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UPCOMING QUIRK CHANGES Messages in this topic - RSS

Chris Gardiner
Chris Gardiner
Administrator
Posts: 540

10/22/2014
Hi folks!


Quirks are the qualities in Fallen London like Magnanimous, Ruthless, and Hedonist which assess your character's personality. We're going to be making some changes to how they work, and wanted to lay the details out for you. We plan to make quirks more relevant and accessible; and to have Fallen London respond to them more often.


Quirks are great at:


1) Acknowledging your character's choices
2) Building up a nuanced picture of your character over prolonged play


However, we have three current issues with them. Brace for bullet points!


1) The caps on quirks have changed over Fallen London's lifespan. Newer players are very unlikely to have quirks higher than 10; more established players can have them in the hundreds.


2) Because of this, any quirk requirement tends to be inaccessible to some players but trivial to others. This means we avoid using them.


3) Increasing quirks isn't as meaningful a choice as it could be. 'At the moment, most players end up with a moderate amount of every quirk. We think it would be more interesting if your characters' quirks were a roleplaying choice -- so you could have four to six you favoured, but not the lot.


We'll be implementing three changes to address this:


1) Quirk increases will come in three bands. Easily accessible, repeatable content can increase them to 5. Less common content (like opportunity cards or the end of content strands like archaeological expeditions) can increase them to 10. One-off content (like Ambitions) or more risky content (like a laudanum habit) will allow them to rise as high as 15.


2) An increase in one quirk will tend to be coupled with a decrease in another. While some quirks will be reliably opposed (austere and hedonist, for example) most quirk changes will be situational. Sometimes increasing Steadfast will be at the cost of Subtle, other times it might reduce Ruthless.


3) Quirks will play more of a role in content. They'll act as keys to unlock new branches with alternate costs, rewards or outcomes. You may have seen some experiments with this approach in the recent Bag a Legend update. Minor branches will unlock with a quirk of 4, significant ones with a quirk of 8, and very rare exceptional branches with a quirk of 12. You won't often spend quirks. If you've worked to get a high quirk we want you to enjoy the benefits of it.


The first of these approaches will be implemented soon. Numbers two and three will be an ongoing process that we incorporate into new content and older content as we revisit it.


We will not be resetting everyone's quirks! If you've taken pride in increasing your Hedonist quality to Bacchanalian levels, fear not! Over time, high quirks are likely to trend downwards (although you'll be able to maintain your preferred quirks with careful play) but we're not going to snatch them away from you.







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Rackenhammer
Rackenhammer
Posts: 354

10/22/2014
Hm, I am liking these proposed changes very much! Being able to cultivate only a few well-chosen quirks rather than have them all at low levels would very much act to sharpen my character focus.

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Owen Wulf
Owen Wulf
Posts: 750

10/22/2014
Always nice to see new things being introduced into the game.

Off-topic Question: any news on Halloween festivities for Fallen London this year?

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MidnightVoyager
MidnightVoyager
Posts: 921

10/22/2014
For those of us who have already capped every one-time story, will we be able to take advantage of this? I burned quirks pretty hard on my failed Noman.

--
Midnight Voyager - A blood-cousin to predators. Collector of beasts. Affably mad.
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Gillsing
Gillsing
Posts: 1207

10/22/2014
Chris Gardiner wrote:
One-off content (like Ambitions) or more risky content (like a laudanum habit) will allow them to rise as high as 15.
So players who foolishly go after such one-off content before they've maxed out their preferred quirks will get those rare capped-at-15 increases before they actually matter? No badges that say "You may increase this quirk to 15"?

And the cap at 5, is that the usual "up to 6" where we get +1 CP until the quirk is above 5? If the increase is capped at 5, the cap for the actual quirk is still at 6.
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MidnightVoyager
MidnightVoyager
Posts: 921

10/22/2014
Gillsing wrote:
Chris Gardiner wrote:
One-off content (like Ambitions) or more risky content (like a laudanum habit) will allow them to rise as high as 15.
So players who foolishly go after such one-off content before they've maxed out their preferred quirks will get those rare capped-at-15 increases before they actually matter? No badges that say "You may increase this quirk to 15"?

And the cap at 5, is that the usual "up to 6" where we get +1 CP until the quirk is above 5? If the increase is capped at 5, the cap for the actual quirk is still at 6.

Yeah, that seems like a good idea. I took particularly charitable options that cost QUITE a bit in the recent Bag a Legend update.

