I’m sure someone has said this before, and I’m not sure it’s the right spot for it, but Persuasive still bothers me.
Why do we use the same stat for charisma and artistic ability? I understand the thematic connection in FL’s structure and setting.
Buuuut it just doesn’t make any sense. Say I want to be a reclusive, misanthropic novelist typing away in my hovel. For some reason, I’m also great at parties? It seems like there are a lot of other stats and concepts that FL could make use of for artistic pusuits.
From the in-game description for Persuasive: "Wit, charm, plausibility. This is your social skills and irresistible charm, allowing you to persuade, convince and charm denizen of Fallen London for your benefit." It’s a little meta, but out of the four main attributes is persuasive not the stat most suited for artistic endeavors? How do very Dangerous people know so much about breeding monsters? Not every story can be perfectly aligned; it’s a best-fit scenario a some of the time. I personally think that artistry and charisma go hand in hand in the Neath (see Bohemians) but I see why you might not agree for RP reasons. FL can be linear at times, and while that can lead to unfortunate RP choices being forced upon you, it’s just how the game is set up. Don’t know if this helped, but that’s just my take on things.
Broadly speaking, I agree. And if we had like 10 stats I would separate them. With a simple four stat game, I think it works better there than anywhere else.
I don’t disagree with any of this. In the universe they’ve built (with its late 19th century obsessions), the pursuit of the dominant art forms of the period seems a natural fit with climbing the social ladder (though perhaps that’s because history has skewed against artists who didn’t fit that archetype). I also agree that granularity has its limits. I’m not ultimately sure what I want out of this. But there are a lot incidental qualities in Fallen London aside from the four main types. It would be nice to see FL bring some of these qualities into its artistic grinds. Could my insanity boost my ability to write a post-modern novel? Could my peckishness result in a more disturbing symphony? Is there any quality of bookishness or even curmudgeonliness [sorry] that could help me pump out satirical plays?
It’s been at least 6 months since I played regularly, so sorry if any of this is outdated…
Most of the options to increase Inspired are fine as is. Two stand out as woefully miscategorized.
"Nature in the Neath" involves absolutely no persuading at all. The only time you see another person is on a failure. It should definitely be watchful.
"The men from the Ministry" explicitly calls for subtlety. It definitely should be shadowy. Hidden messages often get shoved into persuasive despite the fact that "stealth, subtlety, cunning" should almost always be shadowy. edited by Anchovies on 10/31/2017
[quote=Jabberwok]Why do we use the same stat for charisma and artistic ability? I understand the thematic connection in FL’s structure and setting.
Buuuut it just doesn’t make any sense. Say I want to be a reclusive, misanthropic novelist typing away in my hovel. For some reason, I’m also great at parties? It seems like there are a lot of other stats and concepts that FL could make use of for artistic pusuits.[/quote]
Why do we use the same stat for both feats of strength and combat skills? For both stealth and face-to-face deception? For both observation and book knowledge? As others say, the stats are abstract ideas rather than proficiency in individual skills. That said, I too would love more use of neglected qualities over the generalized stats. The new chess social actions do a great job of this.
But don’t forget that Sunless Sea addressed something similar by separating Watchful’s domain into observational Mirrors and academic Pages. What happened? Players objected to Pages being less useful and harder to raise. Simplification may cause some issues but specificity can lead to overcomplication. edited by Optimatum on 10/31/2017
The main stats are best thought of as archetypal values, not specific skills. If you become a Paramount Presence, this is reinforced even further.
What I’d really like to see more of, especially in the late game, are hybrid skill checks. They can create interesting challenges far more effectively than (easily min-maxed) single skill checks, and it makes much more narrative sense.
Bribing a Decency Evaluator? You’ll need Persuasive to get your way, Shadowy to avoid being caught, and perhaps Watchful to find and exploit your target’s flaws.
Breeding a monster? Watchful to know how it is done, Dangerous to actually do it without having your ribs kicked in.
Rather than having tedious luck-based challenges, or extremely difficult skill checks (Over 300), you could just add more stats to the mix. This also means far more items become viable, since it isn’t just about the best specific stat bonus you have.[li] edited by Saklad5 on 10/31/2017
I too think that multi-stat tests should be more common. Only one I can think of off hand is “Hell’s coursers” via seeking curios and secrets in the forgotten quarter. It would give a reason to use items which affect multiple stats but aren’t best-in-slot for any one stat, like the kingscale boots or the cured jillyfleur cloak.
I know it isn’t the forum section to discuss this, but Pages is outright terrible because
its main advantage is faster xp gain, which should never ever happen in a game outside of those "true" roguelikes which could be Olympic sports
passing it on as a legacy attribute hurt your character.
Mirrors is still very good, and Hearts is still kinda bad even though it hasn’t been split into anything. But in an alternate universe where people complained about the relative paucity of Pages checks and FBG listened and added more, the resulting game would’ve been worse. Because power now for power later is bad design in a game that’s not centered on mathematical exploits.
