[quote=Zero][quote=Optimatum]Beware our beginnings? Were WE the Thief all along!?[/quote]I already read theories about the player character being the Thief-Of-Faces, but I don’t exactly remember the details. Can someone enlighten me?[/quote]It would explain the Thief-of-Faces’ truancy in all stories except in name.
That isn’t weird at all. There’s (was) a whole social action for it! You can appear as a ghost to someone on the Surface if you are dead.
http://fallenlondon.wikia.com/wiki/Haunt_someone_on_the_Surface_instead[/quote]
Despite that being a close to perfect argument against my idea, I have a few more points to make. The wife died on the surface, incinerated by the sun. Since death is an iron rule in the surface, and whatever remained was consumed, I feel rather certain she is not coming back.
Also there was a twenty year gap between her dying, and her ghost appearing. Thats pretty large for a revenge seeking ghost.
edited by suinicide on 5/11/2016
I suspect we’re on the right track here…
I just wonder if we’re looking for a specific in-game thing, or just an observation about the story?
I have lots of theories about the story, it was my favorite! I’m just not sure how to test them.
Perhaps the daughter is the thief-of-faces. It would explain the strange ghost- no such thing actually happened, it’s just the thief’s excuse to look for the duke- and why she’s so willing to reconcile. And it would be a rather tragic and ironic end for the duke.
Or maybe I’ve just gotten a little paranoid.
Paranoia is reasonable. But I ruled that out because there was a reconcile option at the end. Of course, I still can’t say Anything with complete certainty.
[quote=Gilphon]Perhaps the daughter is the thief-of-faces. It would explain the strange ghost- no such thing actually happened, it’s just the thief’s excuse to look for the duke- and why she’s so willing to reconcile. And it would be a rather tragic and ironic end for the duke.
Or maybe I’ve just gotten a little paranoid.[/quote]
That doesn’t make sense to me. If the daughter really was the Thief, why would she be willing to reconcile at all instead of killing him for the secret, or let the player get away with taking it themselves?[li]
I’m suggesting that the ‘reconciliation’ is a deception- she kills him soon as the player’s stopped paying attention.
If the player takes the secret, she can’t prevent that without breaking her cover- she can’t let it be known she was really after that all along. But perhaps the Thief will put another plan into motion, in that case.
I am unconvinced by the secret ToF identity. Firstly, I don’t buy that it or its consequences amount to a “tragic truth”. Secondly, what Cash is talking about is something that players missed. What we have been discussing seems to stray more into the realm of speculation.
The mystery I found the most interesting, and that I desperately hope is explored more deeply in future content, is the Old Man. Everything about him as a character is fascinating. The one mystery that’s very relevant to this story though is how he intended to claim the secret, which was the beginning of this whole series of events. Was he in some way responsible for how it ended?
Edit:Has anyone tried playing the Woods of Winter card at various points in the story? It’d take weeks to test every meaningful step in the story, but that’s likely either the memory of the Duke, or a memory that the Duke mistook for his own, and either way it’s highly relevant.
Edit-Edit: Possible (probable?) deception, the daughter is the Old Man’s agent. That’d explain the weirdness of her story, and it suggests that yes, in the reconcile ending she does eventually kill him and steal the eye. It certainly matches her behavior after you kill him.
Edit-Edit-Edit: and/or his wife was the agent, which is why she was human, but also not actually his wife.
edited by Ian Hart on 5/11/2016
edited by Ian Hart on 5/11/2016
edited by Ian Hart on 5/11/2016
The woods of winter card? I think I missed that. Whats it about?
Edit: whoops, thought it was a brand new card for this story.
edited by suinicide on 5/11/2016
The only reason I feel like I might be on the wrong track is that I think this theory was already mentioned, either in the forum or on saint-arthur. It might have just been a discussion I had with my friends.
All the facts do seem to add up for The daughter to have been an agent. It’s even foreshadowed in him failing to recognize his wife.
I’m afraid I don’t know anything about the old man. I think I heard he was an agent of the judgements? Is this true? Who is he?
Unfortunately I didn’t screenshot any of Waltz, so I’ve just gone on a tangent rereading Flint instead.
I don’t think it’s possible for the protagonist to be the Thief of Faces:
- I cannot think of any implication that the Thief is ever unaware of his identity. He seems to keep his motivations in any form.
- You meet many characters on the lookout for the Thief, and none of them suspect you. Snuffers identify you as human. The Pilgrim-Wakers think the Thief follows you, but only on one of your meetings — so that doesn’t seem like a clue.
