It’s certainly not on my part. I’d just like to see robust game mechanics at play (and am a little bothered by the necessary limitations of the present system.) Hell, if Quirks were preserved exactly as they are, and a replacement system used instead (a la, for instance, the old Sacksmas items still sitting in some folks’ inventories), that would work too! I don’t begrudge you your 144 Hedonist - I just think that preserving that 144 Hedonist wouldn’t be adequate reason for not implementing a better system that would benefit everyone.
Edit: To borrow your own comparison, the old K&C system was kind of cool, but it was loaded with problems and would never have been practical for a game the size Fallen London is now. The new system isn’t perfect either, but it’s considerably more solid, and if anyone had said we shouldn’t have implemented the new one because some people had got high ranks in the old one, well, I don’t think that would be sound reasoning at all. edited by Sir Frederick Tanah-Chook on 7/28/2015
Which is why they reworked it and debuted a new system, which works fine.
There was no reason to clear out everyone’s old ranks just to placate completionists; which is what is being proposed.
Which is why I mentioned the idea of preserving the old Quirks as legacy qualities and implementing a new system to replace them. I never had placating completionists in mind - just making the system more story-focused. My objection to grinding wasn’t that grinding, or reaching high levels, are bad in themselves - it was that a soft cap system means that Quirks reflect story decisions only so long as we pre-emptively grind to the soft cap, making grinding effectively mandatory if one wants to enjoy the full benefits of a story-centric Quirks system.
(Edits: toning down language and making tenses used right) edited by Sir Frederick Tanah-Chook on 7/28/2015
I see the core divide here as being between Trophiers and Completionists. Trophiers are the players who collect one specific thing and boost it as high as they can, as a mark of accomplishment and personal story, a trophy. Completionists are the players who bend and flow like water and want to fill every possible gap without regard to specific trophy qualities.
Trophiers favor a rigid system, slow difficult gains coupled with highly voluntary losses. Basically change and error are not an option and should be punished harshly once set upon a specific path towards a specific trophy because that makes it more difficult to obtain. The meaning is in that difficulty.
Complitionists want a flexible system, fast rapid gains coupled with volatile and near unavoidable losses. It’s not about "gotta catch them all and pump all numbers up at the same time" so much as it is the ability to bend and flow and fill gaps in story and lore as they form. A flexible system accommodates error and favors change. There will always be that one option which no one can get to and it is up to them to burn everything to the ground and go for it.
The needs of the two groups are near opposites. Normally they don’t butt heads like this as the content for trophies is often very clearly separated from the content for completions. The issue here is that the old old system very strongly favored trophy-ism. It allowed numbers to skyrocket but generally had no useful purpose (no story locks). The new system is using the quirks as story locks in an ever increasingly prominent way. As the mechanical role grows, so does the amount of lore locked due to funneling of folks into a few popular quirks rather than having a broad spectrum of people spread out everywhere.
As the gaps and cracks form and the mechanics and lore lost grows more and more and becomes more important, the competitionists become increasingly at odds with the trophy mentality. Why should these gaps go unfilled for the sake of a trophy? Why should this trophy be lost for the sake of some gaps? Both sides have merit and story is just as important as a good trophy. It’s just sort of a shame the way this all shook out to put us so at odds with one another. edited by NiteBrite on 7/28/2015
Personally, I just wanted to make my ideas clearer, and I’m keen to emphasise that, knowing Failbetter’s plan for the system, everything I’m saying here is purely academic, and I don’t bear anyone involved the least ill-will. I’m happy hearing all of your viewpoints, and I fully admit that the ideas I think are rational and desirable might be riddled with unworkable holes if put into practice! edited by Sir Frederick Tanah-Chook on 7/28/2015
Sorry to intrude on the debate at hand, but I’d like to mention that Slowcake’s Exceptionals has a new option that raises Magnanimous and lowers Heartless. The option functions similarly to the Hedonist equivalent on the same item. If anyone’s curious as to its text, feel free to check my profile for the “A Lost Cause” entry.
Not sure if anyone’s posted the results of the drinking contest with the ballerina yet, but the text can be found in my profile (didn’t really need it for the quirks, I just couldn’t resist the idea).
For anyone stuck in the dead zone of 10-11, content like this functionally doesn’t exist.
Also, I think there is some ambiguity on what exactly the quirks are supposed to mean. At present, they are just (appropriate enough) quirks. If they are going to become traits for content gating, then they’ll need to be balanced or retired for a new system.
If more Connected Items get moved over to work like the Old Bone Skeleton Key – where it’s not just a high-level quirk polisher but also raises your Steadfast up to 15 if you grind Criminals to high Renown – then the dead zone will hopefully cease to exist. In the meantime… the dead zone is a tricky but not insurmountable challenge to overcome! There are ways past it! For most quirks.
Good point. This is part of why I don’t plan on raising my Renown until I need to. What’s the effective cap on Criminals Renown for someone with ridiculously maxed-out Shadowy, around 50? That’s a decent amount of emergency Steadfast; you only have to hit it 5 times to cross the dead zone, although getting unlucky would definitely make you waste some.
If your RNG is a demon and makes you lose as soon as you don’t have 100%, then perhaps 26 or 28.
If you mean “when the chance hits 1%”, that’s around … 0.6S/(6R)=0.01 … 10*S=R … if you buff to 300, then 3000?
(and it hits 50% at renown 60).
OK, what am I missing on this Skeleton Key? I have cashed in 7 favours a couple of times now, but no increase in Steadfast… just me, or am I being clueless?
Steadfast is also able to be boosted all the way up to 15 using the Criminals’ Renown building option on the Old Bone Key after you get 15 or more Renown.
indeed, I will add that, once there’s another quirk converted over, so I know for ssure that it won’t be changed soon… like the change of “closest to” happened
… Paranoid much? As much as a seeker, yes.
I unintentionally nuked all of my hedonist attempting to get certain soul stealing devils to leave me alone. And of course it turns out you can’t even get that quality low enough to get rid of those cards, adding to my regret. Needless to say, I’m looking forward to playing the relevant storylet as soon as I get the relevant qualities.
Personally, I’d prefer they left quarks alone and used a new quality for whatever quarks are turning into but I’ll presume they have a good reason for doing it this way and trust their judgement in the matter