I’ve happily enjoyed the Neath for over three years. I’ve been an on again/off again Exceptional Friend. I’m more of a long distance runner than sprinter. I’m a Paramount Presence and have had the good fortune to inform and help other players in the game as a Patron on many occasions. I now have about 1/3 of the amount of Echos to purchase H. cider. If I sold things at The Bazaar, maybe close to half. I have an Ubergoat, which is ~60% effective at The Bazaar when maxed equipped in Watchful (~300). What I’d like to know is whether a Heptagoat or H. Cider is more worth pursuing? Regards, Jamit.
In terms of practical use, the Cider is far more useful. No more dying! The poor Heptagoat, while adorable as all heckity, actually has worse stats (read: it gives no Watchful boost) than the Ubergoat, and has no practical uses.
That said, the Heptagoat (probably because of this) is much rarer than Cider, and so Goats would get you more bragging rights, if that’s a thing that matters.
[quote=Barse]In terms of practical use, the Cider is far more useful. No more dying! The poor Heptagoat, while adorable as all heckity, actually has worse stats (read: it gives no Watchful boost) than the Ubergoat, and has no practical uses.
That said, the Heptagoat (probably because of this) is much rarer than Cider, and so Goats would get you more bragging rights, if that’s a thing that matters.[/quote]
Thank you, Barse! I actually just looked at The Bazaar prices and was wondering if the price of H. cider has increased? If so, my calculations are off by a smidgen. Nonetheless, I do appreciate your feedback. I wasn’t entirely aware of what use a Heptagoat would be. If this question is out of bounds, then please let me know: What happens when you go North and have H. cider? Regards, Jamit.
The cider does not have any special interactions once you have gone north.
Thank you. If I may be of assistance then please call on me. Regards, Jamit.
I find that Wounds are the rarest menace in the endgame, since high-level Dangerous challenges apparently don’t exist. The main time I got substantial use out of it was going for SotC 21. So while Cider is mechanically better from lack of competition, it’s surprisingly irrelevant. These days I mostly use it for social purposes. If a Heptagoat feels more your style, you won’t miss too much.
[quote=Jamit][quote=Barse]In terms of practical use, the Cider is far more useful. No more dying! The poor Heptagoat, while adorable as all heckity, actually has worse stats (read: it gives no Watchful boost) than the Ubergoat, and has no practical uses.
That said, the Heptagoat (probably because of this) is much rarer than Cider, and so Goats would get you more bragging rights, if that’s a thing that matters.[/quote]
Thank you, Barse! I actually just looked at The Bazaar prices and was wondering if the price of H. cider has increased? If so, my calculations are off by a smidgen. Nonetheless, I do appreciate your feedback. I wasn’t entirely aware of what use a Heptagoat would be. If this question is out of bounds, then please let me know: What happens when you go North and have H. cider? Regards, Jamit.[/quote]
The price of the Cider has always been 160,000 Echoes.
In the endgame challenges are so rarely failed that the menaces accumulated with success are probably the bigger issue. Wounds are rare but sticky; there aren’t a lot of ways to reduce them in passing besides a couple of conflict cards, so even just the wounds from accumulating favours from the Great Game card will add up. It’s certainly not enough to justify Cider just to deal with the wounds, but I do find Wounds to be probably the second most effort to keep in check after Scandal.
I’d also imagine people with this much playtime, and who are about to embark on a year-long grind, are very likely to already have purchased Empyrean Redolence and bred the Dream-Hound. In my experience wounds are gained slowly enough that his card pops up usually when I’m at 4 or so - I haven’t died in absolute ages thanks to this.
It would, however, make certain death options more convenient (like the ones needed for St. Arthur’s candle, or if you want to gaze into the mirror at the Carnival for whatever reason - pretty sure there’s a Renown 40 item in there). But most of those are one-time occurences and I think most people will have already done them by the time they get Cider, so seems like the only really relevant use for it is if you participate in a lot of lethal sparring bouts (I think those instakill you nowadays, right?).
edited by Dudebro Pyro on 8/3/2018
[quote=Dudebro Pyro]I’d also imagine people with this much playtime, and who are about to embark on a year-long grind, are very likely to already have purchased Empyrean Redolence and bred the Dream-Hound. In my experience wounds are gained slowly enough that his card pops up usually when I’m at 4 or so - I haven’t died in absolute ages thanks to this.