- It seems unlikely that the Thief has a soul, let alone one unrecognized by devils.
- Going meta, this storytelling decision would repel many players.
On the other hand, it is fun to speculate:
- A handwavy explanation about the Thief possessing people rather than imitating them could remove some of the objections above.
- Alternatively, we could read willfully too much into the Thief changing its "self" as well as its shape.
- The Art of Murder ending makes more sense if you’re the Thief. (The ritual succeeds.)
- The player recognizes part of the Thief of Face ritual map in Art of Murder, for no clear reason.
- The player’s face can change in Unwell Flint. This follows a draught supposedly similar to cherty griswine… but it doesn’t seem so. The Thiefy revelations could be memories.
I think this is the relevant echo from the story
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Antifinity?fromEchoId=7680318
He doesn’t refer to him “by name” there, but it’s clear from the Woods In Winter card in the Nadir, and the Triplets certainly do.
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Antifinity?fromEchoId=7679842
There is a lot of speculation out there about him, and I desperately want to know more if anyone has anything.
[quote=TheThirdPolice]Unfortunately I didn’t screenshot any of Waltz, so I’ve just gone on a tangent rereading Flint instead.
I don’t think it’s possible for the protagonist to be the Thief of Faces:
- I cannot think of any implication that the Thief is ever unaware of his identity. He seems to keep his motivations in any form.
- You meet many characters on the lookout for the Thief, and none of them suspect you. Snuffers identify you as human. The Pilgrim-Wakers think the Thief follows you, but only on one of your meetings — so that doesn’t seem like a clue.
- It seems unlikely that the Thief has a soul, let alone one unrecognized by devils.
- Going meta, this storytelling decision would repel many players.
On the other hand, it is fun to speculate:
- A handwavy explanation about the Thief possessing people rather than imitating them could remove some of the objections above.
- Alternatively, we could read willfully too much into the Thief changing its "self" as well as its shape.
- The Art of Murder ending makes more sense if you’re the Thief. (The ritual succeeds.)
- The player recognizes part of the Thief of Face ritual map in Art of Murder, for no clear reason.
- The player’s face can change in Unwell Flint. This follows a draught supposedly similar to cherty griswine… but it doesn’t seem so. The Thiefy revelations could be memories.[/quote]
I absolutely agree with the meta argument that it’s doubtful the player will have to turn out to be the thief of faces, but there is a theory my friend and I came up with a while back that the Thief could be the player. There is a process, one pursued by the Bishop and in Sunless Sea, by which a greater entity can become a lesser one. If the Thief of Faces wanted to stop hating everyone and everything, that is, if he hates what he is, one route would be to follow that process and become a human, perhaps absorbing some memories of a person in New Newgate and replacing them. Obviously the process would make him much much weaker (explaining your starting stats) but in many ways it would be the best of both worlds, hiding him from those who pursue him, allowing him to live without hating everything, but also being better than any normal human in a number of ways (such as the player’s stubborn inability to permanently die or go insane, and their incredible growth over a relatively short period of time.) I could go into more detail, but I don’t think it’s really a relevant topic to this thread, since a twist like that would have to be in a far broader piece of content.
Edit: Apologies for the double post, my previous post was written before TheThirdPolice’s post appeared.
edited by Ian Hart on 5/11/2016
[quote=Ian Hart]
There is a lot of speculation out there about him, and I desperately want to know more if anyone has anything.[/quote]
(spoilers for Sunless Sea)
The Old Man in Vienna appears in Sunless Sea; you can interact with him by travelling up the Cumean Canal and taking a train to Vienna. An additional storylet becomes available in Vienna if you’re made it past a certain point in the Ambition to travel East.
He seems to be a parallel – not directly related to, but behaving in a similar capacity – to a Judgement known as "The White" (who is also mentioned at the Chapel of Lights). Just as the Old Man is a spymaster for the Great Game, the White is a spymaster among the Judgements. The Old Man dispatched the Waltzing Duke to Fallen London, while the White dispatched a judgement (Salt) through the Avid Horizon and into the Neath (presumably to investigate the Bazaar’s activities). Both the Duke and Salt have ended up injured by their experiences in the Neath.
You failed a Google challenge! Persuasive is decreasing…
Other misc. unhelpful thoughts:
I doubt that the Strauss was involved in spycraft, so if there is an inspiration for the Old Man it probably has to do with Vienna’s 19th century history of spycraft — which I know nothing about.
