Not to sound unsympathetic to your plight, but I fear it’s contradictory to say as such after joining Knife and Candle. As you’ve said yourself, it’s a dirty game. To join is to commit to the idea that you might have any of your hard-earned gains stolen from you at any given moment. Was it unsporting of your opponent? Absolutely. However, they did nothing wrong. Tis how the game is played, and whether they need those items or not is, sorry to say, irrelevant. Knife and Candle is not a gentleman’s game, and manners are by no means a mandatory part of it.
Nonetheless, you have my sincerest condolences for being victimized in such a vile manner. Rarely have I seen a case of such poor sportsmanship in the Leagues, although this is far from being an isolated instance.
[quote=Red Herring]
Nonetheless, you have my sincerest condolences for being victimized in such a vile manner. Rarely have I seen a case of such poor sportsmanship in the Leagues, although this is far from being an isolated instance.[/quote]
I’m a bit confused about how exactly this was "poor sportsmanship" on the other guy’s part. Isn’t the goal of the game to ambush other players and try to take their stuff? Wasn’t he just doing what you do in Knife and Candle? I doubt he knew that the OP had been saving up for those items forever and had JUST gotten them. Sounds like it was just a case of really bad luck. And what does it matter if he has more than one of the items? Are you supposed to quit once you get one of everything or is it okay to keep playing to get more stuff to sell or just for the challenge of it? For all the other guy knew, the OP was also sitting on 20 of those knives and thus wouldn’t miss one.
I guess I just don’t see how it’s poor sportsmanship to play the game as it was meant to be played.
That said, I do feel really bad for the OP, as it really sucks to work hard to get something only to have it immediately stolen, but again, I think it’s just a case of crappy luck rather than the other guy doing anything wrong.
I think the issue really is that the iron leagues are setup to be a hardcore zone of cat and mouse that is stacked heavily in favor of long term players. It’s meant to facilitate such predatory thefts and behaviors, cutting out otherwise pesky complications of moon duels rules and structure.
In other words, it’s totally the wrong place to dump new and helpless players. Ones who don’t know they have just entered the hardcore stealth zone. Ones who stay out in the open, unaware they are meant to hide. The iron league is being played correctly I’d say, by people using it to rob and get lots of loot fast, it’s just, it’s a place you should need to work your way up to once you’ve become skilled in the moon. I blame the game for having the iron league as default. That’s like an adventure game having a default setting of Impossible difficulty. Sure you can turn it down of you know how, but most people are going to start a game assuming it’s defaulted to normal difficulty, which just isn’t the case with the iron leagues. edited by NiteBrite on 12/8/2015
[quote=NiteBrite]I think the issue really is that the iron leagues are setup to be a hardcore zone of cat and mouse that is stacked heavily in favor of long term players. It’s meant to facilitate such predatory thefts and behaviors, cutting out otherwise pesky complications of moon duels rules and structure.
In other words, it’s totally the wrong place to dump new and helpless players. Ones who don’t know they have just entered the hardcore stealth zone. Ones who stay out in the open, unaware they are meant to hide. The iron league is being played correctly I’d say, by people using it to rob and get lots of loot fast, it’s just, it’s a place you should need to work your way up to once you’ve become skilled in the moon. I blame the game for having the iron league as default. That’s like an adventure game having a default setting of Impossible difficulty. Sure you can turn it down of you know how, but most people are going to start a game assuming it’s defaulted to normal difficulty, which just isn’t the case with the iron leagues. edited by NiteBrite on 12/8/2015[/quote]
I was always under the impression that the Moon League was the more difficult league, so it’s interesting to find out it’s the opposite. I was totally intimidated by the thought of entering the Moon League, given how utterly awful I was at Iron League. Now I wonder if I should have stuck with it and given it a try. Sounds like I may have had better luck.
[quote=Kukapetal]I’m a bit confused about how exactly this was "poor sportsmanship" on the other guy’s part. Isn’t the goal of the game to ambush other players and try to take their stuff? Wasn’t he just doing what you do in Knife and Candle? I doubt he knew that the OP had been saving up for those items forever and had JUST gotten them. Sounds like it was just a case of really bad luck. And what does it matter if he has more than one of the items? Are you supposed to quit once you get one of everything or is it okay to keep playing to get more stuff to sell or just for the challenge of it? For all the other guy knew, the OP was also sitting on 20 of those knives and thus wouldn’t miss one.
I guess I just don’t see how it’s poor sportsmanship to play the game as it was meant to be played.[/quote]
Well, certainly.
