Hit a wall - I have no goal

Sunless Sea
81

Lets get a couple things straight, this game was not designed to be a trading sim. There are far better sea trading sims out there, its a survival-horror game with rogue-like mechanics, and a steampunk-lovecraftian setting.

Of course Sunlight is broken, we beta players knew this from the moment we figured out how to exploit it back in Diamond(?) release. Yes, its ridiculous and should be an easy fixed, since the checks through the Excise Men don’t really work. You want to know what an even bigger exploit was?! How about no auto-saves except when you entered a port, not after stories? You could literally quit out to title screen if you got a result you didn’t want, and replay the section endlessly until you got the ideal result! Because they are random rolls based on your stats each time. Guess what though? They fixed that, and removed an easy source of Captivating treasures and other goods from exploiters like me originally. I’m sure they’ll get to sunlight as well in good time, they still have more to add to the game yet.

At the end of the day, the theme of the game is trying to overcome an impossible foe, which is the zee itself. Its not meant to be easy to beat in any form, and its only through knowledge that you gain more power over it.

I beat the game once so far, I beat the become wealthy goal back in EA just about a month before release. I didn’t know about the sunlight exploit, so I ground conventionally. Yes, that goal is a grind, but to me it felt like a challenge that taunted me to try and defy it, not a crushing one which was impossible to overcome.

Through experience, the game becomes easier. You learn more efficient tricks at travelling, and you get used to your ship size and how it handles. I’m currently on the becoming the most venerated explorer achievement (about half way there in terms of beating it, I’ve seen 90% of the map). I sold the mansion of my previous game for a townhouse, sold all the heirlooms I’d saved, and bought a Dreadnaught with about 10k in savings. Experience had taught me to be conservative in my money for such a large ship, and boy it was smart, because that ship is a beast to pay for.

Now, still with the starter engine (but with an upgraded Maybe’s Rival), I usually buy 22 supplies to match with the 20 fuel I get from reports and can have a fairly stable ship. I’m not raking in money, but its a steady profit to keep my ship afloat for the business of making the zong of the zee.

Certain ships and ship layouts are better for different purposes, and its only through trial and error that you’ll find out which ones work best for you. A Dreadnaught is not a good purchase if you want to make money, you want it to kill the biggest baddies in the game and take hits like a beast.

In short, its a learning curve. Believe it or not, its nowhere near is bad as it was when the early beta first came out, where it was virtually impossible to make any kind of money that would last forever. There were no ironclad wills, no big payout quests like The Salt Lions, Curator, Adventurer, Principles, or the various officers’ quests.

So, I don’t blame the older players for not having much sympathy for players who don’t pay attention to the opportunities, or accept the experience for what it is when its nothing like when it first got started. Plus, this game’s value is in its story and setting. The controls are not perfect, but they’re solid enough (I’ve been able to maneuver the starting ship through the icebergs of the north end of the map just to avoid Mt. Nomad, and didn’t take a single hit from collisions, these things can handle well if you know how to control them), and it is admittedly a bit of a grind that some players may not like if you take away those story elements and setting.

I’m not saying I was happy all the time playing this game, I haven’t been. But I love it for what it is, and I was very pleased with myself to have been able to beat it on one goal, on its own terms without exploits or saves outside of autos. For you newbies, use the wiki if you’re unsure and don’t care about spoilers, that’s what its there for, and don’t loss heart just because you cannot immediately see a way to crack it, just think it through, pay attention, read the details, and be observant of everything going on.
edited by Gideon Xanthous on 2/14/2015[li]
edited by Gideon Xanthous on 2/14/2015

82

[quote=Moleculor]
Jesus fucking tapdancing Christ, are you telling me that upgrading my engine to a +1500 engine may have screwed me over? That upgrades are downgrades, upgrades are traps, and I wasted my money? ****. I mean, I knew there were a gun or three where they were far more expensive than their stats suggested they should be, but I had no idea that green, bigger numbers meant fucking myself over.