I did not realize Woods in Winter was a Longfellow poem. Unless I’m missing something, this is just a thematic connection at most.
Ooh… someone may have killed the Austrian Crown Prince in the Viennese Woods. It’s the exact sort of thing I’d look for as the Duke’s ‘trial to prove himself’, except 1889 is way too late. At best this is the "It happened after", and it’s probably not relevant at all.
Tales from the Vienna Woods was later turned into a play and films. Doesn’t seem too relevant though, except, again, thematically.
Believe it or not I’m actually not including the even less likely finds. :P
Perhaps more useful to stay within the Fallen London world. It sounds like the Old Man is testing many people (presumably young spies), and perhaps sending them to the Neath to worm their way to the vaults of the Bazaar, or to gather secrets such as the Duke found. Do we have any guesses for other agents of the Old Man (the Clathermonts?), or — since we’ve been spiralling down this well — evidence that the protagonist is an unwitting agent itself?
EDIT: As a side note, I’m voting for "the daughter is not an agent." As others have remarked, it requires too much handwaving to justify some of the endings, especially when she lets the player walk away with the secret.
edited by TheThirdPolice on 5/11/2016
It’s quite possible. I think the key connection Cash tweeted about may indeed be the ‘Woods in Winter’ card found in the Nadir. The text for the different storylets on the card suggest to me that the player was sent/manipulated into travelling to London, at the behest of the Old Man.
For example, the minor text differences between the two versions of ‘The Dance Goes On’ storylet on this card (one available if you’ve reached Entwined in the Intrigues of the Clathermont Family 30, one if you haven’t) suggest that a) the woman you’re talking to is Millicent Clathermont, a.k.a. The Lady in Lilac, and b) You received some sort of aid from her regarding your Ambition, aid which was subsequently forgotten thanks to Lilac’s irrigomancy.
Furthermore, the Old Man wants, more than anything, to know the secrets of the Bazaar, as seen on the ‘Fortune’s Page’ storylet on the Woods in Winter card. Lilac is privy to some of these secrets, so it makes sense that she is somehow involved with the Old Man.
So perhaps the Old Man orchestrated the player being sent down to the Neath by manipulating their Ambition, with the player either unaware of it or having forgotten it due to irrigo? This would mean that the player’s beginnings might be eerily similar to those of the Duke…
It’s quite possible. I think the key connection Cash tweeted about may indeed be the ‘Woods in Winter’ card found in the Nadir. The text for the different storylets on the card suggest to me that the player was sent/manipulated into travelling to London, at the behest of the Old Man.
For example, the minor text differences between the two versions of ‘The Dance Goes On’ storylet on this card (one available if you’ve reached Entwined in the Intrigues of the Clathermont Family 30, one if you haven’t) suggest that a) the woman you’re talking to is Millicent Clathermont, a.k.a. The Lady in Lilac, and b) You received some sort of aid from her regarding your Ambition, aid which was subsequently forgotten thanks to Lilac’s irrigomancy.
Furthermore, the Old Man wants, more than anything, to know the secrets of the Bazaar, as seen on the ‘Fortune’s Page’ storylet on the Woods in Winter card. Lilac is privy to some of these secrets, so it makes sense that she is somehow involved with the Old Man.
So perhaps the Old Man orchestrated the player being sent down to the Neath by manipulating their Ambition, with the player either unaware of it or having forgotten it due to irrigo? This would mean that the player’s beginnings might be eerily similar to those of the Duke…[/quote]
The player’s presence in the Neath is certainly a result of manipulation, though at least in the case of Ambition Nemesis, it’s by the hand of a higher power than the Old Man.
As far as the daughter, here is the ending you are referring to. http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Antifinity?fromEchoId=7680603
It strikes me as perfectly in character for a spy who is aware she failed in reaching her goal. In fact, the way she reacts seems to only make sense if she was previously aware of the presence of the secret. If she were truly innocent she should be outraged at your "failure" or she should arrange to pay you for your "success". Instead, she clearly knows that you saw through her deception and claimed the real prize of the entire affair.
You could argue that she would then try to retrieve it from you, but that would be a futile gesture, since a significant part of the secret’s value was in no one else knowing it (which is why the Duke had to erase his own memory of it) and of course because the player is a far more dangerous individual than she is.
That doesn’t limit us to only one manipulator. Maybe the old man pulled some strings and made sure the player was chosen. Maybe he helped make sure you made it to the neath or would be able to escape New Newgate.
edited by suinicide on 5/11/2016