However, attacking contacts you’ve acquired from an unrelated event of cooperation and mutual gain such as Hallowmas does leave a slightly bitter taste in the mouth. I am not saying that they were inherently wrong to do so, but it’s a callous move on their part; one that was quite possibly unintentional, and if so, all is well. But the possibility remains that they used Hallowmas to target such players, which I find a bit unsporting. Not unfair. Not reprehensible. Just unsporting, and in poor taste. edited by Red Herring on 12/8/2015 edited by Red Herring on 12/8/2015
I haven’t responded because I believe we’ve discussed the matter previously and I was unwilling to spend any more actions to say all the same things.
In fact I’m very new to K&C myself, but as I’ve told you before, I believe that if you sign up for the Iron League, you are a part of Knife and Candle. You sign a contract with Mr Iron agreeing to attacking and being attacked by the other members. This is the entire point of the game.
I don’t think it’s right to say "I signed up just to get free stuff so nobody has the right to attack me". This may not be against the rules of the game, but I believe it is against it’s nature.
I don’t discriminate against any people that show up on my attack list. In fact, I don’t even check their profile most of the time. If they have K&C items, they probably fought for them, and if they don’t, my attack won’t do them any real harm.
At the end of things, you won your knife back, fair and square, and I have no qualms about it.
But I will not give any promises not to attack you again as long as you are a part of K&C.
Now I admit I may not be the most polite person if the Fifth City but to be honest, if you don’t want to be attacked, maybe you should not sign for K&C. edited by Danko on 12/8/2015
You’d have a much better time in the Moon League. Every duel is totally by consent only, and you are free to withdraw at -any- time up until the final attack. It’s a little slower since you have to boost your stats three times before the challenged player makes their attack, so its 4 total social actions. But it gives you time to think about your moves, to take your time, really get a feel for the stats and mechanics. You can still get robbed by an elusive attack, but you have a lot more chances to see it coming or to protect yourself against it with things like gambits. It’s a lot more fair basically, and you never have to get stabbed if you don’t want to be.
Additionally, where the Iron Leagues are played by expensive lodgings cards, and having POSI status, and lots of connections etc, you need -nothing- to play the moon leagues. There’s no disadvantage to being a new player without expensive stuff if you play in the Moon League. You also get a free form change after every duel, so you can try them all out and refine your strategy. It’s like, 1000 times easier and new player friendly. Definitely worth giving a try. All it takes to join the moon league is to have a knife and candle form and to play the storylet in the gameskeepers cottage in watchmakers hill. You have to get a form again for the first time when you enter the moon leagues, but after that you never have to wait for cards or a sense of urgency again. edited by NiteBrite on 12/8/2015
I haven’t responded because I believe we’ve discussed the matter previously and I was unwilling to spend any more actions to say all the same things.
In fact I’m very new to K&C myself, but as I’ve told you before, I believe that if you sign up for the Iron League, you are a part of Knife and Candle. You sign a contract with Mr Iron agreeing to attacking and being attacked by the other members. This is the entire point of the game.
I don’t think it’s right to say "I signed up just to get free stuff so nobody has the right to attack me". This may not be against the rules of the game, but I believe it is against it’s nature.
I don’t discriminate against any people that show up on my attack list. In fact, I don’t even check their profile most of the time. If they have K&C items, they probably fought for them, and if they don’t, my attack won’t do them any real harm.
At the end of things, you won your knife back, fair and square, and I have no qualms about it.
But I will not give any promises not to attack you again as long as you are a part of K&C.
Now I admit I may not be the most polite person if the Fifth City but to be honest, if you don’t want to be attacked, maybe you should not sign for K&C. edited by Danko on 12/8/2015[/quote]
Don’t use elusive if you dont need the items, you didn’t need to steal them so why would you? That’s just needlessly taking away someone else’s items for no reason at all, how would you like your overgoat taken away by someone? Especially if they had several and didn’t need another one? Be polite and use savage/baroque. Especially if that person hasn’t said they are participating on the forums. I had to lose two moods I had been saving for months to get them back and I lost 30 something echoes of the brass rings that you sold. I lost a lot and you lost nothing for no reason.
This also exists for a reason: http://community.failbettergames.com/topic1632-knife-and-candle-the-underground-leagues.aspx
You used hallowmas to take advantage. I wouldn’t be on anyone’s contacts if it wasn’t for that. But I thought it would be nice to do a social thing with the other players and didn’t think anything bad could come of me cooperating with players for mutual gain.
