Relative location Of The Neath and Elder Continent

So I guess my question is: should I consider the Neath essentially a different dimension? Like… hollow earth style. The canal is the ONLY known way in or out (besides the hole that shines on Aestival) and until the Bazaar pulls down a city, the surface and the neath are entirely independent of one another. Anything discussed in Fallen London/Sunless Sea that isn’t explicitly the surface is part of the Neath.

So what I’m picturing is: before London became the 5th city all those other places like The Elder Continent, The Iron Republic, Polythreme, That big mushroom, Varchas and Irem etc had been (or &quotare&quot and &quotwill be&quot in Irem’s case) entirely independently existing in the neath since whenever they showed up. The elder continent is below Africa/southern Europe somewhere but also has the neath roof over it. The citizens of the neath, while perhaps (definitely in the Khanate’s case) descended from residents of the other cities, have existed independent of the surface for time immemorial. There is essentially an entire second world below the surface that doesn’t follow the surfaces rules.

Additionally, I’m assuming the surface basically follows our rules. The whole &quottalking animals&quot and &quotsphinxes made of whispering rock&quot bits are neath thing that were as weird to Londoners when they first showed up as anything else? Like… the surface wasn’t some equally weird and esoteric thing before the Bazaar. Surface monkeys were just monkeys, surface cats were just cats.

I’m not wondering about specifics of when any of those other places showed up or if london was involved in any of them or the timelines… just trying to wrap my head around the world I’m exploring in these two games because it only just occured to me that the Elder Continent wasn’t just Africa and was some other subterranean continent.

[quote=easter]So I guess my question is: should I consider the Neath essentially a different dimension? Like… hollow earth style.[/quote]There is a vague lore concept known as the Treachery of Maps that handwaves this.

[quote=easter]The canal is the ONLY known way in or out (besides the hole that shines on Aestival) and until the Bazaar pulls down a city, the surface and the neath are entirely independent of one another.[/quote]Not quite true. There is the Travertine Spiral that leads to the Surface. In the event of an apocalypse-level event in the Neath (say, the LIberation of Night), this will be the path most surviving civilians take to exit.

Furthermore, the Surface is aware of the existence of the Neath, though given that the only major interactions comes in the form of zailors and traders, it’s only natural that Surface-dwellers are skeptical of the tall tales of the Neath. Living devils from Hell? Walking squid creatures? Really? The nations of the Surface also have their own schemes; there’s a hint that some Surface nation is trying to mint currency out of Nevercold Brass, and there are occasional visitors/spies here to learn about the Neath.

[quote=easter]The elder continent is below Africa/southern Europe somewhere but also has the neath roof over it.[/quote]Attempting to define the location of the Elder Continent relative to the rest of Earth is a prospect of mere speculation and is relatively insignificant. I, for instance, would find it poetically significant to have the Elder Continent, as the site of the Garden, be located beneath Africa, the origin of Homo sapiens, but there is no hard evidence, as far as I know, to suggest any relative location.

Also, note that if London were to return to the Surface, it would likely destroy Naples when it resurfaces.

[quote=easter]The citizens of the neath, while perhaps (definitely in the Khanate’s case) descended from residents of the other cities, have existed independent of the surface for time immemorial. There is essentially an entire second world below the surface that doesn’t follow the surfaces rules.[/quote]Population figures are difficult to ascertain, but most residents of the previous cities suffered a more terrible fate. The Khanate successfully managed to break off from the Fourth City and the influence of the Masters, but most weren’t so lucky. The Second City was crushed before its people could execute their escape plan. Survivors of the Third City can be found in the Tomb-Colonies. I can only think of three confirmed survivors from the First City.

Many of the local settlements in Sunless Sea appear to have been settled by former Londoners. The origins of the rest are something of a mystery: Varchas closely resembles Angkor Wat but barring that the Hindu and Khmer influences are undeniable; Irem resembles Iram of the Pillars; and, of course, the Elder Continent human population seems to be entirely separate from those of the Surface.

[quote=easter]Additionally, I’m assuming the surface basically follows our rules. The whole &quottalking animals&quot and &quotsphinxes made of whispering rock&quot bits are neath thing that were as weird to Londoners when they first showed up as anything else? Like… the surface wasn’t some equally weird and esoteric thing before the Bazaar. Surface monkeys were just monkeys, surface cats were just cats.[/quote]Yep, though there are a couple notable differences. While the usual methods don’t work, there have been instances where Surface-dwellers have entered Parabola. A lot of the weirdness in the Neath is its own, but some came from the outside. The Correspondence hypothetically should still work on the Surface, and the eye-stealing sorrow-spiders hypothetically should function.

