Knife and Candle-A Radical Suggestion

Let it be known now that I joined Echo Bazaar after Knife and Candle season closed. However, based on research I have determined the following things.

1.Knife and Candle used the dangerous stat.
2.Knife and Candle offered different strategies.
3.Knife and Candle was Echo Bazaar PvP.

Many people have asked for a separate persuasive game equivalent, but I had a different idea. So, due to my love of numbered lists, I will note my goals of this post to clarify further reading.

  1. A Knife and Candle Game where rather than only the dangerous stat is used, a player chooses their attack stat based on their strategy.
    2.A game where a different strategy can give a bonus over other types, so that stat capped players don’t all use Overgoats and watchful. Instead, different strategies can give a boost requiring players to think ahead and try new techniques.
  2. This is a rough draft rather than a true suggestion, which is why I have not created a feedback thread. Here we can discuss the merits of such an idea and work out any flaws before it is presented.
  3. Lastly, I have no understanding of code so if what I suggest merely cannot be done I mean no offense. This is just an idea that we can discuss and try to make work.

Step 1- Knife and Candle using all the Highway Stats.

Is not the pen mightier than the sword? Is not the booby trap mightier than either? Should not a man ( or woman or squid thing) be able to wear their persuasive or shadowy gear to play a story without being worried about being stabbed in the back by blaggards?

In this game a player would pick a strategy that allows them to use their preferred stat to use in Knife and Candle. To give an idea, I propose 8 strategies. Why 8 instead of 4? To allow the player to choose how they wish to fight and give them a greater sense of control about their character.

WATCHFUL


The Strategist
“Their is no denying your brilliance. No need to fight your opponent when you can enjoy tea while they fall prey to your manifold stratagems. No matter which way they turn, they fall into your hands.”

The Investigator
“Let them hide. Let them run. You will find them. No one escapes your detection. And when they are found, you strike.”

PERSUASIVE

The Wit
“Nothing is more dangerous than a word, and your wit is far sharper than any blade. Your opponents will drop dead from shame. Or at least be too embarrassed from public humiliation to notice you stabbing them.”

The Beloved
“Why should you dirty your hands when you have a legion of devoted followers willing to throw themselves in harms way for you? Whether fans of your work or your love, they will do whatever you ask.”

DANGEROUS


The Valiant
“Enough skulling! Enough hiding! Whether with swords or fists, you fight your opponents face to face like a true warrior!”

The Hunter
“You brought down enough beasts with your trusty rifle. This new prey is just like any other. Except less likely to emerge from beneath the marsh mud and eat your face.”

SHADOWY


The Assassin
“Knife or poison you always finish the job. You might have been hired, they might have gotten in your way. Maybe you tire of them playing unhallowed mandolin music in the middle of the night. No matter, when you chose them their death was assured.”

The Shade
“You are one with the darkness. You can sneak anywhere. You can hide. You can wait. And by the time they realize the knife in their back, you gone.”

There, 8 different strategies to give players a unique sense of fighting style.

“But MaskedGentleman you magnificent fool! How will we deal with the fact that watchful has the most power stat bonus making it the de facto choice?”

Excellent question my complimentary friends. Each strategy can give an advantage, so if a player only uses a watchful strategy and has all the best gear they can still lose because someone picked a strategy that fit the situation. This is another advantage of having 8 strategies, players can then pick the one that gives them the edge they need. Lets say its about 10 points.
Strategist - Bonus against dangerous, brains over brawn
Investigator-Bonus against shadowy, because they can find criminals.
Wit- Bonus against dangerous, the pen is mightier than the sword
Beloved- Bonus against watchful, you have an army at your disposal to deal with any trap or pursuer.
Valiant-Bonus against persuasive, your direct nature gives you an edge.
Hunter-Bonus against shadowy, hunting others is second nature.
Assassin-Bonus against persuasive, words will not save you.
Shade - Bonus against watchful, they cannot plan for you.

