Dream Qualities / The Waste Land

Fallen London
1

Hi everyone, sorry if this has already been asked before, but can anyone tell me what the current speculation is on why the names of the dream qualities are the chapter titles of T.S. Eliot’s ‘The Waste Land’?

Rap Genius basically says that the poem is about the vegetation deity whose death and reincarnation defines the fertility cycle (the seasons, basically) while Wikipedia ties the poem to the story of the Fisher King (similar in certain mythological regards, but quite different in others).

I believe that some people say it may be related to the story of Mr Eaten, but I’m not masochistic enough to try and find his name, even if I could, and finding Mr Eaten lore isn’t easy - either from the game, the wikis or the forums.

Is Mr Eaten a fertility figure? Is he a parallel to the Fisher King? Are the two completely unrelated? Does Alexis just likes TS Eliot?

2

The Fisher Kings are an Urchin gang. For whatever that’s worth.

I never made the connection to the Waste Land. Salt Weasels are from the Pale Wastes. Which may be a non-sequitur, I don’t really know.

I appreciate the observation. The lore, it is deep.

3

Hmm. The Fisher King is the last guardian of the Holy Grail, which keeps him alive but wounded. His wounds and suffering is mirrored in the welfare of his land - again a fertility / death and reincarnation / seasonal change motif.

I haven’t played enough of this game to guess, but they could be a homage, or they could be secret keepers of some kind or other. I know that officially they’re named Fisher Kings because they rob passers-bye with fishing lines. I don’t remember any parallels with the other urchin gangs, but I can’t remember the other gang names and so can’t be sure.

4

[quote=RandomWalker]Hmm. The Fisher King is the last guardian of the Holy Grail, which keeps him alive but wounded. His wounds and suffering is mirrored in the welfare of his land - again a fertility / death and reincarnation / seasonal change motif.

I haven’t played enough of this game to guess, but they could be a homage, or they could be secret keepers of some kind or other. I know that officially they’re named Fisher Kings because they rob passers-bye with fishing lines. I don’t remember any parallels with the other urchin gangs, but I can’t remember the other gang names and so can’t be sure.[/quote]

[li]
And to join the Fisher Kings, you have to ‘bear the scar of an old wound that never fully healed’ – I’d never gotten that reference before.

5

[quote=theodor_gylden][quote=RandomWalker]Hmm. The Fisher King is the last guardian of the Holy Grail, which keeps him alive but wounded. His wounds and suffering is mirrored in the welfare of his land - again a fertility / death and reincarnation / seasonal change motif.

I haven’t played enough of this game to guess, but they could be a homage, or they could be secret keepers of some kind or other. I know that officially they’re named Fisher Kings because they rob passers-bye with fishing lines. I don’t remember any parallels with the other urchin gangs, but I can’t remember the other gang names and so can’t be sure.[/quote]

[li]
And to join the Fisher Kings, you have to ‘bear the scar of an old wound that never fully healed’ – I’d never gotten that reference before.[/quote]

[/li][li]Good catch! I get the feeling the fishing line gag was reverse-engineered to fit the name, versus the other way around.[/li][li]

6

Well, we’re all being kept alive by magical means - especially the Tomb-Colonists, who are as wounded as any king. Except, perhaps, the King with a Hundred Hearts, whose welfare dictates that of his land and his people very directly indeed.

7

Off the top of my head, I know there’s one gang called the Noughts and one called the Crosses, who are constantly at war.

I have a sneaking suspicion most of the Urchin gangs we’ll learn about will be named in reference to SOMETHING. How significant these references are remains to be seen.

8

The Noughts, the Crosses, the Fisher Kings, the Knotted Sock, the Regiment. There might be others, but those are the ones I could remember reference to!

9

Off the top of my head, I know there’s one gang called the Noughts and one called the Crosses, who are constantly at war.

I have a sneaking suspicion most of the Urchin gangs we’ll learn about will be named in reference to SOMETHING. How significant these references are remains to be seen.[/quote]

[li]
Noughts and Crosses constantly at war is the definition of Tic Tac Toe, but not sure if there is any meaning here or if it’s just for fun.

10

Over, they say, the corners of Wick Street and Hobbe Lane, and Alley Alley and Blue Ghost Street. Do you suppose a map of their territory might look a little something like this?

11

As each generation of urchins grows beyond the limitations of the gang, the knowledge of the Noughts’ and the Crosses’ ancient traditions grows fainter, and their famous debates - over Who Went First and Whose Go It Is - become bitterer and more violent. It is doubtful now that it will ever be settled which group is rightfully entitled to the row of houses behind Hobbe Lane and Blue Ghost Street.

12

Nice catch! Notably, “Is Someone There?” doesn’t have a dream. Is it, then, a chief dream amongst dreams? Given what it deals with, I would not be surprised…

13

I don’t know how relevant this is, but I was just browsing the Wikipedia page on Mythopoeia*, when I noticed this sentence:

&quotThe repeated motifs of Jorge Luis Borges’s fictional works (mirrors, labyrinths, tigers, etc.) tantalizingly hint at a deeper underlying mythos and yet stealthily hold back from any overt presentation of it.&quot

I actually did a double-take when I saw it, and had to check the page just to make sure I was reading what I thought I was. Any thoughts on this being a direct inspiration?

*As one does when one is an independent seeker of knowledge, and also intensely peculiar.

14

[quote=Alexander Feld]&quotThe repeated motifs of Jorge Luis Borges’s fictional works…&quot

Any thoughts on this being a direct inspiration?[/quote]I don’t think Borges references come much clearer than a Labyrinth of Tigers full ofsinister caged creatures from behind the mirrors.I don’t think the dream sequences are much influenced by Borges, though, and certainly not the ones which take their names from The Waste Land. Is Someone There has some overlap with its mirrors and, especially, its doppelgangers. But its narrative arc – beginning with minor rebellions by the player’s reflection and progressing through the player’s gradual subordination until their roles are reversed – is so strongly motivated by internal features of the setting that it doesn’t feel like a shout-out to me.