--
Midnight Voyager - A blood-cousin to predators. Collector of beasts. Affably mad.
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Sara Hysaro
Sara Hysaro
Moderator
Posts: 4514

10/22/2014
And now I have to figure out which quirks work best for my character. Hmm. At least they'll be more relevant, and it shouldn't be too difficult to pick some out.

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Gillsing
Gillsing
Posts: 1207

10/22/2014
Gillsing wrote:
And the cap at 5, is that the usual "up to 6" where we get +1 CP until the quirk is above 5? If the increase is capped at 5, the cap for the actual quirk is still at 6.
"Daring hasn't changed, because it's higher than 4"

So that's that taken care of. Now I guess everyone has 6 CPs in a lot of quirks that they might want to save, since they're apparently not going to be that easy to get back once they're gone.
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thedeadlymoose
thedeadlymoose
Posts: 217

10/23/2014
I like this change! I think quirks are really cool and it will be neat to see them become more meaningful to your character. Presently, my super hedonistic-in-theory character is apparently very Austere because, well, Hedonist was so useful to cash in. Oops.

Despite how long this post is going to be -- and full of perhaps misplaced concerns -- I think this seems pretty excellent.

First, a small issue: presently, the net effect of the quirk decreases on a number of super repetitive/common and pretty useless cards has mainly been to make these cards even more useless. >_>; But this is almost certainly a circumstantial issue. All shall be well, I'm sure.

Gillsing wrote:
Chris Gardiner wrote:
One-off content (like Ambitions) or more risky content (like a laudanum habit) will allow them to rise as high as 15.
So players who foolishly go after such one-off content before they've maxed out their preferred quirks will get those rare capped-at-15 increases before they actually matter? No badges that say "You may increase this quirk to 15"?


MidnightVoyager wrote:
For those of us who have already capped every one-time story, will we be able to take advantage of this? I burned quirks pretty hard on my failed Noman.


I share these questions.

This is a sort of unintended consequence that I've seen before in some RPG and RPG-like games, where there are huge unintentional mechanical benefits to simply not playing significant content until an often theoretical later date, with zero story justification whatsoever. Which is a shame.

I'll reiterate a suggestion: I suggest that there be options that allow content-capped players a way to increase their favored quirks (while lowering opposed quirks) to a high level, in exchange for a significant amount of actions, resources, or both.

Certain traits, such as Scholar of the Correspondence, already work this way. Getting SotC to 7 requires a lot of terribly-dangerous Seeking Curious in the higher-level Forgotten Quarter; increasing it from 7 to 10 is best accomplished by creating an absurd number of dangerous & expensive symphonies in the higher-level Empress' Court at 24-27 actions each, more like 60-70 actions each for a lower-level character who needs to reduce Scandal. Hell, some quirks are already a bit like this; albeit inconsistently.

Although, perhaps this is already what you had in mind? (re: the example of the laudanum habit)

This generally negates the motivation to avoid one-time storylets until you've hit X cap, except for players really overly concerned with action optimization (and that isn't really a solvable issue). But a player who just really likes playing a lot need not worry; if they miss a chance, they can make up for it later. This could also help with the recent "I just gouged my quirks at the zee festival" issue that some people have an issue with. (I'm in that... "boat". I may, er, have gone fishing way too much and way too enthusiastically.)

I'm just worried about semi-permanently missing out of content because I already played X Y and Z important storylines which were one-time and the only chances to increase B quirk to A level, except for maybe the occasional new content, which I then have to spoil and play in a game-y way if I want to not miss one of the only chances evarrrr to get B quirk again. That's a butterfly effect with pretty large potential, there.
edited by thedeadlymoose on 10/23/2014

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Snowskeeper
Snowskeeper
Posts: 575

10/23/2014
I'd say Ruthless and Steadfast are complimentary quirks, not opposed. It's rather difficult to be Ruthless if you're wavering every time you come to a challenge, and it's even harder to be Steadfast if you aren't willing to do certain things for your beliefs.

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Ben
Ben
Posts: 657

10/23/2014
If you gave me a chance to cash in ALL of my quirk, but also let me reset my one time only content so I would have a fair chance at getting out of the low level cap, I'd take it.

I'd even trade in all of my quirks, for a +quirk destiny that matches my heartless trait that I have now.

