but I’m not particularly “invested in optimization” and that’s part of why I don’t like the change. I tolerate the gameplay to get to the words and this will focus me to think more about the gameplay,
Okay, cool, glad to see this discussion happening. Before the thread gets locked, let me add my two cents.
I think that this was a very poor way of telling the community about this. No lead up was problematic in its own, but the way the update was worded will no doubt leave a sour taste in many people’s mouths. Already I’ve seen backlash to the wording, and people canceling their subscriptions over this stuff. I think that saying it in this way was a big mistake, and has left a number of people feeling, wrongly, that the devs don’t care about the fourm / reddit/discord users opinions on things.
Ultimately, not the best way to handle it guys.
OK, so what’s the intended experience for doing a heist, now?
I’m about to do a heist. I was playing on my phone. …but before starting, I vaguely remember there’s some Dreaded challenge in heists, and mostly shadowy challenges.
Before, I would have just started playing the heist, and put on my Dreaded stuff when I got to it. Now, I couldn’t continue because I needed to go somewhere and look up online exactly what’s the minimum level of Dreaded that I need somewhere in the heist, and what are the various Shadowy levels I need, before I can make my outfit and go start it.
Is that REALLY the intended experience???
edited by Amalgamate on 7/31/2020
Intended experience is that you are going into Nadir, half of the chechs are Persuasive, half are Watchful and you can choose to suck much at one of them or moderately at both. Enjoy.
BiS items are bad. Thats why need new lineups of BiS items for double stat situations! Like this devil jacket in Jericho for 1000 hinterland scrips.
sarcasm
edited by Waterpls on 7/31/2020
[quote=Flyte][color=rgb(194, 178, 128)]
Second, we think the long term benefits of these restrictions are not yet obvious, because we can’t overhaul all of Fallen London to take advantage of the new gameplay possibilities with our limited resources.[/color][/quote]
So you openly admit that making these changes work with the full 10 years of old content is near impossible and are still pushing it forward anyway?
(How are we even supposed to reach the endgame if the content we need to get there doesn’t work?)
Why in God’s name are you so willing to break the vast majority of the game for such a relatively piddling change? I genuinely cannot understand how this is so important to you guys that you are willing to uproot the game and fracture the playerbase and create enormously more work for yourselves for it.
Even if you did devote the time and manpower to converting the entire game, WHAT is the point of it? How is a fiddly annoying outfit mechanic it worth that expenditure? What makes you believe that people are attracted to this game by equipment fiddling?
edited by Kaleestraza on 7/31/2020
I just… Can’t believe FailBetter games is stooping to the same “everyone objecting is invalid because we assume there’s some nebulous silent majority” PR lawyer rhetoric and lack of willingness to genuinely listen to feedback that finally made me quit World of Warcraft.
Being comparable to Blizzard Entertainment is just…
One of the silent players:
I recently came back to FL for the ending of the ambitions. After hiatus of a year and a half or so. Past EF, did the last step as a Seeker just to turn back, paramount person (the second to declare on forum, actualy). I find this change, as many wrote - reducing the fun. Actions sinker. Wiki addictive. Annoying. Makes me, frankly, want to take another hiatus. That big of a downer…
I really thought, after so much negative feedback, that this good intentioned new version will be taken a step back. To keep it for several more weeks (!) is discouraging and I can’t understand the reason behind it. Please reconsider - downgrade that version back one step and take your time to evaluate how to implement. Not the other way around (taking time to evaluate while keeping this change).
I don’t think I can handle few more days with this change… (Railroad board meeting today was nightmarish. Don’t want to even think about my lab or parabula).
Thank you for your time.
Ophir
How can they even claim to know most players love it if they’ve done nothing to collect that positive feedback?
Just my closing thoughts on the issue. I read the statement by Flyte on behalf of the developers. Here are my thoughts:
Normally, when a product team is working on a new product or making drastic changes to an existing product, there would be some customer surveying at a minimum, along with user interviews, customer profiles, and methods of direct feedback (with this forum being that, though not focused and directed).
The folks at Failbetter are likely familiar with Steve Blank’s Customer Development Model, in which you do customer discovery - making sure you match the product to the customer’s needs, followed by their desires. This is more detailed in Alexander Osterwalder’s Value Proposition Mapping. Typically, marketing will also create customer experience maps of the entire experience (UX, customer service, learning curve, difficulty in using, etc.) to understand where customers perceive the value-added.
I cannot believe they did this. I think one or more people there probably are using a "faith-based assumption" in terms of believing they know what we want without evidence. Rather than doing customer discovery and customer validation through a build-measure-learn loop, they skipped it all and put all their chips on Black. Maybe this has worked for them in the past based on good intuition and allowance for quirky awkward fails that did not harm the core value of the experience. I don’t know - (all of this is just my best guess as a serial entrepreneur/consultant/Ph.D. with real experience including personal mistakes I’ve learned from) - I have never worked within their company and they are deep into the game on a daily basis. Maybe they’ve done the product feedback/customer development and I’m totally wrong. My experience from years and years of paid play may just be anecdotal, but my gut tells me that’s not the case and the posts from other players seem to back up my own experience and opinion for the most part.
