I’m sorry for warming this up so late, I just want to ask around about a thing that’s been bothering me about the early-game content overhaul and if it’s been bothering anyone else.
For a game with "a thousand choices", it seems like suddenly a broad range of characters became completely impossible.
For example, take my character.
He’s an extremely principled, Lawful Neutral police officer (Watcher on the Constables’ payroll, Velocipede Squad member). He’d break before he broke a law.
With the overhaul? It sounds extremely unlikely he could advance past the first few steps of the Shadowy content. There’s higher-tier Shadowy content that would be interesting for him to do, but with the new system it sounds like he won’t be able to reach it, because that would require him to commit crimes. And he never will, because that’s a core part of his character, which so far I could play as such (and though it wasn’t the easiest, it was easier than in other games. Which I thought was awesome since he’s a rather extreme character in that respect. …we’ll ignore the prison break, there was a paperwork mixup…).
He is also an aromantic asexual. So far, he’s managed to avoid being forced into a relationship.
With the overhaul? Impossible, if he’d started now. If I’ve understood the text to go with the choices correctly, he’d be stuck in the very first tier of Persuasive content, even, because progressing would require entering a romantic relationship. Which he would never willingly do. (I made contingency plans, initially, but they were seven shades of awful and I would not want to do that to him.)
(To add to that, I am aro-ace, and would appreciate not having romance and sex shoved down my throat if I had the choice. Which until recently Fallen London was better about. It irks me especially since it seems you can be any sort of sexual orientation except asexual. Why is what we’re not doing breaking the game?)
Is there anyone else affected similarly - any characters that couldn’t exist under the new approach? I’ve already written feedback, I just want to have a rough feel of if it’s just me shaking my fist at clouds or if it’s a genuine concern… edited by Katistrophe on 8/17/2015 edited by Katistrophe on 8/17/2015
Regarding Shadowy progression, well, even Sherlock Holmes and the other great detectives were known to practice a burglary or two in the pursuit of the law - whether to infiltrate the criminal fraternity, or to secure evidence hidden in the lock-box of a villain. The Velocipede Squad do worse every day in the name of justice. That doesn’t necessarily provide a path through -all- Shadowy content, but I wouldn’t trouble my conscience about conducting heists against the likes of the Brass Embassy or Stainrod and Leadbeater - the less money and power in their hands, the better for the city, I say.
My both characters are neutral-good, the more serious of them managed to reach his status without getting involved in any sort of romance (thankfully), while the other hasn’t managed to take part in the more tempting London’s leisures yet (regrettably).
None of them weren’t struggling to become one of those individuals whos charisma may be described as a legendary.
So, personally I see no issues with a new gameplay architecture, and I am surprised of the fact that you met issues.
Well, the way I see it Katistrophe’s got a point. This game is all about shaping your character, building a persona which you add to as you advance and grow. In his case he’s chosen that he will, under no circumstances, break the law. I have not experienced the game’s new content nor I have not gone through the game keeping this kind of thing in mind, so I can’t tell how big the problem is, but the kind of playstyle Katistrophe has chosen should most definitely be supported in a story and character-driven game like Fallen London.
It is true that many criminal acts are committed in a way which may contribute to a greater good (or a net-gain good, at any rate), but this is irrellevant for Katistrophe’s character. He has chosen that he will not commit crimes, and that’s something he should be fully able to do. Whether the alternative is morally justified or not isn’t what matters.
That the majority of shadowy content revolves around illegal activities is understandable, but having options to avoid breaking the law or even entire storylines of shadowy content which never enter the realms of crime is something I can imagine would be great for the game as a whole.
Shadowy is a measurement of how good a character is at utilizing stealth, subtlety and cunning, not necessarily an indication of lifestyle or personality. The shadowy stat could easily be used for stuff like thwarting crime or vigilante work (although that could technically end up being illegal), and having this as an option would be great! Knowing Failbetter, they could make some absolutely amazing content from this premise.
As an invisible eminence I am all for the idea of new players being able to go the way of the honest shadow. While this kind of content may not be a first priority, I agree with Katistrophe that Failbetter should keep it in mind. edited by Munk on 8/17/2015
[color=#009900]Design notes. This is and has always been intentional. If you don’t like violence, it’s very hard to advance Dangerous; if you don’t like criminal activities, that rules out most Shadowy; if you don’t like sex, drugs and poetry, Persuasive is a bust. People will always find ways to break the system for their own purposes, and that is not only fine but great, but we don’t go out of our way to support it. [/color][color=rgb(0, 153, 0)]Fallen London isn’t an ‘open world RPG’ - it’s a linked cycle of non-linear stories with strong elements of exploration and a lot of choice-based outcomes.[/color]
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[color=#009900]But even if it were - any ‘open-world RPG’ I can think of offers way less choice about character activities than Fallen London. The Witcher 3 and Skyrim are superb, but try playing a poet or a cat-burglar in either. U[/color][color=rgb(0, 153, 0)]ltimately, any pre-written game will rule out the vast majority of roleplaying options. We can’t be responsible for what characters players choose - we rule out a hundred billion options so we can focus on a hundred.[/color][/quote]
Replying to Andrew: So far, yes. And thanks to the access code the Inspector managed to avoid it for good. But if I understand it correctly, romance is now unavoidable for advancing in Persuasive tiers, so had I joined NOW with the same character concept I would have been unable to progress.