I haven’t seen game mechanics that broken since Shadowbane. That was a game made in 2003, and not a very good one.[/quote]

Hey, Shadowbane was fun for what it was!

Anyway, I think addressed this above, but as I was saying (you responded to everyone else but not me! Sob!) this kind of thing is at best quasi-true. Yes, it takes more fuel if you upgrade your engine, but you also travel faster, which means less accrued Terror, fewer supplies used up, etc. That said, if you’re really having problems, try pursuing the Magician’s storyline for a good chance at an improved engine with a bonus to fuel efficiency.

All in all I think your main issue is you’re playing too carefully. Embrace death. I really need to redo the guide I wrote at the beginning of early access. New players have a really hard time accepting the whole must-die-to-advance thing.

Alternatively, start using the wiki to figure things out. But you need to do one or the other – either start taking risks and exploring and pushing your boundaries to figure out where to, or use the wiki to figure out where to go.
edited by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy on 2/14/2015
edited by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy on 2/14/2015

83

Plus, on a side note, I’m a big fan of Deadliest Catch, and this game reminded me a lot of deep-sea fishing as a profession, and of the first historical trading ship companies during the age of exploration. You are guaranteed nothing, in terms of profit, but you are almost guaranteed that murphy’s law applies. And that your fortune is very much out of your control without hard work, and even then you are not a God.

Every time I made a big profit in this game, or felt greatest, was when I took a little extra risk, and take a chance at not being able to stay afloat, or supplied, and having it pay off.

“Nothing risked, nothing gained.”

84

I don’t have an objection to learning a game.

I absolutely have an objection to trying to learn a game that is also simultaneously lying to me and giving me false information.

85

She.

She cracked open the files.

She might be able to go beyond the .json files and play with the core files.

She is definitely able to pull apart the base files and start digging around.

She can actually pull it all apart and tbh, getting the specific % RNG rolls is something a child could do.

Meh, whatever makes you happy. Anyone “criticizing” the game must be a fool, right?

>Game is unbalanced, EA/Beta should have fixed this. If you bought into it, you’re to blame.

[And please: next time you attempt to call someone out on code, get a clue. Or frakk off with your patronizing bullcrap?]

Oh, sorry: only MEN are critical, right? GTFO of this American sad pandering to semi-fascist nonsense. Luckily not everyone thinks like you.

This is a woman: and she’s telling you you’re full of ZeaCrap.

p.s.

For a game that has a “gender-fluid” archeologist, people on the forums doing gender strikes is just plain hypocrisy. Sure, I expect it on GTA V, but here?

Yeah… not as enlightened as one pretends to be. Busted.
edited by ZeaCat on 2/14/2015

86

I’ve criticised the game myself, the difference is I actually like it, and am looking for ways to improve it, not just pointlessly griping about largely invented flaws for God knows what reason. And whether you’re a man or a woman is quite beside the point.

87

G T F O.

You played a gender card and can’t even back it up with code.

So, I’m “MALE” and “I DON’T UNDERSTAND THE CODE”?

Frakk off, you petulant man-whore.

[Edit - we forget that in America the word “whore” is always female. So, “man-whore” will do.]
edited by ZeaCat on 2/14/2015

88

[quote=Moleculor]I don’t have an objection to learning a game.

I absolutely have an objection to trying to learn a game that is also simultaneously lying to me and giving me false information.[/quote]
What false information, exactly? Does the tutorial tell you to buy a bigger engine? If so, that should probably be changed.

89

[quote=Gregg Johnson]
What false information, exactly? Does the tutorial tell you to buy a bigger engine? If so, that should probably be changed.[/quote]

Yep, this one is male.

Divert to conversation that we all know is a done deal and pretend his ego is intact.

Derp. Anyone pretending that an “upgrade” in any format could possibly lead to lesser / downgraded performance is a frakking muppet.

Oh, yeah.