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Diptych
Diptych
Administrator
Posts: 3883

10/23/2014
Some valid concerns being raised, but I don't think those pitfalls would be too hard to avoid - especially if those rare/high-risk options set your Quirk to a certain level, rather than simply raising it by X points.

Snowskeeper wrote:
I'd say Ruthless and Steadfast are complimentary quirks, not opposed. It's rather difficult to be Ruthless if you're wavering every time you come to a challenge, and it's even harder to be Steadfast if you aren't willing to do certain things for your beliefs.


Oh, it's easy enough to construct scenarios where they're one or the other. I daresay the Ruthless/Steadfast dichotomy was merely offered as an example of one of many possible choices.

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A B Nile
A B Nile
Posts: 414

10/23/2014
Chris Gardiner wrote:

3) Quirks will play more of a role in content. They'll act as keys to unlock new branches with alternate costs, rewards or outcomes. You may have seen some experiments with this approach in the recent Bag a Legend update. Minor branches will unlock with a quirk of 4, significant ones with a quirk of 8, and very rare exceptional branches with a quirk of 12. You won't often spend quirks. If you've worked to get a high quirk we want you to enjoy the benefits of it.



In general, I like the sound of the Quirk updated. Point 3) does cause slight concern though; unless I am misreading, it sounds as though Quirk requirements might lock one out of some story choices altogether, and more frequently than as things currently stand.

It seems to me that in the majority of stories at the moment, one can explore every branch (or at least most of them) if one is willing to put in the time grinding resources/connections etc. There are of course some one-off choices, but those are generally not resource-locked, or at any rate do not have high requirements. In other words, there are occasions where we only get to choose one branch, but we have a wide choice from all available branches.

I would be sad if things were changed so that effectively we were restricted to one choice only a lot more often than we are now. It sounds as though raising Quirks to high levels will be more difficult than it currently is, and raising opposing Quirks to high levels will be more difficult still.

Of course, "more of a role" doesn't necessarily mean "a major role", and I'm more than happy to reserve judgment until we see how things pan out, but this does ring some alarm bells for me. Perhaps a small hand-held bell rather than a fire alarm, but still...

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Chris Gardiner
Chris Gardiner
Administrator
Posts: 540

10/23/2014
Some responses!

any news on Halloween festivities for Fallen London this year?

Working on it right now! Expect all the content from previous years, plus some new surprises. What? What's that Scowling Flint Idol doing on my desk? Nothing at all. Ignore it. Here, I will cover it with a tea-towel.


I'd say Ruthless and Steadfast are complimentary quirks, not opposed.

They certainly can be! It all depends on the details of the fiction - this is one of the most fun things about quirks.

For those of us who have already capped every one-time story, will we be able to take advantage of this?

So players who foolishly go after such one-off content before they've maxed out their preferred quirks will get those rare capped-at-15 increases before they actually matter?

I'll bring forth one small brick from my COLOSSAL WALL OF TEXT for elaboration: "One-off content (like Ambitions) or more risky content (like a laudanum habit) will allow them to rise as high as 15."


One-off content won't be the only way to increase your quirks past 10. One-off content is where we have dramatic, character-defining decisions, so the fiction is a better fit for more drastic quirk changes. There will be other ways to increase your quirks to the top tier, but they will all have strong fictional justification.


(It's worth mentioning that higher-tier quirk changes also grant more change points of quirks. So you'll feel a benefit from them even if you aren't at the cap.)


A point that might allay some very reasonable concerns
We don't intend to hide piles of mega-sexy lore behind high-quirk branches. They won't be vital reward-grinding options. The quirk-unlocked branches represent words of your deeds getting about, and how that affects peoples' response to you. They're about about respecting your choices.


The key word there is "choice". There is a conflict between completionism and consequence. Fallen London is forgiving about letting players hoover up lore. Not only do we often provide ways to repeat or re-access content, but we put a particular piece of lore in multiple places.


There will always be a very small minority of cases where a choice will unlock one piece of content and close off another. Which ambition you chose, for example. Or which destiny or profession you chose. Some choices need consequence. But when quirks do this, the consequences won't be drastic. Quirks are great, but they're one string to Fallen London's fiddle, not the main focus of play.


Quirks are a way for the game to say "You've consistently chosen an Austere path - here is fiction that recognises that." Not "Only those with Austere 12 are allowed to learn the identities of the Calendar Council! Go away!"


Very few branches will require a quirk at 12. Quirks above 10 will mostly be about bragging rights. My current thinking is that a good place for those occasional 12+ branches would be in seasonal content, so if you miss them one time they'll be around again next year.