It’s not just myself I’m thinking of, mind, or my character. It’s that certain character concepts or even sexual/romantic orientations might be utterly impossible in the future, when they used to be possible without really "breaking" the game. edited by Katistrophe on 8/17/2015
[color=#009900]Design notes. This is and has always been intentional. If you don’t like violence, it’s very hard to advance Dangerous; if you don’t like criminal activities, that rules out most Shadowy; if you don’t like sex, drugs and poetry, Persuasive is a bust. People will always find ways to break the system for their own purposes, and that is not only fine but great, but we don’t go out of our way to support it. [/color][color=rgb(0, 153, 0)]Fallen London isn’t an ‘open world RPG’ - it’s a linked cycle of non-linear stories with strong elements of exploration and a lot of choice-based outcomes.[/color]
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[color=#009900]But even if it were - any ‘open-world RPG’ I can think of offers way less choice about character activities than Fallen London. The Witcher 3 and Skyrim are superb, but try playing a poet or a cat-burglar in either. U[/color][color=rgb(0, 153, 0)]ltimately, any pre-written game will rule out the vast majority of roleplaying options. We can’t be responsible for what characters players choose - we rule out a hundred billion options so we can focus on a hundred.[/color][/quote]
Quoted from this thread.[/quote]
Even in Skyrim, though, one has the choice not to, say, join the Dark Brotherhood or the Thieves’ Guild, one can even destroy the former.
And there’s no obligatory sexual encounters. If a key part of Skyrim’s plot was blocked to me for not sleeping with somebody, I wouldn’t have bought it or enjoyed it.
[color=#009900]Design notes. This is and has always been intentional. If you don’t like violence, it’s very hard to advance Dangerous; if you don’t like criminal activities, that rules out most Shadowy; if you don’t like sex, drugs and poetry, Persuasive is a bust. People will always find ways to break the system for their own purposes, and that is not only fine but great, but we don’t go out of our way to support it. [/color][color=rgb(0, 153, 0)]Fallen London isn’t an ‘open world RPG’ - it’s a linked cycle of non-linear stories with strong elements of exploration and a lot of choice-based outcomes.[/color]
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[color=#009900]But even if it were - any ‘open-world RPG’ I can think of offers way less choice about character activities than Fallen London. The Witcher 3 and Skyrim are superb, but try playing a poet or a cat-burglar in either. U[/color][color=rgb(0, 153, 0)]ltimately, any pre-written game will rule out the vast majority of roleplaying options. We can’t be responsible for what characters players choose - we rule out a hundred billion options so we can focus on a hundred.[/color][/quote]
Ouch, I find that to be a great shame. Perhaps their stance on this might change in the future if they ever come into a position with more time and resources to spend.
Thanks for the quote, o’ well-informed one!
EDIT: Also, calling out Alexis on that cat burglar one. That is quite possible in Skyrim.
EDIT2: Editing my edit for improved comedic timing. edited by Munk on 8/17/2015
I like the new approach in broad strokes - giving each character a series of necessary choices, representing particular story beats in a deliberate narrative arc - but I agree that it would be nice to have some more room for defining our characters’ motives and personalities with that arc. We’ve got all these Quirks, after all - we could have romances end with an Austere option, to have the relationship represent a deep intellectual connection, and a Hedonist option, to have the relationship be rather more physically intimate. Or, take the Area-diving heist, that ends with our characters finding a stash of salacious material, and having the option to keep it, use it for blackmail, turn it in to the authorities, etc. If there were a choice like that at the end of every major story, I dare say almost everyone could find a path through the defined stories to suit their characters. Of course, I say this as if it weren’t a tremendous amount of work to implement, and quite possibly contrary to Failbetter’s design goals in the first place. Idle speculation is cheap, if you’ll pardon my mixed idiom!
Hopefully there are alternatives in the coming revamps for Shadowy and Dangerous - I imagine the Great Game, generally spying and cat-catching and some such would make decent alternative activities, or at least some alternative motive to picking pockets.
Courier works are particularly great since they already exists as low level shadowy content and, well, Nuncio and Bazaar, and there is no reason why they can’t be extended further.
Still, I think Shadowy would be a lot more palatable if the player get some motivation to take the plunge and start breaking the law - from pure greed to something like tracking down a minor nemesis for the relucant.