This way, stats matter but are not the only thing. If its 130 vs 80, the 130 should win. But a 130 vs 130, that strategy can make all the difference.

“But what if two strategies cancel each other out!!” That can happen, but this is still a prototype idea.

STILL WITH ME?


You read all of that? Have a cookie. Didn’t? Go read it. The cookie will be here when you get back. wipes cookie crumbs off mouth Maybe I lied.

Please, ask questions. Propose ideas. Mock my grammar (please don’t do that last one). I know the post is big, but the main idea is still Knife and Candle using all the stats and strategies to add an extra element of planning.
edited by MaskedGentleman on 4/9/2012

I confess that I only perused your post somewhat superficially, but it seems a very good concept. I’ll read it again after I’ve gotten some sleep… :)
I also missed Knife-and-Candle and would absolutely love another Fallen London PvP, but I think one of the developers stated in another thread that this would be nowhere near the top of their priority list… !?

[color=rgb(51, 0, 153)]Ideas are always welcomed but have you posted them in the bespoke Feedback Forums?[/color]
[color=rgb(51, 0, 153)]http://feedback.echobazaar.failbettergames.com/forums/25389-suggestions[/color]

I haven’t done that yet because I wanted to have other individuals review this to look for any obvious flaws, or add something useful that I had not considered. Once I feel like this proposal is no longer a rough draft but instead a well thought out system then I will put it on the feedback forum. I don’t want to propose something that would not be balanced or fun.

I miss Knife and Candle. My alt character wasn’t that great at it, but they were/are an Umpire. Now I don’t even get the Half-Abandoned Mansion opportunity card anymore. I still have the key though so it gives me hope that one day the game will return.

I absolutely love your concept! (And I already know that I’d go for the Shade… :))
And I can’t see any obvious flaws, except that they’d have to write a lot of new text for this, so it’d probably take a lot of time to implement…

Probably, at 130 vs 80 the text would be: A sure thing. Or is it? for the player with 130 and A long shot… but you might win for the player at 80. That way, there is always a slim chance of the underdog winning.
The cancelling out of strategies should not pose a problem: either it would be A matter of luck… it could go either way. Or your 2nd-best/3rd-best/4th-best qualities could be used as tie-breakers, then. If two players with ALL qualities at the same level AND the same strategy face off, maybe they realize that a confrontation wouldn’t be the best idea and decide to leave it for the time being: Something else will happen soon… (they could even end up becoming allies – or more ;) )

But again, if they haven’t something like this lying around in a drawer already, I’m guessing it would take months to write and implement in the game. But I’d give it a vote or three in the Feedback forum, definitely!
edited by Rupho Schartenhauer on 3/24/2015

[quote=MaskedGentleman]Let it be known now that I joined Echo Bazaar after Knife and Candle season closed. However, based on research I have determined the following things.

1.Knife and Candle used the dangerous stat.
2.Knife and Candle offered different strategies.
3.Knife and Candle was Echo Bazaar PvP.
[/quote]

Your information, sir, is slightly incomplete. Knife and Candle used the Dangerous stat for attack, but also used the Shadowy stat (for ability to hide while awaiting your prey) and the Watchful stat (for actual defense). It purported to have actual “strategies” with names almost as flavorful as the one you suggest, but those strategies only had the effect of giving one a bonus if one correctly guessed the “strategy” of one’s prey-- it did not otherwise influence one’s prospect for success.

I like Mr. Burandt’s suggestion for having the game assess your likelihood of success against a particular player by saying things like “A sure thing. Or is it?” or “a long shot…” One could guess that sort of thing by means of looking at player profiles or, at higher levels, the brag board (there was a link you could use to see the top 30 players at any one time), but the “sure thing” etc. would have better flavor.

Originally, the Failbetter crew said they would like to implement Knife and Candle again, but they have not done so, and if they proceed to bring the game to a climax by October of this year it is unlikely they will have the time to do so.