[quote=Azothi]Attempting to define the location of the Elder Continent relative to the rest of Earth is a prospect of mere speculation and is relatively insignificant. [/quote] Right, but I more mean… it’s an entirely independent continent that exists underneath the surface and south of Naples. The cardinal positions at least seem pretty stable with &quotnorth&quot being as big a deal as it is. Avid Horizon can be assumed to be further north than Naples and the Elder Continent further south.

[quote=Azothi]Furthermore, the Surface is aware of the existence of the Neath, though given that the only major interactions comes in the form of zailors and traders, it’s only natural that Surface-dwellers are skeptical of the tall tales of the Neath. [/quote] But I mean BEFORE London was carried away by bats there was no historical record of the Neath. There might be record of cities disappearing but as far as the vast majority of people knew, the world of the Fallen London universe and our universe were the same.

[quote=Azothi]Also, note that if London were to return to the Surface, it would likely destroy Naples when it resurfaces.[/quote] Would it? Is the canal straight up? That completely changes the engineering of the canal. I always assumed Fallen London was more or less where London had been and the canal was just really long and winding as really tall.

[quote=Azothi]Population figures are difficult to ascertain, but most residents of the previous cities suffered a more terrible fate. The Khanate successfully managed to break off from the Fourth City and the influence of the Masters, but most weren’t so lucky. The Second City was crushed before its people could execute their escape plan. Survivors of the Third City can be found in the Tomb-Colonies. I can only think of three confirmed survivors from the First City.[/quote] I mean… yeah the cities themselves went down but like… if London suffered a doomsday event then places like Port Cecil, Abbey Rock and Demeux Island would keep chugging away the same way as the Khanate and when the 6th City showed up they’d be viewed the same way we view Visage, the Chelonate and Varchas. I’m not talking survivors, I’m talking descendants of survivors.

The Neath is separate by any reasonable standards. If it weren’t, Irem (from the Arabian desert) would not be so far to the north and slightly to the east of Varchas (southeast Asia, probably Cambodia).

A good portion of Khanate citizens died when London fell. If I’m not mistaken, the Khaganate is a splinter faction - a large one, but not one that covers a healthy majority of what was Karakorum.

Descendants and survivors of those from the cities are found throughout the Neath - the Cladery heir’s mother (around for a few thousand years), the Capering Relicker, the King of 100 Hearts, and the Manager of the Royal Bethlehem all stuck around from the first city, plenty of second city folks found homes in and out of the Bazaar, there are definitely third-city survivors about, and so forth.

Also, not all of London fell evenly. Mutton Island ended up off the coast.
edited by JainaEgo on 5/25/2018

[quote=easter]But I mean BEFORE London was carried away by bats there was no historical record of the Neath. There might be record of cities disappearing but as far as the vast majority of people knew, the world of the Fallen London universe and our universe were the same.[/quote]Ah. Yes, that seems to be the case. There is an unpublished letter (fragment) hinting at Parabola dating to 1821 in this universe, but that would just be between family.

There are some other historical divergences that we may or may not be able to attribute to London falling, notably the lack of a unified German state and France potentially having an emperor by the dawn of the 20th century (which seems to indicate that France did not lose the Franco-Prussian War), but I think this isn’t really what you’re asking for.

[quote=easter]Would it? Is the canal straight up? That completely changes the engineering of the canal. I always assumed Fallen London was more or less where London had been and the canal was just really long and winding as really tall.[/quote]In the Season of Skies conclusion story, it is established that if the Roof above London were to part, the ground beneath Naples would part with it.

[quote=easter]I mean… yeah the cities themselves went down but like… if London suffered a doomsday event then places like Port Cecil, Abbey Rock and Demeux Island would keep chugging away the same way as the Khanate and when the 6th City showed up they’d be viewed the same way we view Visage, the Chelonate and Varchas. I’m not talking survivors, I’m talking descendants of survivors.[/quote]Well, yes. I probably could’ve done a better job communicating what I meant. I meant to say that the Khanate is something of an exception (as Mongols tend to be) in surviving and prospering as they did, given what remains of the first three (especially for the Second City, which would have had a good millennium to grow and develop) - or, at least, that we are biased because they are more recent.

The other interesting thing was that not all humans in the Neath are descendants of the ones who came in the fallen cities. Varchas and Irem both appear to have somehow ended up in the Neath separate from the interference of the Bazaar, for instance.