This seems… interesting. I’m not sure if I’ll end up liking it or not but still an interesting change.
One question though: How will this affect the options to raise the 4 main stats (W/S/D/P) on the connected cards? I’ve personally found the Tomb-Colonies and Docks to be most helpful in raising my dangerous and am wondering whether or not such options will be buffed, overhauled or removed altogether.
I am glad this is being looked at; I’ve never been sure what to do with all this reputation past 50 or so; it’s never stopped me from grinding for it and cranking the rep bars, but it’s nice to see we’re going to get something else for it as well. Thanks, Failbetter!
I’m completely okay with this just as long as I can still avoid ever seeing An Intimate of Devils and those other really cluttery infernal cards by keeping my Favours: Hell at zero.
Do you know already when Criminal will be changed for the experiment, or you don’t have yet a clear schedule?
I still think there should be a system of sort that tells not only how you are known to a faction but also how you are disliked/enemy for it, I’m curious to see how the mentioned overlapping effects will be put into play.
[quote=Gillsing]As for the opportunity to trade in our connections before the new system is implemented, will you be making The Smugglers’ Grave and other storylets from An implausible penance available as regular storylets for this purpose?[/quote]This is a good point. For most factions, you can trade existing Connection for various goods anytime you want. But Criminals is one of the very few factions which require an opportunity card to utilize.
So, will have have the opportunity to cache in our Criminals Connections before the change?
How about an option (in a pinned storylet) to use a small amount of Connected:Criminals to force draw the Implausible Penance card?
I really like the idea that there’s some ambiguity as to what Renown means for any given character; the breaking apart of stats into multiple aspects helps facilitate this in a way that reminds me of some tabletop RPGs that have a lot of ambiguously-roleplayed stats that have to be fleshed out by players.
This discussion makes me wonder whether there’s something leverageable for story purposes at various intersections, though, where it would be commonly understood that, for instance:
No Favours, Low Renown = “uh, who are you again and why should we listen to you?”
Some Favours, Low Renown = “we owe this one something”
Many Favours, Low Renown = “I don’t know who you are, but word’s come down that we do this for you”
No Favours, High Renown = can’t be trusted / infamous / burnt up all the goodwill
Some Favours, High Renown = valued ally
Many Favours, High Renown = “one of us”
Adding Turncoat into this mix in bigger ways could be helpful.
[quote=Matthew Cline]So what about the Big Top and Sideshow at the Carnival?[/quote][color=#C2B280]Our current thinking is that these branches will grant a Favour and a small amount of Renown. They’ll have a fairly low max Renown requirement, so you’ll only be able to play them a few times – in fictional terms, think of it as people being welcoming to a newcomer.
This does mean that starting with high Renown will lock you out of a handful of easy Favours. It will still be a large net gain, because raising Renown is Favour-intensive.[/color]
My hard-won Demagogue status, nooo! I guess I don’t mind. If Renown becomes harder to increase the higher it goes, I’ll probably get to keep my “achievement.”
Vanity aside, I quite like this change. It always did seem odd to me that one would go back to “complete unknown” status if one spent one’s favours.
edited by Cedric Appleby on 8/13/2015
How high of a Connections: Criminals quality now will lock us out of future storylets to raise favours and renown? While the idea of easily boosting those factors to higher levels with the current connections sounds appealing, I’d hate to be locked out of any text before getting to experience it at least once. Hopefully players who want to avoid this or simply want to cash out during the to-be-old system will have an easier, more current method of doing so with cards such as the implausible penance, calling in criminal favours in the Flit, and so on.
[quote=Flyte][quote=Matthew Cline]So what about the Big Top and Sideshow at the Carnival?[/quote][color=#C2B280]Our current thinking is that these branches will grant a Favour and a small amount of Renown. They’ll have a fairly low max Renown requirement, so you’ll only be able to play them a few times – in fictional terms, think of it as people being welcoming to a newcomer.
This does mean that starting with high Renown will lock you out of a handful of easy Favours. It will still be a large net gain, because raising Renown is Favour-intensive.[/color][/quote]Hmmm. So the Carnival can provide a few Favours, but it’s a one time thing, never to be repeated for that character for that faction?
According to how you described it, Renown is more for RP reasons (and/or bragging) and will have very little gameplay influence. So this means anyone who starts with high Renown (due to having now lots of Connected) will have harder time getting a few Favours. Sure, if they plan to use those Favours just to increase their Renown, then indeed they have a net gain. But if they want the Favours for anything else, they would be at a disadvantage.
Why not keep those branches in the Carnival similar to how they are now? That is, provide one or two Favours but only if you don’t have any, and give a bit of Renown only up to a low cap.
From Renown perspective, you can still play these storylets but it won’t increase how much this faction knows you.
From Favours perspective, then whether you are known or not, if this faction owes you no Favours at all, you can always bump into a member of the faction in the Carnival and perform some service to gain a Favour.
Today, even advanced players can still come to the Carnival to get Connected with some faction or other for a specific purpose, and that is because the Connected quality can go up or down. With the new suggestion, there would be absolutely no reason for advanced players to ever visit the various characters and faction representatives in the Carnival, and that’s a shame.
Never have I more regretted burning all my Connections for a candle. This looks amazing!
I dunno about bestowing favours even after you’re renowned in the faction. I’ve just read through all the carnival text on the wiki, and only a few of them could be construed as anything more than idle conversation. If you’re past the first impression stage with the faction it doesn’t make sense for them to hand out favours for just a bit of chitchat.
This sounds cool, but some thoughts and questions:
-Is this going to be listed as a new thing in the sidebar, like Notability?
-I like the Favors system, but what would be nice for Renown would be to still have titles associated with each rung/ couple of levels of it. In a RP sense, a little goes a long way- a phrase like Enigma Enkindler or Masterminds’ Master would go a long way.