Where have you heard they’re doing that? I dare say I’d hoped the game would last longer than that.

Where have you heard they’re doing that? I dare say I’d hoped the game would last longer than that.[/quote]

On Betterblog, in the post called “A far crossroads” back in July. The post said, among other things:

“Currently, the plan is to raise the cap for the Highway qualities - Dangerous, Persuasive, Shadowy and Watchful - to around 200 over the next year and a bit, until we reach a conclusion at the end of October, 2012. Ambitions will complete around the same time… or perhaps a little sooner. So does that mean you’ll run out of EBZ road? No more Fallen London? Definitely not. Inevitably, we propose to do something a little bit experimental here. We can’t tell you what, exactly, but it’s something that would only be possible with the kind of game EBZ is. Since there’s never been any other game quite like EBZ, it’s also something we believe has never been done before. So, no GAME OVER screen. Ways to continue the experience. But at the same time some closure for the grand arcs; answers to many of the deepest mysteries; and an endgame. In fact several. We’re going to let you keep your mushroom muffin and eat it.”
I’ve been having trouble with this message so I apologize in advance if it posts more than once.

That October 2012 date may have been pushed forward a bit, given that the cap of 130 has been around for awhile now. We could certainly grind 70 more points in each stat by October if the content cap was lifted today, but it would take a lot of daily playing.

Even if all major content is wrapped up by October, that doesn’t mean the game is over. Their will be new players, players who haven’t reached the content boundary, and players who finished the game but keep playing. So by all means let this rest on the back burner.

I really do like the idea of using the luck based titles like Could Go Either Way instead of[color=#FFFF00] [/color][color=#FFCC00]Modest. [/color]
[color=#FFCC00]
[/color]

An idea based on Mr. Burandt’s post-clique wars. A clique could work as a gang to take out other cliques and control territory. Or a player could go at it alone, or even betray their clique. Also, maybe create 3 strategies for each highway stat instead of 2 allowing for more strategy.

Also, thank you Ms. Cathyr for your additional knowledge of knife and candle. While my system might not have been the original, I think it still could be fun.

[quote=MaskedGentleman]Even if all major content is wrapped up by October, that doesn’t mean the game is over. Their will be new players, players who haven’t reached the content boundary, and players who finished the game but keep playing. So by all means let this rest on the back burner.

I really do like the idea of using the luck based titles like Could Go Either Way instead of[color=#FFFF00] [/color][color=#FFCC00]Modest. [/color]
[color=#FFCC00]
[/color]

An idea based on Mr. Burandt’s post-clique wars. A clique could work as a gang to take out other cliques and control territory. Or a player could go at it alone, or even betray their clique. Also, maybe create 3 strategies for each highway stat instead of 2 allowing for more strategy.

Also, thank you Ms. Cathyr for your additional knowledge of knife and candle. While my system might not have been the original, I think it still could be fun.[/quote]

You’re correct. The Betterblog entry I quoted notes that they will not end the game in October; merely that that was when, at the time the post was written, they expected the Ambitions and major story arcs to wrap up. I have no idea whether they’re still on schedule for that.

@ MaskedGentleman: You’re welcome. Had you asked questions right after the K&C season wrapped, I could have given you even more information as I was playing it regularly at the time. I was not the most knowledgeable of players, but I did pretty well.

Other tidbits of knowledge about K&C as it was run: You could choose to strike directly or strike from “the Shadows”, i.e., the concealment your Shadowy rank gave. Doing so also gave you a better chance of a kill. When you struck, that concealment would dissolve and it would take about 15 minutes (real time) for it to fully reestablish.

Also, the computer would not permit attacks by players with stats too out of line with the intended victim. I don’t recall the amount, but I think you had to be within 10 either way (10 above or 10 below) the Dangerous of an intended victim to “see” him as a potential target and thus to be able to hit him at all. The point of that was to make it possible for new players to build a ranking without automatically becoming chum for experienced players to batten on.