Volcanoes are pretty simple. Lava flows up from the mantle, to the surface, and builds a mountain. Of course, we have the Neath in the way. I’ll take a volcano that is almost certainly above the Neath. Nisyros, volcano in the Aegan sea, erupted in 1888. To eurupt, the lava would have to go through air, then to the roof. Of course, people state that the Neath isn’t really below the surface, but I disagree. A simple solution would be for a volcano to build up to the roof of the Neath, and melt its way through, but if that were possible, we’d have some worn-away volcanoes, with lava tubes stretching to the surface. Nisyros would either have to be a huge volcano, beneath the surface, or simply not exist. The latter is impossible, however. Another volcano in the Aegan sea eurupted around 1600 BC, destroying an advanced civilization. To give you an idea of how advanced this civilization was, it has plumbing, with hot and cold water. It is likely the origin of the Atlantis myth. The euruption wiped out this civilization, and had far-reaching effects, from Greenland to China. If it didn’t explode, we’d have a radically different society, today. Either the Neath is only partially real, or this advanced civilization died another way.
The Neath is less adherent to natural law than the Surface. There are no load-bearing columns and the roof of the Unterzee does not cave in. There is a hole in the Neath-Roof which exposes Aestival to sunlight and no analogous point on the Surface. Islands drift from place to place, or the sea around them warps in shape and size.
Given that The Neath’s northern limit appears to be the event horizon of a singularity and its other borders touch upon places that are patently parts of other universes entirely, I think it’s unsafe to assume that it is even a part of the same space-time continuum as the rest of the planet.
The fact that it appears to exist near any particular point in three-dimensional space is just an artifact of three-dimensional minds attempting to reconcile their passage through four-dimensional spacetime during the passage between the Surface and The Neath.
In short - the Cumean Canal comes out near Avernus because that’s where it has to come out and because ships need water to travel on once they exit the tunnel; not because the Neath is physically located under the Mediterranean Sea.
The Neath is a pocket universe unto itself. I have a feeling it’s not “somewhere” at all in terms of what we normally mean by “somewhere”.
I’m pretty sure that the Neath is inside the earth, somehow.
I wouldn’t say the same of the exits.
[quote=GoingFTL]Of course, people state that the Neath isn’t really below the surface, but I disagree. A simple solution would be for a volcano to build up to the roof of the Neath, and melt its way through, but if that were possible, we’d have some worn-away volcanoes, with lava tubes stretching to the surface.[/quote]We really don’t have enough evidence to draw any conclusion, but it’s an interesting idea. It might be good to remember, though, that volcanoes do appear in Fallen London.
[quote=GoingFTL]Nisyros would either have to be a huge volcano, beneath the surface, or simply not exist. The latter is impossible, however. Another volcano in the Aegan sea eurupted around 1600 BC, destroying an advanced civilization. To give you an idea of how advanced this civilization was, it has plumbing, with hot and cold water. It is likely the origin of the Atlantis myth. The euruption wiped out this civilization, and had far-reaching effects, from Greenland to China. If it didn’t explode, we’d have a radically different society, today. Either the Neath is only partially real, or this advanced civilization died another way.[/quote]Yes. The advanced civilization certainly could’ve died another way and, in my opinion, the Neath exists outside of our traditional understanding of the world.
If we assume that the volcano never erupted, it doesn’t change the fact that the Bronze Age collapse came just a few hundred years after the eruption, wiping out the mercantile palace economy of the Aegean Sea that the Minoans once were a part of, along with most civilizations in the region. Honestly, we can’t predict for certain what would be different in the Thera eruption never happened, but I see little reason to believe our history would be radically changed. More likely than not, they would’ve just died with the rest of civilization. They thrived because of trade, and when cities are destroyed and civilizations fall, they can’t survive. Even still, it’s debatable whether the volcano had that great of an effect on the Minoans. It was a disaster, yes, but they still had settlements and a civilization when all was said and done. Historians don’t have a consensus about it yet. Anyway, it’s even not unusual for "advanced civilizations" to fall into disarray and then die. The Indus Valley civilization had sewers and flush toilets four thousand years before London decided to do the same. What I mean to say is that, in my opinion, it doesn’t really matter to your hypothesis whether or not the Thera volcano erupted circa 1600 BCE.
(On an unrelated note, the Thera eruption is no longer believed to be connected with the volcanic ash in Greenland’s ice cores, as they have different distributions of chemicals.)
[quote=slickriptide]Given that The Neath’s northern limit appears to be the event horizon of a singularity and its other borders touch upon places that are patently parts of other universes entirely, I think it’s unsafe to assume that it is even a part of the same space-time continuum as the rest of the planet.[/quote]This.
[quote=slickriptide]The fact that it appears to exist near any particular point in three-dimensional space is just an artifact of three-dimensional minds attempting to reconcile their passage through four-dimensional spacetime during the passage between the Surface and The Neath.[/quote]This part I don’t quite understand, though. Are you suggesting that the Neath exists as a three-dimensional projection of a fourth-dimensional object, hence the geographical weirdness we associate with the Treachery of Maps? Or are you suggesting that we’re traveling through time (as the fourth dimension) by passing into the Neath, thus explaining the geographical weirdness? I don’t mean those as rhetorical questions; I’m actually curious.
As I understood it, we are constantly existing in and affecting spacetime; we move in three spatial dimensions while we constantly move through time. Our motion along time is independent of our motion in the other three spatial dimensions, so we refer to it as a fourth dimension. Our three-dimensional minds reconcile passage through four-dimensional spacetime through the idea of linear time. In other words, passage through four-dimensional space time just sounds like moving the way we’ve done since the beginning.