I am not convinced that additional quality proliferation is what Fallen London really needs. It’s already a somewhat problematic issue.
[spoiler]Imagine that you’re a Failbetter author writing a scene where a random Constable can recognize the player character - or fail to do so. Which quality are you going to test? (choose one)
(a) Renown: Constables
(b) Favours: Constables
(c) Making Waves
(d) Notability
(e) Suspicion
(f) Criminal Record
(g) Riding the Savage Cobbles
(h) Spinning the Wheels
(i) Constables’ Pet
(j) Fist of the Bazaar
(k) Respectable
(l) Dreaded
(m) Bizarre
(n) Persuasive
(o) Comprehensive Bribe
Or, for example, imagine that the player character has discovered some letters and diaries revealing that Mme. F. was tasked with seducing Baroness M., but their secret affair blossomed into a genuine relationship. What qualities did the player character gain? (circle all that apply)
Whispered Secrets[/li][li]Cryptic Clues[/li][li]Watchful[/li][li]Shadowy[/li][li]Romantic Notions[/li][li]Touching Love Stories[/li][li]Blackmail Material[/li][li]Favours: Society[/li][li]Favours: Great Game[/li][li]Favours in High Places[/li][li]Journal of Infamy[/li][li]Stolen Correspondence[/li][li]Stolen Kisses[/li][li]Dirty Secret[/li][li]Investigating…[/li][li]Moves in Great Game[/li][li]Vital Intelligence[/li][li]Extraordinary Implications[/li][li]Dubious Testimony[/li][li]Scraps of Incendiary Gossip[/li][li]Inklings of Identity[/li][li]An Identity Uncovered![/li][li]Sworn Statement[/li][li]Intriguing Snippets[/li][li]Compromising Documents[/li][li](insert your own answer here)
You don’t choose one. You write multiple options and let the player choose which is the one that actually happened in that character’s story. Even if the player doesn’t mean it that way.
I’ll just comment that I disagree about multi-stat checks.
They just make min-maxing them more tedious. Instead of switching to the outfit for that stat, you have to go look for whatever’s optimal for a sum of stats…
If there’s multi-stat checks, only one of the checked stats should be something that can be altered by equipment choices. (I do like the idea of checks based on non-standard attributes - Making Waves checks or Notability or so on.)
I know the subject has drifted a bit by now, but in answer to the original question of why is Persuasive use for both artistic projects and interpersonal relations, I’d guess because it basically represents manipulation. Most persuasive checks are an attempt to provoke a desired response in an audience, weather it be a personal favor or an emotional reaction to a text. The reason its still used in checks to create art that don’t seem to involve people is that the check isn’t to determine if you, for example, witness nature, but if you are able to translate that inspiration into manipulating the people who experience the work.
For the record, I think multi stat tests would be a good idea sometimes, as would (explicitly sign posted) areas where you can’t change outfit, to give value to not best in slot items. Whilst my main is absolutely the sort of person to bring 4 or 5 outfit changes with them even whilst spelunking, I thing it would be perfectly logical not to have time to change during a chase scene or something.
And we all should not forget that you can raise Persuasive by carrying around a whole pack of explosives with you, showing just how much of a broad category the skill really encompasses. edited by Maxi Reigl on 2/19/2018
[quote= Saklad]The main stats are best thought of as archetypal values, not specific skills. If you become a Paramount Presence, this is reinforced even further.
What I’d really like to see more of, especially in the late game, are hybrid skill checks. They can create interesting challenges far more effectively than (easily min-maxed) single skill checks, and it makes much more narrative sense.
Bribing a Decency Evaluator? You’ll need Persuasive to get your way, Shadowy to avoid being caught, and perhaps Watchful to find and exploit your target’s flaws.
Breeding a monster? Watchful to know how it is done, Dangerous to actually do it without having your ribs kicked in.
Rather than having tedious luck-based challenges, or extremely difficult skill checks (Over 300), you could just add more stats to the mix. This also means far more items become viable, since it isn’t just about the best specific stat bonus you have.[li] edited by Saklad5 on 10/31/2017[/quote][/li][li]
[/li][li]I agree that it makes better narrative sense, but I suspect it adds greatly to the complexity of adding new material to the game.
[quote=Jabberwok]I’m sure someone has said this before, and I’m not sure it’s the right spot for it, but Persuasive still bothers me.
Why do we use the same stat for charisma and artistic ability? I understand the thematic connection in FL’s structure and setting.
Buuuut it just doesn’t make any sense. Say I want to be a reclusive, misanthropic novelist typing away in my hovel. For some reason, I’m also great at parties? It seems like there are a lot of other stats and concepts that FL could make use of for artistic pusuits.[/quote]
Your introverted novelist may simply be perceived as charming for Some Mysterious Reason when he is lured out of his abode to attend a social gathering.