Owen Wulf
Posts: 715
1/16/2015
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I thought about adding a poll but came to the conclusion that this was a subject matter more fitted for discussion.
To begin, despite their steep initial cost and incompatibility with the Midnight Matriarch (whose stats and benefits are outclassed by the rats), the Scuttering Company is perhaps the single best use of Echoes a player can indulge and the most effective "companion" for any situation save those involving speech and art.
In the grand scheme of the Bazaar, 500 Echoes is not a lot of money. It would only take a few weeks of playing before such a sum was attainable and long before even hitting 100 on any stat. That they outclass almost every other companion is without question, and in all honesty not using them would simply be an aesthetic choice rather than a tactical one. The inability to sell their services for anything back on market is understandable given their contracted nature, but I think more negatives need to be added into the bargain than simply being unable to buy an expensive cat.
For starters, perhaps at the end of each week when Time the Healer rolls in they might deduct a fee for their mercenary services. Or maybe a rare and undiscardable card pops up where the company is attacked by rival Venge-Rat Assassins and you are caught in the middle and sustain wounds (while acquiring more Venge-Rat Corpses of course).
My point is that for such a powerful asset there should be some give and take as to whether or not you should employ them. As it stands, the Alluring Accomplice and the Ruthless Henchmen (or Heavens forbid, both at once) are more trouble because they bring along cards that clutter your deck. What do you guys think?
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A B Nile
Posts: 414
1/16/2015
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It might make more sense narratively if they were a time-limited resource. Either you pay a fixed fee to contract them for a week (100E?) or you pay your 500E up front and then they disappear after a month or something.
I don't see their superiority over other pets as a big issue though. Don't underestimate the power of aesthetic choices - didn't you make decisions that way before becoming a grind fiend? I know I did.
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Owen Wulf
Posts: 715
1/16/2015
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I suppose that is true. It just seems that a +8 to Dangerous, Watchful and Shadowy for little to no setbacks is quite a lot considering that many lower-ranking pets are either harder to get or more troublesome.
Also, I think 100 Echoes a week is way too pricey (even by my standards).
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edited by Owen Wulf on 1/16/2015
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dragonridingsorceress
Posts: 622
1/16/2015
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I would object to suddenly having to pay a fee for my Scuttering Squad.
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Sara Hysaro
Moderator
Posts: 4514
1/16/2015
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If the Scuttering Squad needed to be rehired each week I wouldn't ever bother with them. It's just one point better than other options in a more convenient package. That's not worth a constant drain on echoes.
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RandomWalker
Posts: 948
1/16/2015
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The scuttering squad aren't the best-in-class for anything. They're handy, yes, but far from being overpowered. Yes, other pets are worse and not that much cheaper, but so what?
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Estelle Knoht
Posts: 1751
1/16/2015
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I think FBG are fixing the item balance with alternative uses, it seems, given that the Urchin pets are now more of a Orphanage Fuel, and so are the Alluring Accomplices.
At the very least it is much more palpable than this. I don't have a Squad myself, but going by your line of thinking why shouldn't Penstock's Wicket be nerfed into oblivion by making lodgings bought there cost Lacre-rent each week and melt in a few months?
edited by Byron Man on 1/16/2015
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Toran
Posts: 193
1/16/2015
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Pets are so cheap, comparatively, that it's not much of a challenge after becoming POSI to have all of them if you play regularly. I don't see that the Scuttering Squad is imbalanced in that I have purchased all pets I am interested in (other than the Matriarch because of her issue with my rats). If anything, the Squad is an advantage to low-level players where 1 point of stat difference matters more.
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Owen Wulf
Posts: 715
1/16/2015
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Byron Man wrote:
I don't have a Squad myself, but going by your line of thinking why shouldn't Penstock's Wicket be nerfed into oblivion by making lodgings bought there cost Lacre-rent each week and melt in a few months?
edited by Byron Man on 1/16/2015
Lodgings are relatively balanced, and among the various tiers they are almost interchangeable. There is no reason to "nerf" them because they are relatively difficult, or at least time consuming, to acquire.
The Scuttering Squad, however, can be bought on open market for just a little over the cost of any of the higher tier weapons, clothes and hats.
And yes, the squad is a massive advantage to lower level players as Toran said. But is this good for the game? The Scuttering Squad is a recent addition to the game, and now new players have incentive to look over every other companion and just save up for the squad. When you buy the Infernal Sharpshooters Rifle or the Ratwork Watch you are expending a prodigious sum for a boost in only a single field. Naturally you would only buy such items after you get the Scuttering Squad, because it makes no sense not to.