15

[quote=Flyte][quote=Alexander Feld]&quotThe repeated motifs of Jorge Luis Borges’s fictional works…&quot

Any thoughts on this being a direct inspiration?[/quote]I don’t think Borges references come much clearer than a Labyrinth of Tigers full ofsinister caged creatures from behind the mirrors.I don’t think the dream sequences are much influenced by Borges, though, and certainly not the ones which take their names from The Waste Land. Is Someone There has some overlap with its mirrors and, especially, its doppelgangers. But its narrative arc – beginning with minor rebellions by the player’s reflection and progressing through the player’s gradual subordination until their roles are reversed – is so strongly motivated by internal features of the setting that it doesn’t feel like a shout-out to me.[/quote]

I’m not familiar with Borges’s entire oeuvre, but I have a great fondness for The Book of Imaginary Beings. There’s an entry on the Fauna of Mirrors in it.

[quote=Fauna of Mirrors]The Fish is a shifting and shining creature that nobody has ever caught but that many say they have glimpsed in the depths of mirrors. According to Herbert Allen Giles, belief in the Fish is part of a larger myth that goes back to the times of the Yellow Emperor. In those days the world of mirrors and the world of men were not, as they are now, cut off from each other. They were, besides, quite different; neither beings nor colors nor shapes were the same. Both kingdoms lived in harmony; you could come and go through mirrors.

One night the mirror people invaded the earth. Their power was great, but at the end of bloody warfare the magic arts of the Yellow Emperor prevailed. He repulsed the invaders, imprisoned them in their mirrors, and forced on them the task of repeating, as though in a kind of dream, all the actions of men. He stripped them of their power and of their forms and reduced them to mere reflections. Nonetheless, a day will come when the spell will be shaken off. The first to awaken will be the Fish.

Deep in the mirror we will perceive a very faint line and the color of this line will be like no other color. Later on, other shapes will begin to stir. Little by little they will differ from us; little by little they will not imitate us. They will break through the barriers of glass or metal. Side by side with these mirror creatures, the creatures of water will join the battle. And this time, they will not be defeated.

In Yunnan they do not speak of the Fish but of the Tiger of the Mirror. Others believe that in advance of the invasion we will hear from the depths of mirrors the clatter of weapons.[/quote]

When I first read it, the only connection I saw was the idea of a world-behind-the-mirror. Now I can’t help but think of the fatelocked Gallery (or Prison) of Serpents.[li]
edited by theodor_gylden on 1/2/2014

16

[color=009900]Wide reading … is valuable because in the process of being affected by one powerful personality after another, we cease to be dominated by any one, or by any small number.’ - TS Eliot, Points of View

The fact is that every writer creates his own precursors. His work modifies our conception of the past, as it will modify the future. In this correlation the identity or plurality of the men involved is unimportant. - JL Borges, Kafka and his Precursors

If Borges is the family ghost of cybertext, and Queneau its Baptist, we might consider Calvino its shadow - in fact, its tempter, if not its adversary. - R Stamford, The Aleph in the Mirror

Happy New Year, all.[/color]

17

[quote=Alexis Kennedy][color=009900]Wide reading … is valuable because in the process of being affected by one powerful personality after another, we cease to be dominated by any one, or by any small number.’ - TS Eliot, Points of View

The fact is that every writer creates his own precursors. His work modifies our conception of the past, as it will modify the future. In this correlation the identity or plurality of the men involved is unimportant. - JL Borges, Kafka and his Precursors

If Borges is the family ghost of cybertext, and Queneau its Baptist, we might consider Calvino its shadow - in fact, its tempter, if not its adversary. - R Stamford, The Aleph in the Mirror

Happy New Year, all.[/color][/quote]
Some nice quotes there; I think I’ll file them away for later.

Also, you appear to be lamentably lacking in green. Does this mean you’re trying to be incognito? Or does your coat merely lose its viridian luster when you are denied your steady diet of rats? You should see to that directly; the new year is no time to be misplacing your delicious verdancy, after all.

'Ware serpents, dear fellow, and may you have a happy year ahead of you, regardless of what color you might be.
edited by Alexander Feld on 1/2/2014

18

Sorry to respond to SUCH an old thread; I just wanted to chime in with my take on The Waste Land bits.

To RandomWalker: Eliot famously apologized for talking so much about the Fisher King & Arthurian legend; he said it was a bit of a red herring (much like his references to the Tarot), in that he isn’t as versed in it as some of the people studying his work. I think he’s largely just using symbols from it, because they are present in a lot of British literature, and it was a way to ground his work in a historical tradition. I think Wikipedia may have put undue stress on the Fisher King links; the main themes of the book are related to the Fisher King, but set more firmly in the early 20th century. They deal with isolation, sexual degradation, loss, and mass trauma, and seem largely inspired by intimate-less marriages and the first world war.

I suspect that Alexis uses The Waste Land because it’s such a powerful work of poetry, and it’s incredibly rich & deep. It says a lot, about a lot, and alludes to a fairly large part of the Western canon.

The Waste Land itself has the feeling of a dream–or at least of laying half asleep, listening to a mass of voices speaking & getting it all jumbled up–and I think the titles lend themselves especially well to dreams and dream states.

19

Fascinating stuff, streever, thanks. I certainly get the dreamlike quality you mention about The Waste Land, and the themes you suggest certainly seem to make sense.