There’s nothing wrong with attacking other player with Elusive. It’s part of the game, and you can always go up to the Moon League or drop your form to be fully guarded from Iron League theft without losing the free perks that come with the game. I highly recommend the Moon League to anyone who isn’t interested in majorly participating in Knife and Candle - that’s the place you want to be for your particular K&C playstyle. You can even prevent Elusive attacks entirely while still participating in duels within that League.
It still hurts though. Especially since its ambush tactics in the Iron League. It’s fairer in the Moon Leagues, but I still remember what it felt like to lose waxwail in a duel for the first time. And that was to a close friend who I’d been training up, teaching strategy. One day he noticed I had taught him everything there was about K&C strategy, except how to attack elusive. Spotting this gap in my technique he thought he’d show me the student had surpassed the master and struck my weak point, the blind spot I had willingly left open to my trusted friends. And it hurt you know, and that was even with him giving the stuff back right away and apologizing. So I understand the tearful archaeologist being upset, it’s quite an upsetting thing to happen especially since the game doesn’t really ever prepare you for it. It blindsides you the first time it happens.
Even when its a consensual moon duel it can be rough. When you add in the anon aspect or the drive by aspect of the iron league it can drive you wild. I had some less than proud moments in my past trying desperately to defend one of the original 100 mirrorboxes for sure, it just drives you mad. Oh man, and probably no one here even remembers how robbing people was practically mandatory for seeking mr eatens name. We had literal witch hunts for people who robbed each other back then. Entire defensive pacts and revenge corps existed, there was even an attack-on-sight list. I don’t want to go into too many specifics on how the SMEN stuff worked, but yeah those were dark times. Prize tokens were a lot rarer back then too since there was none of this living story business giving them out like free candy.
I’ve mitigated the problem by just endlessly grinding. Now I have 3 wails, so the loss of one is never as bad as it once was. And even if I lost everything, there’s ample tokens out there to rebuild with. But I think, this is just one more reason its bad to start new players in the Iron Leagues. There’s no defense against elusive robbery there in the Iron Leagues. The longer you are there the more guaranteed it becomes you will get robbed, where as you can be as safe as you dare if you are in the moon leagues. So no, there’s nothing wrong with committing an elusive attack. And even SMEN dream robbery was what it was. I just don’t feel its right for the game to dump new players into the deep end with no warning or ability to defend or to take time to learn. Losing a fair fight hurts, but you move on. Losing an unfair fight is just leaves bitter feelings behind. edited by NiteBrite on 12/8/2015
Oh, it’ll definitely sting if you lose something valuable, whether just to you or objectively. Starting players in the Moon League would be a nicer way of handling things and prevent a lot of this sort of thing.
I remember that old SMEN thread for Knife and Candle thefts. Snatching prize tokens from players and running off into Hunter’s Keep was how I got my candle back then, and while I’m sure it did sting for them it was the only way I could see to actually make it. I remember when the Prize Token cost for it dropped, enabling me to get my Candle without having to steal any additional tokens with Searing Enigmas. I never did anger that old thread, but it was a very memorable time for me.
You didn’t lose anything you can’t get back.
The game gives away 12 free Prize tokens with a cap of 20 pretty consistently.
Join the Moon League, drop your form and wait. No need to buy a rifle or anything else.
It sounds like the only real loss was the Knife. The only use for the Shroud is K&C tactics, which you didn’t want to use anyway.
It’s nothing you can’t get back for free and nothing you could have sold for Echoes.
I sympathize with your pain. I really do. It’s not a nice feeling to have stuff taken from you (I’ve had this happen with Waxwail Knives, which are way more expensive and hard to get).
However, as others have said, Elusive attacks are part of the game of K&C and this is how the Iron League works. If you’ve joined the Iron League, you can’t realistically expect all others in the league to never use one of the 3 attack modes available to them.
You seem to see Elusive as a way to steal other people’s hard won stuff. It is, but also it isn’t. Think of it as a game of rock-paper-scissors, with the addition that winning with ‘paper’ gets you items from the one defeated. In such a game, should players be expected to never use ‘paper’? It’s one of the valid strategies designed for the game. You expect people to only ever try either ‘rock’ or ‘scissors’, when the game is called ‘rock-paper-scissors’.