Which lends me to my point that the Scuttering Squad's presence influences how players play the game to a larger degree than most any other item or companion.
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edited by Owen Wulf on 1/16/2015
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Gillsing
Posts: 1203
1/16/2015
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I agree that it's boring how the Scuttering Squad is more Dangerous than the Bengal Tigress, while also being more Shadowy than any other non-Fate pet, and giving such a high Watchful bonus to boot. But it hardly matters, since neither Shadowy nor Dangerous is particularly important to have at very high levels, and the rats are readily outmatched in Watchful by the Overgoat.
Giving the Scuttering Squad a less than desirable card seems like a good idea though, at least on paper. It wouldn't even need to be a menace card. Just giving it Standard frequency and mediocre rewards (~100 pence) would be enough to make those rats quite the nuisance in my book. Hmmm... I'd probably prefer a Very Infrequent menace card come to think of it.
Then again, it's easy for me to just sell my Scuttering Squad for 5 Echoes, because I got mine from the first advent calender. It would sting if I'd paid 500 Echoes for it, because I'm pretty sure I haven't received 495 Echoes' worth of resources from those extra points. (I calculated the return of investment for buying a Far Khanate Lacquered Armour, and it turned out that it would take four years of slightly higher chance of success in The Listing Tower before that investment would pay for itself. The Diamond Ring I bought for getting 100% of success for engaging in commerce at the Bazaar isn't paying for itself either, but 100% chance of success gives me peace of mind instead of "why is 99% failing 5% of the time?!")
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Owen Wulf
Posts: 715
1/16/2015
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I don't know about returns on investment (I look quite spiffy in my Khanate Armor), I just think that as other pets have baggage or downsides associated with them then it would seem reasonable to add a similar element to the Scuttering Squad to level the playing field. Truth be told I probably wouldn't fire any of my companions for such an element because I've already named and integrated them into my character's lore. Except for the monkey and urchin card, that little conflict was very annoying.
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edited by Owen Wulf on 1/16/2015
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RandomWalker
Posts: 948
1/16/2015
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Can I just vote against making changes to the game for the deliberate purpose of making it more annoying?
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Estelle Knoht
Posts: 1751
1/16/2015
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Owen Wulf wrote:
Lodgings are relatively balanced, and among the various tiers they are almost interchangeable. There is no reason to "nerf" them because they are relatively difficult, or at least time consuming, to acquire.
edited by Owen Wulf on 1/16/2015
No, I mean the method of purchasing it. Few even consider the regular way of paying an Impossible Theorem or other tier 8 items after all, because Penstock's Wicket are far more efficient, just like how the Squad outshine the rest of the pets.
Does that mean we should have the Wicket demolished, or booby-trapped so buying a lodging using the Wicket will give you qualities that spawn irritatingly useless cards?
Why don't we buff the weaker pets instead? Give the Tigress a nice card. Make the Accomplice and Henchman cards scale, so you'd have a more appealing choice: do I want to get the less potent pets for their nice cards or get a powerful pet?
Although my view might not be very accurate given that I stopped playing for quite some time before-and-after the Squad was introduced, so I have no idea how devastating it is for the FL economy to have people buy Squads instead of other things.
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Owen Wulf
Posts: 715
1/16/2015
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Byron Man wrote:
Although my view might not be very accurate given that I stopped playing for quite some time before-and-after the Squad was introduced, so I have no idea how devastating it is for the FL economy to have people buy Squads instead of other things.
I suppose buffing the lower level pets would also be nice, and certainly it would seem quite appropriate in the event the level cap was raised again.
Also, why did you stop playing? The game is still good.
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Estelle Knoht
Posts: 1751
1/16/2015
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Owen Wulf wrote:
Also, why did you stop playing? The game is still good.
I rage-quitted during the 2012 Feast because I missed the Sun and I was feeling really grumpy goat-grinding.
I returned this Christmas. I am not that crazy to stop playing a game for a year and a half and return to speculate plot and talk game mechanics 
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Estelle Knoht, a juvenile, unreliable and respectable lady.
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WormApotheote
Posts: 725
1/16/2015
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Are people buying it when they're not even POSI yet? Because it seems like it's value for early POSI players is being a bit overstated since two thirds of the tier 2 professions (...or is it tier 3? I am so unclear on the terminology there) gives a pet with +9 in two stats.
Of course once you advance past that there isn't really good options so even match it. (Rattus Faber Bandit Chief and Midnight Matriarch are both +8 for their stat, plus there's the goats, but nothing from the bazaar is even close for Shadowy)
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