“IT” must be a “TOOL” of the “OPPRESSION”. amrite?

(Grow up, and gtfo with your back-water analysis already. You’re a tool, and not a particularly sharp one).

p.s.

The really “cute” forum editing, pruning and moving posts is “cool” in the way that 8chan is cooler than 4chan.

Marked.

Noted.

Archived.

Your pathetic attempts at editing are noted.

This (female) blacksmith is telling you to frakk off.
edited by ZeaCat on 2/14/2015

90

ZeaCat, I’m not going to engage further with you. Make of that what you will, but please remember this:

91

[quote=Gregg Johnson]ZeaCat, I’m not going to engage further with you. Make of that what you will, but please remember this:

That’s cute.

See above for your own hypocrisy.

What do I know? Archeologist is mentioned, forum member threatening with mods is throwing >male< threats around, just because we don’t agree?

And, 100%, has no idea about code?

And so if a >woman< (BOOO!!) has any idea about code, it needs crushing?

And if you can’t back it up with code, you need to threaten a forum ban?

Be Seeing You.

Lemming.
edited by ZeaCat on 2/14/2015

92

[quote=Gregg Johnson][quote=Moleculor]I don’t have an objection to learning a game.

I absolutely have an objection to trying to learn a game that is also simultaneously lying to me and giving me false information.[/quote]
What false information, exactly? Does the tutorial tell you to buy a bigger engine? If so, that should probably be changed.[/quote]

The stats are lies.

The game educates you that bigger stats are better. In every case, it does this. Pages, Hearts, everything.

Tons of things in the game have stats. Hell, they even have seemingly pointless, unnecessary or obscure stats, such as &quotSuppression +1&quot or &quotA Doctor Aboard +1&quot or &quotObscure Energies +1&quot.

It particularly shows a stat called &quotFuel efficiency&quot on one officer AND at least one of the engines.

And anything with a negative effect to stats? It displays that as well, in red, with a negative sign.

The engines? Nothing but positive stats. All in green. One engine has bigger numbers than another engine. Like all other stats, this means that this engine SHOULD BE an improvement.

Know what stat the starter engine and engine I upgraded to don’t have? Fuel efficiency. And that’s established as a stat that is present on things that change fuel efficiency.

So when an engine says &quot+1500 Engine Power&quot you expect that to be a flat out straight upgrade with no alteration to fuel efficiency compared to the starter engine.

It is absolute bullshit that people are supposed to somehow intuit that &quotengine power&quot is some obscure multi-stat thing that changes multiple aspects of the operation of the ship, especially when one of the things it changes is already established as a separate stat, even not considering that that stat DOES appear on an engine or two (but that just makes it worse).

If I buy an engine, and it has nothing but improvements to the stats of my old engine, and NO listed downsides as stats, it should not have downsides as hidden stats. Deceit through omission is still lying.

This entire time I’ve apparently been playing on &quotuber-fucking-hard-mode&quot because the devs screwed up and didn’t LIST stats on the engine that they were supposed to. The game is hard enough as it is.
edited by Moleculor on 2/14/2015

93

Moleculor. What does the shop description for the Iron & Misery Company (the one that sells most of the engines) in London say?

Fuel efficiency is NOT fuel consumption. It counteracts fuel consumption. Engines without it all consume fuel at the same rate per point of power.

Power is in fact the most meaningful available stat to display. It directly determines consumption, and speed depends on too many other factors besides which engine you’re using for it to be shown in the tooltip (unless the tooltip dynamically updated, which I don’t think is possible. Would be nice, though.)
edited by Olorin on 2/14/2015

94

[quote=Moleculor][quote=Gregg Johnson][quote=Moleculor]

It is absolute bullshit that people are supposed to somehow intuit that &quotengine power&quot is some obscure multi-stat thing that changes multiple aspects of the operation of the ship, especially when one of the things it changes is already established as a separate stat, even not considering that that stat DOES appear on an engine or two (but that just makes it worse).