But anyway, I do agree with your assessment that the Neath is probably not quite part of the universe as we understand it.
[i]But afterwards there occurred violent earthquakes and floods; and in a single day and night of misfortune all your warlike men in a body sank into the earth, and the island of Atlantis in like manner disappeared in the depths of the sea. For which reason the sea in those parts is impassable and impenetrable, because there is a shoal of mud in the way; and this was caused by the subsidence of the island.
[/i]See, no volcanos, we’re fine ;)
Personally I blame Space Dragons.
Well, I realize that it’s typical for Time to be labeled "the Fourth Dimension" but I was referring to four spatial dimensions. In other words - what happens when A Sphere picks up A Rectangle from his two-dimensional plan and sets him down in a different place in his two-dimensional plane universe. Time doesn’t cease to exist for A Rectangle, but time is clearly not "the Third Dimension" either, even if it appears to A Rectangle that he’s teleported between point A and point B. A Sphere knows that time kept on flowing because it was flowing for him at a normal rate, and the third spatial dimension he moved A Rectangle through is one of his native dimensions. "Time" is a "dimension" relative to each individual observer.
In other words, the reason we talk about space-time is to distinguish time from space, not to label it as another dimension of space. Whether the Neath is physically inside the Earth or physically in another pocket of space-time, at some point there’s Something that causes the traveler to move through "hyperspace", if you like, only without noticing that it’s happening. A wormhole. A magic portal. A demonic gate. Call it what you like.
Or, it could just be that it really is the skull of a dead god and things are just weird in there. ;)
I hear the Romans had plumbing too, and that they used lead pipes, and called lead "Plumbum". So, if the hot water came from the volcano that later erupted, that ancient civilization may have been about as advanced as the Romans, but long before them?
Well, I realize that it’s typical for Time to be labeled "the Fourth Dimension" but I was referring to four spatial dimensions. In other words - what happens when A Sphere picks up A Rectangle from his two-dimensional plan and sets him down in a different place in his two-dimensional plane universe. Time doesn’t cease to exist for A Rectangle, but time is clearly not "the Third Dimension" either, even if it appears to A Rectangle that he’s teleported between point A and point B. A Sphere knows that time kept on flowing because it was flowing for him at a normal rate, and the third spatial dimension he moved A Rectangle through is one of his native dimensions. "Time" is a "dimension" relative to each individual observer.
In other words, the reason we talk about space-time is to distinguish time from space, not to label it as another dimension of space. Whether the Neath is physically inside the Earth or physically in another pocket of space-time, at some point there’s Something that causes the traveler to move through "hyperspace", if you like, only without noticing that it’s happening. A wormhole. A magic portal. A demonic gate. Call it what you like.
Or, it could just be that it really is the skull of a dead god and things are just weird in there. ;)[/quote]
Don’t forget A. Square. Say, does Flatland exist in the Fallen London universe? Edwin Abbott Abbott was in London at the time of the fall.
[quote=slickriptide]Well, I realize that it’s typical for Time to be labeled "the Fourth Dimension" but I was referring to four spatial dimensions.[/quote]Ah, thanks for the clarification. I somehow missed that you were referring to wormholes and not 3D projections of 4D objects when it came to the spatial dimensions.
[quote=slickriptide]In other words - what happens when A Sphere picks up A Rectangle from his two-dimensional plan and sets him down in a different place in his two-dimensional plane universe.[/quote]I see Flatland. Take my upvote.
[quote=GoingFTL]Say, does Flatland exist in the Fallen London universe? Edwin Abbott Abbott was in London at the time of the fall.[/quote]Victorian culture and gender roles have changed since the Fall, so the story might be a little different, but I imagine the broad strokes and the unintentionally important mathematics are still there.
A bit of overstatement, no? The Minoans, though certainly impressive civilization-builders, were small fry on the edge of civilization. The contemporary centers of technological innovation were Egypt and Babylon; it was there, not Crete, to which seekers of knowledge repaired. (Note: This includes the Masters, who went shopping for the Second City during the Minoans’ heyday. The city they purchased was most certainly not Knossos.)
Also, the Minoans did not simply disappear overnight when Thera erupted. The explosion was probably a contributing factor in their decline (though of course such a statement is ultimately not provable), but they lingered for many years after, and most of their culture was bequeathed to the Mycenaeans. (Indeed, the results of some current excavations in the western Peloponnese have called into question the assumption that the Minoans and Mycenaeans are different civilizations at all.) The Dorian invasion that ended Mycenaean civilization precipitated a "Dark Age" in which no written records seem to have been produced, but technical knowledge is another matter; when the Greeks emerged from it, they were already demonstrating technological prowess equal to or greater than what came before. In short, the fall of the Minoans had little if any effect on the technological development of human civilization.
None of which really has anything to do with your original observation. Volcanoes litter the Mediterranean (including Vesuvius right at the mouth of the Cumaean Canal), and all the evidence points to the Neath having some relation to that region. I’m afraid the best answer is the one already given: the Neath does not follow the laws of the Judgments, including nitpicky bits about matter not occupying the same space as other matter. How do volcanoes interact with the cavern? Why does it exist in defiance of plate tectonics as we understand it? Perhaps Hell could give you an answer, but even if they did, I doubt we’d understand it. Given all our other issues about talking bees, face-stealing candles, and Sew-Me-Up Feducci ™, I think that’s par for the course.
Yeah, if your bar for suspension of disbelief allows for a love-struck demi-god-like space squid in a magical reality within a reality then magma flows seem like an inconsequential thing to be concerned about, heh.
Suspension of disbelief is a funny thing. Sometimes the big lies are easier to swallow than the small ones.