Well, I hope the good folks at Failbetter get this right because I really miss playing and I absolutely love the stories, but I’ve just stepped back since the change and canceled my subscription, though with the hope of renewing it. After years of daily play, it feels strange and somewhat liberating. Haha! I certainly don’t blame the developers if I am not their target customer and locked outfit changes applied to the content will benefit them in the long-run. That’s, by every right, their call. But I hope it’s based more on evidence than assumption and instinct.
As an aside, I would offer one possible suggestion if they want to make the vast number of suboptimal items more useful:
Add specific options for actions that are linked to specific items or combinations of items.
This could add a roleplaying element - perhaps the combo of a "Snuffer’s Face" and a "Gray Morning Suit" would provide a unique disguise for a specific situation, or maybe "Regular Communication with an Incarcerate" can provide specific information otherwise unknown, or a "Pair of Irrigo Goggles" combined with "The Contrarian’s Monocrhomatic Lantern" produces a unique visual insight on an experiment.
Or maybe an "Obdurate Stallion" would decrease the Dangerous difficulty when crossing a certain terrain.
This would create incentive to gain items because even suboptimal items could have very unique and powerful functions.
After all, being able to change outfits in-between certain courses of action seems like a compromise and still not "realistic," perhaps this could make it more realistic and unique in terms of experiences.
Thank you,
FeldonSmithe
I came to the forum not expecting to find this. I’ve been playing since the change and hadn’t really noticed it except that the icon keeps flashing back and forth between locked and unlocked every time I push a button (annoying, but bearable).
Then I realized what was going on: I don’t optimize anymore. If I need a specific item for a specific challenge, I equip it–and then spend weeks doing Shadowy things while wearing my Morning outfit, or whatever, because I’m too lazy to switch back. My stats are high enough that either everything is a 100% Straightforward or it’s a 10% Impossible, and it feels like there’s nothing in-between, and items don’t budge that 10% enough to matter.
Except, of course, when it comes to the new qualities–which were just introduced, and which now make this outfit thing a brand new nightmare. Now I get it. I was one of the "silent majority" (dear God it sickens me to even type that) until I actually started playing all this interesting new content (which I adore). Now I’m annoyed.
But in my opinion, the answer isn’t locking outfits. It’s doing away with them altogether. A stat check should interrogate whether you own an item. Not whether you’re currently wearing it. There are so many items, and so many qualities now, that even playing the game before this change felt like pixel-hunting. Comparing this hat that gives me +1 Mithridacy vs this one that gives me -2 Persuasive, when the stat it changes is at 209… it’s always been the most dreadful boring part of the game. Now I don’t feel I’ll ever bother changing my items again, because it’s too big a chore.
edited by naraoia on 7/31/2020
I haven’t read this entire thread, but I’ll slighly quote what I said at the subreddit:
"sure, it’s nice that FB claims they appreciate feedback. I believe they think it’s great when people spend weeks building up hype for events, when members of the community make the wiki (which is becoming an actual part of the game. a lot of new stuff is nearly impossible to navigate without the wiki), or when we send bug-reports or freaking spelling mistakes. but when we complain about not liking something, then it’s "oh, the active parts of the community aren’t important".
do I hate this change? yes, I do. the reason I’m d___ned mad at this "answer" to all of our own complaints is that, apparently caring a lot about this game doesn’t matter to them. the "active parts of the community", or the "parts of the community that spend actual money", or the "parts of this community that want to play the game to its fullest" are now the ones that are in the wrong. because we’re not the majority.
I would have 0 problems with this post if it just said "we believe in the changes, we see you guys complaining, but we’re sticking to what we decided to do". but dismissing all of our complaints because we are not the majority? c’mon
I’ve played FL since 2013/2014, I believe. I’ve always defended FB because I’ve thought they actually cared about their players.
having my opinion dismissed because I’m not in the majority? not cool. awful, actually.
no matter what happens next, if I keep playin or not, if I spend money or not, this will always be a stain, towards Failbetter, for me.
edited by ochrasy on 7/31/2020
Exactly the same here. Playing this month’s ES, I constantly had the fear that there would be a stat check that I could have changed for, but now would get a "worse" result because I was flaunting the library back at home instead of my jar of teeth.
It’s ridiculous that they’ll try and fix some of it weeks from now - I guess I’ll just have to let my subscription lapse for a few weeks as well.
Honestly, when I saw the change and realized I couldn’t switch outfits in a storylet, my reaction was “That’s inconvenient, but eminently fair, in the way so much of Fallen London is.” It’s almost like an exploit to be able to change outfits all the time, in the middle of things. I would favor being able to change outfits in places like Heists or Parties, but at the cost of an extra action. That way you’re not punished too much if you accidentally go in wearing the wrong thing, but it’s still an incentive against outfit-swapping willy-nilly.
