EscapeZeppelin
Posts: 16
1/13/2015
|
I've been trying to understand the Zee's history better and put names to the fallen cities.
Fallen London- London
Khans Heart- Karakorum
Varchas- Angkor Wat
Anyone know what the other ones are?
|
|
|
0
link
|
Diptych
Administrator
Posts: 3493
1/14/2015
|
I've just had a moment of smacking my head at having missed a vital clue. I popped by Visage to do the usual run, and found the text describing the great face, Flourishing-of-Years, as having been built by a noble in tribute to a lady who, in an ambiguous translation, ascended, bloomed or flew away. My significant-name sense twitched and I ran a search for Flourishing-of-Years - at least according to some sources, it's one of the names of the Pharaoh Hatshepsut.
As it happens, I was listening to a podcast about Hatshepsut a couple of days ago - we don't know as much as we might about her, but she's certainly a fascinating figure. If Visage is her Neathy city, well, it's entirely possible that this monument-minded noble who was fond of his pharaoh was Senenmut, her steward and chief architect. Among other things, they're known for having built the twin obelisks of Karnak - I was wondering not too long ago why there were twin obelisks in one piece of SS story art. Senenmut's been theorised to have been Hatshepsut's lover - there's not much evidence for this (more power to 'em if they were, of course - no skin off my nose), but as a loyal minister who rose considerably in status during her reign, he'd have every reason to be dedicated to her either way.
Story-wise, there's two major issues that stand out here. One: if we're assuming that the Second City was Akhetaten/Armana, as seems thoroughly probable, well... Hatshepsut preceded Akhenaten by a good hundred years. That means that, if she was in the Neath, she didn't come there through the deal that led to the Second City's Fall. So, how? No idea. Oh, but she did claim to be the worldly incarnation of the god Amun, whose various divine portfolios included the sun... though possibly not until later; this is thoroughly not my area of expertise. In any case, there's parallels with both Akhenaten and with Varchas. The second issue is that ascending/blooming/flying away sounds awfully like the "emergence" that Tomb-Colonists experience. If present-day Tomb-Colonist practices date back to the pharaohs... well, it gives the bandages an amusing aptness.
Currently, assuming that Thebes is still where it's supposed to be and not in fact in the Neath, I'm looking into whether Hatshepsut was responsible for any sites that included a temple, a nilometer, and perhaps even a library. Medinet Habu fits the bill, but, barring the temple, I've no idea how many of those features were from her lifetime and how many were added later. Could be Elephantine - island site, sacred to Khnum, known for its cache of papyri. Or, it could be entirely fictitious. I must go back to Visage on a fresh character, and look at all the content one gets locked out of once one's played it through.
--
Sir Frederick, the Libertarian Esotericist. Lord Hubris, the Bloody Baron.
Juniper Brown, the Ill-Fated Orphan. Esther Ellis-Hall, the Fashionable Fabian.
|
|
|
+4
link
|
Bardigan
Posts: 70
1/13/2015
|
Fretling wrote:
But if they are Dravidian towers, doesn't that reinforce Varchas springing from Indian rather than southeast Asian roots?
Southeast Asia was and still is heavily influenced by the Sanskrit language and Indian civilization (Indonesia and Malaysia were largely Hindu/Buddhist before many of the kingdoms adopted Islam, many words in Malay and Indonesian have Sanskrit origins. Thailand, Cambodia and Burma/Myanmar meanwhile have preserved their Hindu-Buddhist traditions), Angkor Wat was built in the Dravidian style and was built to represent Mt. Meru (which seems to be Stone/the Mountain of Light in the FL/SS universe, as well as Qaf in Islamic and Iranian Cosmology and the same Mountain that springs the fountain of life in the Prester John mythos)...so Varchas does check out as Angkor Wat.
edited by Bardigan on 1/13/2015
|
|
|
+2
link
|
Bardigan
Posts: 70
1/13/2015
|
I was thinking of this place when I saw the Calumnies for the first time: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Blue_Hole
|
|
|
+2
link
|
Diptych
Administrator
Posts: 3493
1/13/2015
|
Fascinating! This is thoroughly outside of my field of expertise, but Angkor Wat is a convincing theory, as are Bardigan's explanations of the lore of the Elder Continent. I'd picked up the South Asian flavour of the southern Unterzee generally, and Varchas's Hindu influences... perhaps it's mere, to borrow one of my favourite expressively muddled phrases, wishful thinkment, but what we see of Varchas on the overhead map does look a lot like the front of Angkor Wat's walls, and the described layout matches (though, of course, it's not the most uncommon design.)