You also seem to think that someone might use Elusive in order to steal your items. That’s definitely not the only reason. Some play K&C just for the challenge of it (trying to get win streaks). Most of the items are inconsequential. You use ‘Elusive’ for the same reason you might use ‘Savage’ - when you think your opponent might be vulnerable to that particular attack mode.
Personally, the only items on which I place any value relevant to K&C are:
Waxwail Knives (very rare and useful)
Brass Rings (can actually be sold for money)
Prize Tokens (can be exchanged for valuable goods - rings, enigmas, etc.)
This is just to show you that different players place different values for such items. And choosing Elusive was probably not done to get your Knife of Lost Sky and Shroud (so it’s irrelevant if the attacker already has such items).
Again - I understand that it hurts (I’ve been there myself). Personally, I only attack by arrangement or to retaliate against others. When I’ve attacked someone by mistake I’ve made every effort to return their items to them. But I wouldn’t expect the same from others.
If you don’t ever want to be attacked (which is valid), go for the Moon League and rest easy.
[quote=Nigel Overstreet]
It’s nothing you can’t get back for free and nothing you could have sold for Echoes.[/quote]
To be fair, there was also a loss of 30 Echoes in Brass Rings and the feeling of time wasted. But, just looking at the tearful archaeologist’s profile: 30 echoes is nothing to smirk out, but there is some 1150 echoes in equipment visible (and I’m assuming you just traded in for the squad today rather than bought it outright), never mind the 6 Airags - I hope you find a 7th! So I’ve somewhat less sympathy for the monetary loss - though I understand the lack of your peace of mind.
It’s worth mentioning I had a smidgen of a public tiff with Danko myself over Hallowmas, where he stated that he was going to start betraying out of shear… boredom I think? and I complained about it - rather jokingly, I hope. Never the less, he did not betrayed me when it came around, and went on to say this:
[quote=danko]
I do find it most amusing how social actions of Fallen London are governed by an entirely community-made etiquette. And everyone is just so polite and courteous to each other, while being impolite is probably the worst crime you can commit.
Let me just say that it is absolutely lovely, and not something I’ve been used to in my harsh northern life at all.
I’ve been avoiding social actions for the whole year I’ve been playing and now I’m thinking I might have been wrong about that. This community really feels unique. [/quote] http://community.failbettergames.com/topic20906-hallowmas-betrayals-for-connected-masters.aspx?Page=4
Yes, there is a generic NPC you can attack, although the results are rather bland compared to attacking a PC. HOWEVER, to do so you must have a ‘form;’ and having a form means you can be attacked at any time by a fellow K&C player. Joining K&C in and of itself does not open you to attack and you can acquire, via Tth and selling Notability, all the K&C goodies without ever attacking or taking a form.
The polite invitation does cost more; in exchange it gives you a very small Talk of the Town boost (+3 CP as opposed to +2CP, I believe?).
The ‘Underground Leagues’ are not sanctioned by Mr. Iron. As far as he and his umpires are concerned, anyone involved in them is just a regular murderer, not a K&C player.
The ‘Underground Leagues’ are not sanctioned by Mr. Iron. As far as he and his umpires are concerned, anyone involved in them is just a regular murderer, not a K&C player.[/quote]
While this is true, the intent of the statement was to point out that if you don’t want to be attacked and have your stuff stolen, don’t join the game for attacking people and stealing their stuff. If that wasn’t the entire point of the game, OP’s complaint probably would’ve garnered more sympathy but as it is there’s not much I can say besides "sorry, but you’re in the wrong place"
Also in response to the hallowmas contacts debate: I make no effort to distinguish between where various contacts came from and they’re all equally likely to receive social actions from me. I’m not in the game right now so this specific situation hasn’t come up but I don’t really see the difference personally.
5 Brass Rings? Last time I lost an Elusive contest, I just lost one at a time. Does an Elusive loss take all your K&C items now?
I’m not saying that losing a Sky Knife doesn’t suck, but in a couple of weeks when you get another one, you won’t care. In a few months, you won’t even remember.
5 Brass Rings? Last time I lost an Elusive contest, I just lost one at a time. Does an Elusive loss take all your K&C items now?[/quote]I believe this refers to multiple consecutive attacks in which several Rings were taken (one at a time).
As others have said, you can join the moon league to duel and perhaps acquire prizes without risk of surprise. You can also take a form and then drop it; you’ll still be eligible for receiving the 12 prize tokens each month when you have under 20. Note that dying while in the Iron League removes all your iron knife tokens and victories, necessitating joining from scratch again, whereas being in the moon league prevents being kicked out for dying.