-I’m totally gonna get 7 of each kind. Watch me. You think you’re gonna make it grind-unfriendly, but I have not yet begun to grind.
-It would be nice to have Renown checks, like for quirks or in games like Pillars of Eternity. I shouldn’t be getting frisked on the way to a ball if I’m “Known in Every Nook” for Society, I guess. Plus since it’s a non-expendable resource like your abilities, it becomes more indicative of character.
-It’d be also cool to maybe have some indication of how “Renowned” certain characters in the game are. Like, it’d be nice to set a Persuasive character’s long term goal to eclipse the Duchess in renown.
-Finally, I don’t think there should be an upper cap on Renown. Title caps are fine, but it’d be a nice thing simply to ratchet up if you so choose.
Will the Favor cap be on gaining them, or on obtaining them? That is, will you be locked out from taking those actions when at 7, or will your 8th simply disappear into the aether when you would earn it?
Because whenever the latter happens, it fills me with sadness. Especially when it’s Fate Locked content, so I couldn’t even go to the wiki to be forewarned.
edited by Ian Hart on 8/14/2015
The main reason I use the conflict cards to grind Affair of the Box is so I won’t accidentally click the wrong thing and get hit with a point of Turncoat. That and it means I’m working through it passively whenever a card shows up instead of committing to a loot carousel.
The more I think about this the more I worry about how this will change the game and how it is played. Though I do trust Failbetter and hope that it all works out.
Going back to gaining Favours via the Carnival - I sometimes end up zeroing my widow to get SBL from the Docks/Widow card, So if I build up renown as I play will I lock myself out of regaining her favour?
One I am really concerned about is Benthic Favours . As, at the moment, that connection is needed to Manufacture Searing Enigmas which I tend to do when I have a mood card so will use it more than seven times. It is also used for two or three high tier conversions including converting Extraordinary Implications to get the Uncanny Incunabulum to manufacture the enigmas.
Other things that won’t affect me but what about choosing or changing Professions. Or opening a Salon. How will this work with the new system?
[quote=metasynthie]No Favours, Low Renown = "uh, who are you again and why should we listen to you?"
Some Favours, Low Renown = "we owe this one something"
Many Favours, Low Renown = "I don’t know who you are, but word’s come down that we do this for you"
No Favours, High Renown = can’t be trusted / infamous / burnt up all the goodwill
Some Favours, High Renown = valued ally
Many Favours, High Renown = "one of us"[/quote][color=#C2B280]I like this a lot, but it’s unlikely to fit well with the volatility of Favours. It would kind of work at low Renown, where rapid changes of attitude make sense, but it would be weird to go from valued ally to outsider because you’d asked for some help with your Scandal.[/color]
[quote=dov]According to how you described it, Renown is more for RP reasons (and/or bragging) and will have very little gameplay influence. So this means anyone who starts with high Renown (due to having now lots of Connected) will have harder time getting a few Favours. Sure, if they plan to use those Favours just to increase their Renown, then indeed they have a net gain. But if they want the Favours for anything else, they would be at a disadvantage.[/quote][color=#C2B280]To be clear, the branches at the Carnival will lock after a rather small number of uses. We haven’t settled on a number yet, but the total value of the criminal Favours you might acquire there is likely to be roughly that of, say, a Storm-Threnody.
At high levels, raising Renown will have dramatic effects on quirks. It might make sense to reduce your Connected if you’d like as much control as possible over those, but I don’t think the Carnival branches are a compelling (mechanical) reason.[/color]
What will happen with connected items (old skeleton key, …)?
Currently they require a certain level in the connection to work at all, and I think that’s part of why some people might be uneasy about being locked out of carnival’s storylets. We want our guaranteed way to get the first point. Even if it is significantly more expensive than waiting for a connection card, or perhaps requires high levels of renown.
ETA: specifically, I don’t like the idea that spending favours would lock me out (almost all?) ways to gain favours.
edited by xKiv on 8/14/2015
edited by xKiv on 8/14/2015
[quote=Flyte][quote=metasynthie]No Favours, Low Renown = "uh, who are you again and why should we listen to you?"
Some Favours, Low Renown = "we owe this one something"
Many Favours, Low Renown = "I don’t know who you are, but word’s come down that we do this for you"
No Favours, High Renown = can’t be trusted / infamous / burnt up all the goodwill
Some Favours, High Renown = valued ally
Many Favours, High Renown = "one of us"[/quote][color=#C2B280]I like this a lot, but it’s unlikely to fit well with the volatility of Favours. It would kind of work at low Renown, where rapid changes of attitude make sense, but it would be weird to go from valued ally to outsider because you’d asked for some help with your Scandal.[/color][/quote]
Now I’m amusing myself thinking of permutations of Favours and Renown that might represent different relationships with different groups. Like, someone with High Favours, Low Renown with Criminals might be a perfectly respectable shopkeeper who’s fully paid up their protection fees and lets people use the lane behind their property for deliveries. Low Favours, High Renown with Bohemians might be someone who’s marvellous at a party, but who is not allowed to borrow money or stay in the spare bedroom for a week again until they start showing some respect for others. Low Favours, High Renown with the Constables might be the sort of person featured in a newspaper article that ends "…who is known to the police", while the reverse might be some dreadful society bore whose only interaction with working police officers has been a tirade along the lines of "I will have you know that I am very good friends with your Chief Constable and I want this mess cleaned up immediately!"
[quote=xKiv]ETA: specifically, I don’t like the idea that spending favours would lock me out (almost all?) ways to gain favours.[/quote][color=#C2B280]I’m not sure where this worry is coming from. In the opening post:
edited by Flyte on 8/14/2015