Let’s make things clear.
Problem number one.
They’ve their business model, they need to earn money. Totally fine with that.
I am totally fine with E. Friends having 2 bonus outfit slots too. You could just double the standard number, no problem. Likewise the second candle or increased decksize, it’s an incentive to subscribe, and it’s totally ok.
Personally, I think 20 Fate for every new Outfit Slot is very steep, because it’s a pivotal and arbitrary change, but It’s just my opinion.
The reason this is quite a cheap shot to "casual", non-paying players too, is that in the last months SEVEN new qualities have been introduced and Bizarre, Respectable and Dreaded now could not be treated just like "BDR", they have single, mutually exclusive uses, one should also take into account Anti-Stats.
It was becoming quite a click-armageddon, while before, with 4 Outfit for 4 stats + BDR was bearable (but not optimal).
Just for this reasons would be NICE to throw a few free slot for "normal" players too, since the complexity and the number of variable to keep track of CHANGED.
[b]Problem number two.
[/b]
The lock, is totally another story. I have nothing more to add that’s not already written in the comments.
[b]Problem number three.
[/b]To Failbetter: If you are unable to communicate your "long-term improvements in strategy", it’s a problem of communication. From your side.
Yes, you’re right, you could not convince me this was the right choice (against, just for example, multi-stat challenges), because you didn’t bring any argument or evidence or anything, it’s all a "trust me, now it’s hell, because we cannot adapt all the existing content, but in the future all shall be well with new content".
Basically, you asked us an act of faith.
The narrative/realistical reasons are petty, quite an insult to our intelligence.[b]
Good Things.
[/b]The sorting and filtering system if awesome, the renaming and saving are ok, the "bar" on the home screen to change would be an improvement without the locking in place.
I also have noticed you’re adding LOTS of secondary uses in storylet based on possession of particular items.
THIS is nice and is the right way to give much more spotlight and added value to item that are NOT BiS.
It’s good for us, it’s good for you, since it’s an incentive to buy fate items, my only doubt is, are they "hidden"? Because if I don’t know an option exist, I would never buy for fate a crap item (stat wise) during a season event (mutersalt, for example).
Regarding the new Watchmaker’s Daughter content, the more useful practical benefit from that card now is to take the option to visit her, and then quit for the Whispered Hints payout. It’s 450 Hints for me at this time of writing, which is a tidy 2.25 Echoes per action.
That’s the most reliable value of the card now. Unless there is going to be some use for the toys that she makes (other than to sell them for Certifiable Scraps, which can be obtained through other more reliable means that don’t involve RNG rolls), there is no good reason to attempt the sequence of rolls.
Also, I can’t check the difficulty ratings for board meeting actions so easily now. It’s going to be more difficult to discern how the factors affect the rolls to convince board members and update the wiki about them.
I have already hit a snag on one: I can’t confirm whether the difficulty rating to persuade the Dean of Xenotheology on Question to the Board 5 is really 160 or not, because my character’s Persuasive rating is well above the 100% threshold.
This is important to me, because there had been some permutations of board members and Questions where the difficulty rating as calculated through known factors don’t add up to the actual one, thus suggesting the presence of "Board Against" or "Board For" factors that actually reduce difficulty.
edited by Rostygold on 8/1/2020
I just realized that Mood items will now be riskier to use for the purpose of occasions with long stretches of being in storylets. (If you can recall, the Mood items automatically evaporate after an hour. The Hat slot becomes empty.)
I am sending an email on this.
edited by Rostygold on 8/1/2020
Has anyone found out a way to find out why you are locked into an outfit? I’m not doing anything. I’m sitting in my lodgings &I’m locked into my incognito one. But… I’m not doing anything? How do you find out why you are locked?
It’s a bug, refresh the browser. I’ve had to do it about 5 times today. No rhyme or reason as to what triggers it and it’s honestly the least annoying part of the whole thing.
It’s a bug, refresh the browser. I’ve had to do it about 5 times today. No rhyme or reason as to what triggers it and it’s honestly the least annoying part of the whole thing.[/quote]
Oh for goodness… thank you.
[quote=Kaleestraza]I just… Can’t believe FailBetter games is stooping to the same "everyone objecting is invalid because we assume there’s some nebulous silent majority" PR lawyer rhetoric and lack of willingness to genuinely listen to feedback that finally made me quit World of Warcraft.
Being comparable to Blizzard Entertainment is just…[/quote]
This by far is the most jarring thing about this whole fiasco. I’m constantly singing the praises of Failbetter and their games to friends, family, and casual acquaintances. Describing how they actually managed to make a free to play browser game that doesn’t engage in all the typical nasty freemium behavior like encouraging you to spam everyone in your contacts list for more actions. One of the things I frequently highlight is the closeness between the developers and the community.
Seeing that noxious "silent majority" PR garbage hurt. I could feel the heat coming off the burning of years of built up goodwill.