It would, however, make certain death options more convenient (like the ones needed for St. Arthur’s candle, or if you want to gaze into the mirror at the Carnival for whatever reason - pretty sure there’s a Renown 40 item in there). But most of those are one-time occurences and I think most people will have already done them by the time they get Cider, so seems like the only really relevant use for it is if you participate in a lot of lethal sparring bouts (I think those instakill you nowadays, right?).
edited by Dudebro Pyro on 8/3/2018[/quote]Lethal sparring bouts set Wounds at 8, but they don’t instantly send you to the River. That means that drinking a Tincture of Vigour (or, according to typical duel etiquette, accepting the healing offer from your opponent) will keep you from dying, in addition to any Horsehead Amulets one may have collected over the game.
Fair point. Damn, Cider really is pretty useless nowadays.
When I think of elixirs of eternal life, I don’t usually think of in terms of “How will this facilitate more exciting adventures?” Adventures require danger. Eternal life negates danger. It’s more a goal to strive for, then a tool for the toolbox.
[quote=Dudebro Pyro]… But most of those are one-time occurences and I think most people will have already done them by the time they get Cider, so seems like the only really relevant use for it is if you participate in a lot of lethal sparring bouts (I think those instakill you nowadays, right?).
edited by Dudebro Pyro on 8/3/2018[/quote]
Dueling Feducci, if you are going for high Duelist quality. Similarly useful for hunting spider-councils.
Also useful for cleaning wounds gathered by cleaning nightmares by gawping at a hyeaena … nightmares that you probably got by using cider cards … I don’t remember the EPA on that but it’s not too bad.
(1 action to get 10 taste, 10 actions to get 25 echo and 10 nightmares, ~5 actions to remove nightmares and get 10 wounds (later removed by the first action again) and 0.95*5=4.75 echoes = 16 actions to get 29.75 echoes = 1.85 epa?)
Though my Overgoat is 100% out of character, I kept it since it makes expeditions (and SotC) so much easier. So for me it would be Cider all the way. Unlike the Heptagoat cider does have its uses, and you can always use it in social actions.
Cider has always been much more about it’s meta implications (if you drink a flask of it you can safely return to the surface) and the prestige from owning the most expensive item in the game than it’s been about actual usefulness
The dreams you get from drinking it are interesting, but I’m pretty sure they’re the same if you’re borrowing a sip or using your own
Immortality or a weird smelling pet that eats your drapes? Hrm…
If I’m not mistaken, another difference between buying Cider and getting a Heptagoat is that the latter requires the expenditure of Fate (or more accurately, creating the necessary Ubergoats requires Fate).
Granted, it’s not much Fate, but it does mean that the Heptagoat is Fate-locked, which may be a factor to consider in your decision-making.
Hepta does require Fate and it’s a longer grind than Cider; almost 164k and Impossible Theorem spiced with 7 magic Fate.
Cider has much more sociable uses and, ironically, provides a decently profitable grind. Of course, once you’ve gotten cider you’re not all that in need of vast income unless you also want that heptagoat, and if you do you probably want an even faster grind, but there is profit to be made from immortality.
I appreciate everyone’s input so far on this question. By my "back of the envelope" calculations, this won’t be a choice for over another year. Really, I find end-game grinding somewhat satisfying. I’ve gained the 40 Renoun items for half a dozen factions equally satisfying pursuits. Achieving Courier’s Footprint sometime ago was a pleasant goal to reach. Connected: The Masters of the Bazaar 19 hasn’t yielded any practical benefit that I can tell. I suppose that the journey is more important than the destination (whatever that may be). Regards, Jamit.
edited by Jamit on 8/6/2018