A note about the Iron Republic
The Iron Republic contains two Nex-locked branches that grant significant boosts to groups of quirks. To fit with the new model, thy won't be able to increase Quirks above 10. We won't be adding commensurate quirk reductions to them, though - they'll remain pure increases.
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Diptych
Diptych
Administrator
Posts: 3883

10/23/2014
So, pretty much like those parts of the Functionary's story that weren't tied to secret story branches? The bits like "if you're Quirk X, you'll do it in a Quirk X way; if you're Connection Y, you'll do it in a Connection Y way, otherwise you'll do it in the default way, but the practical result is the same"? Honestly, that sounds pretty good to me - like bonus delicious words and character development. I loved the Melancholy options in the Admiralty story because they're exactly how I'd react if I learned that some bureaucratic mismanagement was undoing all my friend's hard work.
edited by Sir Frederick Tanah-Chook on 10/23/2014

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Gillsing
Gillsing
Posts: 1207

10/23/2014
Chris Gardiner wrote:
It's worth mentioning that higher-tier quirk changes also grant more change points of quirks.
All the more reason to make sure one's preferred quirks are high enough to take advantage of all those precious high tier CPs. wink

It's not so much about the feeling in the moment as the feeling during the rest of the game, when one's character has a certain quirk above 10 or not. Unless of course all the quirks will get their own 'laudanum habit', which seems to be a very convenient way for a PoSI to increase Hedonist.

At least compared to The Henchman and the Accomplice, which I paid 230.40 Echoes to qualify for, and which was then changed to become worse than Playing the Game at Wilmot's End. I don't see the game balance in that, but perhaps it was to save everyone else from feeling a need to qualify for that card? (The bonuses those two provide are of course useless to me, and their individual cards are quite unprofitable when compared to other options. I should probably fire them now that I've seen all they have to offer. But that feels like such a waste after having gotten so little out of them. As if a hundred Echoes suddenly cried out in terror, and were suddenly silenced.)
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Ben
Ben
Posts: 657

10/23/2014
So, does anybody else think that "seeking" will be steadfast gain?

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dov
dov
Posts: 2580

10/23/2014
Ben wrote:
So, does anybody else think that "seeking" will be steadfast gain?
I think that Seeking should increase a "Masochistic" quirk.

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WormApotheote
WormApotheote
Posts: 725

10/23/2014
Gillsing wrote:
Chris Gardiner wrote:
It's worth mentioning that higher-tier quirk changes also grant more change points of quirks.
All the more reason to make sure one's preferred quirks are high enough to take advantage of all those precious high tier CPs. wink

It's not so much about the feeling in the moment as the feeling during the rest of the game, when one's character has a certain quirk above 10 or not. Unless of course all the quirks will get their own 'laudanum habit', which seems to be a very convenient way for a PoSI to increase Hedonist.


I think adding something like that for every quirk would be a pretty good idea, especially since the idea seems to be it'll take a lot of caution to maintain a high level quirk.

Like -1 cp subtle when you're at subtle 13 is going to be a lot more complicated to get back unless there's a reliable way to offset that, and it might not always be clear which actions will compromise subtle.

I'm also a bit concerned about how that'll work in some situations, like, for example, the Hunting Dangerous Prey options

[spoiler]Basically there's very little reason to choose Go For the Throat, since Stalk Your Prey subtly is an easier challenge, and has a lower consequence for failure, but provides the same CP of The Hunt is On. So if you're trying to keep Forceful (or is it Daring? I can't remember xP) up you're basically forced to take a worse option, and since that storyline involves repeating those actions a LOT, its a fairly significant effect in the amount of time it'll take (or the amount of quirk it ends up eating)[/spoiler]

Which could further lead to a situation where you need to avoid all the one time content until after you do that, because it'll go faster if you do that storyline first and have it eat all your quirks, and then go use the high tier quirk points to get it back.

Obviously a repeatable, if costly/risky, way to get high tier quirk points would help offset that somewhat.

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NiteBrite
NiteBrite
Posts: 1019

10/24/2014
Ben wrote:
So, does anybody else think that "seeking" will be steadfast gain?

To be honest, this might explain why unaccountably peckish became hard capped at exactly 10 a while ago (reducing all peckishness to 10 or less). It would make a lot of sense for it to take on the 'you were very foolish' quirk mechanic role.

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