It's conspicuously free of the Bazaar's influence. So, how did it come to the Neath? The story told in the temple is that the Sun let its gaze fall from Varchas, and Varchas fell into darkness. That... is a singularly ambiguous myth. Is Varchas in darkness because it's in the Neath or is it in the Neath because it's in darkness? I have no idea. It does seem like a nice place to live, though - pleasantly bright, plenty of vegetarian cuisine, awareness of the danger of the Fingerkings... you could do much worse!
--
Sir Frederick, the Libertarian Esotericist. Lord Hubris, the Bloody Baron.
Juniper Brown, the Ill-Fated Orphan. Esther Ellis-Hall, the Fashionable Fabian.
|
|
|
+2
link
|
Diptych
Administrator
Posts: 3493
2/24/2015
|
The pre/post-coinage clue is a red herring, sadly - the Numismatrix makes it clear that the so-called "First City Coins" are actually more modern artifacts that somehow symbolically/metaphysically represent the First City and/or some ancient form of trading or bargaining.
--
Sir Frederick, the Libertarian Esotericist. Lord Hubris, the Bloody Baron.
Juniper Brown, the Ill-Fated Orphan. Esther Ellis-Hall, the Fashionable Fabian.
|
|
|
+2
link
|
GerbilSchooler
Posts: 86
5/19/2015
|
Impossible! Tanah Chook is from the Secon... erm.. um. Nevermind...
|
|
|
+2
link
|
Bardigan
Posts: 70
1/14/2015
|
What I've found to be interesting with Failbetter's Irem (besides their choice of using the more archaic and ominous/mythic-sounding Irem spelling rather than Iram or Ubar for ostensibly the same location) is the place's motifs of snakes, rose petals and dreams.
I'm not aware of any serpent connection with the legendary Iram of the Quran or the dubiously historical Ubar of the Arabian Peninsula, but Lovecraft's Nameless City, inhabited by reptilian-beings and claimed to formerly be near the coast, was connected to Irem.
The dream-like quality of Irem of the Neath and how one can acquire parabolan-linen there gives me the impression that the FL universe's Irem was pulled into the Zee through Parabola, somewhat similar to how Leopold Raffles got pulled into the Neath through an Exile's Rose.
The massive amount of what seems like rose petals scattered throughout the structures of the Pillared Sea suggests to me that the whole city of Irem underwent what Leopold went through but on a grander scale.
The Isle of Cats and Irem also seem to share similar qualities relating to the human subconscious.
I was wondering if those terms in Varchas were based on a particular language - thank you for that! Is Agnihotri or any other of their words also taken from actual roots?
Yes: Agnihotri
The Varchasi also call your captain "Taamas".
Meg Jayanth's heritage was quite pronounced in her first SS contribution.
I also admire her decision to choose Borneo and Malacca as her inspirations for writing the Isle of Cats rather than basing it on the over-represented Caribbean and Tortuga. Even Kelantan was given a reference to in the text for one of the Catties story interaction...truly astonishing.
edited by Bardigan on 1/14/2015
|
|
|
+2
link
|
fortluna
Posts: 306
5/21/2015
|
spoilers for Aestival ending re: the Presbyterate - [spoiler] they're explicitly said to predate even Bazaar shenaniganry in the Neath, so I don't suppose there's a recent civilization they're derived from.
|
|
|
+1
link
|
IgnatuStone
Posts: 208
5/26/2015
|
Check out this snippet from Fallen London
What are the Tomb-Colonies like?
More Mictlan than Milan. Travellers do go to see the sights, but the sights are mostly dark half-deserted plazas and unfriendly people wrapped in bandages. They have some good churches though.
Mictlan is the Aztec underworld. I'm fairly certain that the Tomb Colonies are the remnant of the Third City.
--
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Ignatus~Stone
|
|
|
+1
link
|
ThePolishSausage
Posts: 12
2/24/2015
|
An observation: I was playing earlier and mucking about with Port Carnelian's option to create an intelligence network. One of the options to improve your network is to spend a Searing Engima on the Prince. This storylet allows your captain to spew veiled truths at the Prince, some of which are immensely interesting. The most interesting is that "satraps" are mentioned repeatedly. For those that don't know, satraps refer to ancient Persia. To my understanding, satraps were basically local governors or councils or whatever, which would act as agents or rulers as an extension to the Persian main government (please correct me if I'm wrong).
That said, it would seem that there's some sort of connection between Persia and the tigers of the Carnelian Coast. I skimmed the thread and did a few searches and couldn't find any mention of satraps or Persia, so apologizes if this was already mentioned, but I thought it interesting. Likewise, I'm not heavily read up on Fallen London lore, and don't know if this has already been discounted.