If I buy an engine, and it has nothing but improvements to the stats of my old engine, and NO listed downsides as stats, it should not have downsides as hidden stats. Deceit through omission is still lying.

edited by Moleculor on 2/14/2015[/quote]

I didn’t have to intuit this. I read a tool tip on one of the loading screens (where I get a lot of &quotAHA!&quot moments when playing new video games) saying that bigger engines have shoddier efficiency.

95

That I’ll be faster for more fuel usage. Apparently the increase in speed doesn’t counteract that fuel consumption, and in fact the fuel consumption is WORSE than the speed increase, which isn’t explained anywhere. So for a tiny increase in speed, I’ve been burning a ton more fuel. Which means that fuel-per-distance is worse (what I would describe as fuel-fucking-efficiency).

That’s not explained anywhere that I’ve seen.

The description on the shop reads like I’ll consume the same amount of fuel (i.e. have the same fuel efficiency, especially since that stat does not change between most two engines) per distance traveled, but that I’ll consume it faster because I’m traveling faster. Same distance, same fuel usage, faster ship, less time.

Apparently that’s not true, and fuel efficiency has some alternate meaning beyond what normal people would expect it to mean.

Especially considering that &quotfuel efficiency&quot in the real world is described as MILES per GALLON or KILOMETERS per LITER.

If my fuel efficiency stat isn’t changing when I swap out two engines, I should get the same amount of distance traveled per fuel unit. If that’s not what they want, then the engine should show the reduction in fuel efficiency as a visible stat, not an invisible one.

And for those of us who haven’t had that loading screen show up? We’re just supposed to be happy with the game hiding vital information such as this? I’m still seeing new loading screens. The information in loading screens should be reminders of information already discussed or talked about in a manual or a tutorial, NOT brand new vital information never seen before.
edited by Moleculor on 2/14/2015

96

Except it really doesn’t… that’s an unjustified inference. It only says that both of these things will increase, and they do. It also says this is &quotessential for large slow ships&quot. If you want to infer something beyond what the description says, why not that larger engines aren’t essential for small fast ships? Because they really aren’t. The effect on the starter boat is much less than on heavier craft.

I’ll agree, tentatively, that this could be better explained in game, through the tutorial or the advice for captains book. But at the same time, power is really the most meaningful stat that can be shown. But the game doesn’t lie about this, any more than it is lying about the other things it doesn’t explain (lamps consuming fuel, etc.) which, while useful to know, can be discovered independent of a tutorial, assuming you aren’t unjustly biased against seeing them in the first place, and are paying attention.

edit: Anyway, I think I’ve said enough in this regard. If I see a simple hint that might help you I may stop in again, but my argumentative side has reared its head a few too many times already.
edited by Olorin on 2/14/2015

97

Except it really doesn’t… that’s an unjustified inference. It only says that both of these things will increase, and they do. It also says this is &quotessential for large slow ships&quot. If you want to infer something beyond what the description says, why not that larger engines aren’t essential for small fast ships? Because they really aren’t. The effect on the starter boat is much less than on heavier craft.

I’ll agree, tentatively, that this could be better explained in game, through the tutorial or the advice for captains book. But at the same time, power is really the most meaningful stat that can be shown. But the game doesn’t lie about this, any more than it is lying about the other things it doesn’t explain (lamps consuming fuel, etc.) which, while useful to know, can be discovered independent of a tutorial, assuming you aren’t unjustly biased against seeing them in the first place, and are paying attention.

edited by Olorin on 2/14/2015[/quote]

Yeah, I can understand why someone would get confused by this, but I don’t think it’s deceptive or unclear, it’s just something that could be made clearer. Nothing in the game’s statements is false or dishonest. Could be clearer, sure, but it isn’t wrong.