I imagine most people don’t enjoy the thought of their characters engaging in petty theft, especially when they have other choices (which they do, at the start of the game, from writing crappy poems to gardening, which pays as much). Most people hear "burglary" and think "this is actually dangerous and risky", after all - while they very probably doesn’t worry about being bitten to death by mushrooms in Watchmaker’s Hill.
…And they just got out of prison, too.
edited by Estelle Knoht on 8/17/2015 edited by Estelle Knoht on 8/17/2015
I personally think it’d be great to support aromantic asexual characters, though given that love is at the heart of the game I’m not sure how well that would work in the long run of FBG’s intentions.
Well, we’ve seen that the Bazaar equally interested in stories of romantic love, or familial love, or intellectual love, or any combination of the above at once!
I just came back in the middle of brushing my teeth to comment on that, actually! XD It came to me a few minutes after I submitted that and walked off. I see no reason why it couldn’t be supported even if the player character’s love becomes a big central theme.
I think this is a brilliant suggestion. That’s the kind of additions I’d absolutely love to see to the game, although as you say it will probably take a large amount of work to make all the ends meet.
Design philosophy or not, I reckon that the reason they chose to set things up as they did was mostly to avoid over-burdening the writers. I see no real way in which adding choices such as these could make Fallen London a worse experience, the only downside being the added workload.
That is a very real downside though, unfortunately.
[quote=Sara Hysaro]I just came back in the middle of brushing my teeth to comment on that, actually! XD It came to me a few minutes after I submitted that and walked off. I see no reason why it couldn’t be supported even if the player character’s love becomes a big central theme.
edited by Sara Hysaro on 8/17/2015[/quote]
There’s some sort of precedent for that, even, isn’t there? The "loved one" your character loses in the Nemesis ambition can be a brother or a daughter (and who is to say that daughter isn’t adopted?).
[quote=Munk]
I think this is a brilliant suggestion. That’s the kind of additions I’d absolutely love to see to the game, although as you say it will probably take a large amount of work to make all the ends meet.
Design philosophy or not, I reckon that the reason they chose to set things up as they did was mostly to avoid over-burdening the writers. I see no real way in which adding choices such as these could make Fallen London a worse experience, the only downside being the added workload.
That is a very real downside though, unfortunately.[/quote]
Think of it this way - even in, say, action movies, the heroes inevitably ends up needing to break the law because of injustice and some such, if only for a bit. If they make the earlier, petty thefts justifiable for players more concerned about the law, then they don’t really have to touch the later contents beyond the early game.
[quote=Katistrophe][quote=Sara Hysaro]I just came back in the middle of brushing my teeth to comment on that, actually! XD It came to me a few minutes after I submitted that and walked off. I see no reason why it couldn’t be supported even if the player character’s love becomes a big central theme.
edited by Sara Hysaro on 8/17/2015[/quote]
There’s some sort of precedent for that, even, isn’t there? The "loved one" your character loses in the Nemesis ambition can be a brother or a daughter (and who is to say that daughter isn’t adopted?).[/quote]
Yep, that’s exactly what came to mind while I was brushing my teeth - your love story can very easily be about a lost family member. Friendships too, if they keep building on the Acquaintances.
Given we start the game as homeless, penniless fugitives in a society where "social welfare system" is a four-letter word, a little light larceny almost seems unavoidable - the proverbial crust of bread to keep from starving, if you will. At the same time, there’s always been nice ways to make our moral mark - like that one early card with the lost old gentleman, and the options to "help" him or to actually help him. And by late game, almost everything we do is respectable - Shadowy content turns from crime to espionage and even business management (Mahogany Hall, Doubt Street.)
Ha, my character would have some opinions about stealing a loaf of bread to keep from starving… (“YOU WILL STARVE AGAIN, UNLESS YOU LEARN THE MEANING OF THE LAW” or something of the kind…)
But I get what you mean, and as I said, in that respect my character’s a rather extreme case.
[quote=Sir Frederick Tanah-Chook]
Given we start the game as homeless, penniless fugitives in a society where "social welfare system" is a four-letter word, a little light larceny almost seems unavoidable - the proverbial crust of bread to keep from starving, if you will. At the same time, there’s always been nice ways to make our moral mark - like that one early card with the lost old gentleman, and the options to "help" him or to actually help him. And by late game, almost everything we do is respectable - Shadowy content turns from crime to espionage and even business management (Mahogany Hall, Doubt Street.)[/quote]
The welfare in London is indeed awesome.
The very very very early start of the Shadowy content involves not particularly criminal activities such as:
a) eavesdropping random people like a creep
b) chasing cats like a creep
c) helping a journalist
d) robbing a drunk (with particularly callous description)
With the exception of robbing a sad poor drunk, they are not too unpalatable compared to the other three stats at first. Comparable income, too.
It is only that after 20 Shadowy or so, suddenly it is all about robbing people when the other three stats don’t change much. edited by Estelle Knoht on 8/17/2015