Regardless, this is a really fun thread. Thanks for the interesting read.
|
|
|
+1
link
|
IgnatuStone
Posts: 208
5/19/2015
|
There's a location outside of Venderbight called Tanah Chook. Its looks exactly like a Mesoamerican temple that would be found in the third city.
--
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Ignatus~Stone
|
|
|
+1
link
|
Fretling
Posts: 529
1/13/2015
|
I'm not best informed about FL lore, but isn't it possible that there's some difference between cities that fell because of the Masters or the Bazaar or what-have-you and cities that fell for other reasons, such as the Varchaasi explanation of their own fall as being due to the displeasure of Mihir?
|
|
|
+1
link
|
nameless
Posts: 237
1/13/2015
|
Frensus wrote:
I wonder, could the hole in the roof of the Neath over Aestival be where the First City was pulled from the ground? The Cumaean Canal verifies that the Bazaar is below Italy, so if the hole is somewhere in Syria (perhaps Tell Brak, but there is still some discussion over that), it would line up quite nicely...
No, the hole was made when Iron and Misery Co. were testing the Memento Mori on the island.
--
The only god of the zee is nameless.
|
|
|
+1
link
|
Bardigan
Posts: 70
1/14/2015
|
Just to give a little add-on to EZ's post, the aforementioned "black mirrors" of the Third City probably relate to the obsidian mirrors of the Aztecs, like the one allegedly owned by English occultist John Dee, claimed to have originated from the Mexica when the Spaniards conquered and pilfered Mesoamerica. Another clue that supports the Mesoamerican-Third City claim.
On the subject of the First City, a certain love affair in FL does seem to be oddly reminiscent of the Gilgamesh-Enkidu relationship...
edited by Bardigan on 1/14/2015
|
|
|
+1
link
|
Impish Axile
Posts: 50
2/11/2015
|
Also keep in mind the dates. Angkor Wat was built (and first sacked) in the 1100s CE - definitely AFTER the third city fell (There are lots of theories, but iirc all agree the third city fell sometime in the 800s or 900s CE, and from a different continent entirely)
Varchas also obviously isn't the Fourth City - again, all theories agree this was a Mongolian city that fell in the mid 1300s (by which point Angkor Wat was predominantly Buddhist rather than Hindu).
Sure, many parts of the lore are unclear, come from unreliable narrators, etc, but "London is the fifth of seven cities (stolen by the Masters for the Bazaar)" is so firmly entrenched in so much of the lore from so many sources that it's not really one of them.
Even if Varchas really is supposed to BE an Angkor Wat fallen to the Neath rather than a Neathy city from the same culture, it absolutely isn't one of the cities taken by the Masters and dropped on the Bazaar, and fell to the Neath some other way.
|
|
|
+1
link
|
Nocculi
Posts: 22
2/11/2015
|
Thoughts:
- The Fourth City is pretty explicitly Karakorum, since its fall is what The Silver Tree is all about.
- I strongly suspect that Kingeater's Castle is a remnant of the Third City. Why? That's a good question.*
- It seems entirely plausible that bits of Fallen Cities could be spread around the Neath, rather than all in one place! Fallen London gives the definite sense that all the Fallen Cities were sort of plopped directly on top of each other, but given how much the Neath rearranges itself I could totally see bits drifting all over if they've been down there long enough.
I'd posit this as the source of our "too many cities" problem! We're seeing bits of stuff in multiple places.
- There's definitely a lot of room for new cultures to grow up in the Neath! We can already see the profound effect on London after only thirty years, so it makes perfect sense to me that places like Varchas developed a lot of their culture and mythology once they were already down here, rather than bringing most of it with them from above.
Especially since they're clearly reacting very strongly to particularly Neathy phenomena.
* Not a wise one.
|
|
|
+1
link
|
tofudragon7
Posts: 19
2/24/2015
|
Okay! Going to throw a few things out here:
1. Irem is mentioned in the Quran as a lost city of Arabia. If one city can find its way below without the Bazaar stealing it, I see no reason why Varchas can't as well.
2. The Second City CANNOT POSSIBLY be Amarna. We had a discussion on this several years ago—Amarna was abandoned around 1300 BCE, 700 years before the invention of silver coins, and thus it would have to predate the First City, which makes no sense. However, Hatshepsut did build a few statues of herself and it's quite likely that one of those statues was brought below with whatever the Second City was.
3. First City Coins are traditionally traded in stacks of 30. This is a tradition very strongly tied to Judeo-Christian imagery (both old and new testaments), usually related to a betrayal or sale into slavery, both themes that may relate to whatever the first city's price was. The First City "was young when Babylon fell," placing it likely outside of Mesopotamia, but it may be somewhere in Judea/Galilee.
|
|
|
+1
link
|