Also, Moleculor, I wouldn’t put much stock in ZeaCat’s &quotanalysis&quot Zeacat is trying to get you riled up and angry and leaving out salient facts. As I went over above, the increase in fuel costs for more powerful engines has other tradeoffs as well – faster travel time means you accrue less terror, use fewer supplies, etc. I’ve put in a lot of hours in the starter boat and I’ve never regretted upgrading the engine.

I don’t think your error is that you bought a fancy engine. Rather, I’d suggest that you are

  1. Not taking enough risks. Half the responses I see you giving are &quotthat’s too risky&quot or &quotI might fail the check&quot or whatever. Ok, so you fail the check; so you die. You start over again and have a chance to take different choices. If you grab a few of the Legacies your character might even be better when it comes back; I just killed my since-early-access Captain three times and my newest is now a stronger character than before the first suicide. If you’re playing with a manual savegame then this doesn’t even matter anyway; if you’re playing Invictus (I play invinctus) then death is a chance to see what all those other story options were that you didn’t get to choose the first time, and thus experience more of the game.

  2. Not taking advantage of resources available to you (the wiki, other player’s advice, starting quests that are designed to get you over the initial hump like sphinxstone, wine to godfall, etc.). When three or four people all suggest &quothey, why don’t you try X&quot, maybe it’d be easier and more productive to actually go try X rather than reply in detail to all of them why each of them is individually wrong and X just won’t work. At least if you actually try it you’ll settle the question – either they’re all right and you’ll get ahead, or they’re all wrong and you’ll prove them so by actually trying.
    edited by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy on 2/14/2015

98

Moleculor, are you playing in merciless or in merciful mode? If it’s merciful just use a little bit of save scumming and take some risks.

As for engine power: I dind’t know that bigger engines consumed so much more fuel than smaller ones, but I played with the Boadicea (1500 engine power) on the starter ship and it wasn’t that game-breaking.

I admit that tutorial could be better, but running sphynxstone taking down every pirate ship in the way is not that hard to figure.

Anyway Sunless sea is pretty hard if you play without the help of the wiki or save scumming, but that’s the same of a lot of games (the Persona serie comes to my mind).
edited by Everett on 2/14/2015

99

I cannot thumb-up enough the last Hieronimous’ post.

By the way, the fact that the engine power does not respond linearly with the weight of the ship -does- mean that you feel the additional power more in bigger ships, but does -not- mean that you don’t have any advantage at all. I like to upgrade the engine quite early in the games I have played; the additional cost in fuel is quite minor and I like that extra kick in movement. And definitely it does not ruin you! My captain is quite happy and relatively prosper even with (I like to think, also because of) the additional initial expense of a new engine.

By the way, not to iterate something that has already been said multiple times, but: if you feel you made some bad choices with one captain, like for example purchasing some upgrade for the ship too soon, the Zee has no shortage ways to die which will allow you to restart with a clean slate and have a more successful run with your next captain, having learned from your mistakes and allowing you to try another path with different decisions to see if it’s better.
edited by Master Polarimini on 2/14/2015

100

Exactly, the game doesn’t lie to you about the stats of the engines, it just comes down to logic. You outfit a starter ship with an engine meant for a dreadnaught, of course its going to burn more fuel because it generates more power in order to push bigger ships, since that’s what its designed to do.

But then again, I’ve been running my Dreadnaught on the starter engines for a dozen runs now and have made do with it (I tried to make The Serpentine, but failed to get a Satisfied Magician, and upgraded Maybe’s Rival to get a little more power).

Think of it this way, IRL, you wouldn’t strap a cargo ship engine to a zodiac dingy, right? You may get more power than a standard gas engine, but that thing will also either sink the dingy or send it flying apart from so much power. Heh, luckily they didn’t through that feature in (except I guess if switch to full power, they may explode).

This is why, to me at least, The Serpentine is the best engine in the game (or one of the best), it combines fuel efficiency with a lot of power, and some pretty nice stat boosts for an incredibly cheap price when compared to other engines.
edited by Gideon Xanthous on 2/14/2015
[li]
edited by Gideon Xanthous on 2/14/2015