks and I’m sure it is going to be wonderful.

The new Islands are beautiful, I like the Jillyfleur near the Cumean Canal and they are much nicer to fight than the Unfinished Pirates that were there before and I am loving the Varchas content, though it is a pity that it is so far away. Keep up the good work and I am looking forward to more new story content.

Wait, so you believe that those among us who are dissatisfied with this new system are either idiots who just haven’t figured it out yet or are simply too impatient and bound to love it unequivocally once it has been a bit further in development? Seriously :| ?

Wait, so you believe that those among us who are dissatisfied with this new system are either idiots who just haven’t figured it out yet or are simply too impatient and bound to love it unequivocally once it has been a bit further in development? Seriously :| ?[/quote]

Woah zailor. Way to take a generic comment out of context way too personally. Any new implementation takes time to understand how it works and how to work best with it, and not everyone is going to immediately know all that.
edited by Nenjin on 10/13/2014

Wait, so you believe that those among us who are dissatisfied with this new system are either idiots who just haven’t figured it out yet or are simply too impatient and bound to love it unequivocally once it has been a bit further in development? Seriously :| ?[/quote]

Woah zailor. Way to take a generic comment out of context way too personally. Any new implementation takes time to understand how it works and how to work best with it, and not everyone is going to immediately know all that.
edited by Nenjin on 10/13/2014[/quote]

It was a little unfortunately phrased; I had to take a mental step back and delete my first response. Nobody likes it being implied that the problem is they’re too stupid to use a system properly. I recognise that wasn’t the intent, however, and it was meant to imply &quotthis needs ingame tutorials and the learning curve as it stands isn’t working for many people&quot. Which I agree with.

False dichotomies are a pet peeve of mine, hence probably my annoyance at that comment :/

So I’ve got the hang of this combat system at last. It works, but the greatest issue is the lack of oppurtunities to learn useful techniques without trawling the forum for advice.

I killed my first ever life berg last night! I was sad at the lack of a decent reward for it but I killed the damn thing!

A source of infinite money? Uh, yeah, that sounds like a bug :p