Reh
Posts: 10
10/1/2014
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What do you think about the Steel Update?
My very first thought after a few hours was that the beasties and pirates are very sparse now. It seem a bit counter-intuitive. We need to test combat but good luck with that since the spawn rates has been reduced so much. One little lifeberg and it's all over. I feel almost sorry for killing maybe the last one of the species. There used to be 2 lorn flukes near Fathom King, now it's only one, and it's a shame as they're so easy to kill now.
The reduction of terror gain feels like an overkill. I hardly get any terror now. I think the better solution would be to increase base ship speed. I used to bump it from 10 to 25 in the config file, and felt it was just the right balance, but it'd be difficult now since the entire combat is balanced around it.
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Ace Jackson
Posts: 2
10/2/2014
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Well, I have to admit, I didn't actually get a new ship before steel rolled around, though I was fond of how things were going for my characters.
I decided to 'start a new game' when the patch came out and was surprised to find I still had my accommodations when I started. I then promptly got myself knocked off without a will, and so I got my wish for a new game.
Starting out on bottom, I went through about three characters before I hit my stride again. Now, between my rubbery chef, the tireless mechanic, and the reduced terror, I can pretty much go wherever I want on the map, though not without finding myself short on something on the way back to London. Granted, having Mount Palmerston and Demeaux Island spawn next to each other, without being clear on the opposite side of the map with nothing but empty waters around them helped in the early game.
As for the more exacting thoughts:
- Although the map is random, the payment from the admiralty, and other jobs like sphinxstone runs, is not. The closest to an exploit I've had on the maps so far is that the salt lions spawned only two quadrants east and one south, which, in my opinion anyway, is very easily reached. Granted I haven't done much with it for more interest in other jobs/quests which take place about four quads east and one quad to the north or south, so I suppose that's a good sign for the design principles in general. All the same, perhaps something simple could be integrated into the map randomizing code. I know that certain creative industries (or perhaps that's only a company by company basis?) are not allowed to use ideas that fans come up with so I'll (or at least try to as I can't seem to get them in preview) put this suggestion in spoiler tags just in case. [spoiler]The code could note the 'default' value of certain actions like port reports, and then measure the distance out from London using London as origin, say Shepard's Wash is normally x=1 y=0, one east with and no quads north or south, but in this game it spawned x=2 y=-3, (2-1)+(|-3|-|0|)=4 so it would be scaled up by a set amount given the distance variance, whereas the Salt Steppes are normally x=3 y=-1, if it spawned at x=1 y=0, the variance would be (1-3)+(|0|-|-1|)=-3 and thus the reports values are scaled down accordingly. In a general form:
(x actual-x default)+(|y actual's absolute value|-|y default's absolute value|)=variance value.
y values being made absolute since x can only be positive with London as organ but y can be negative. As one last showing, Demeaux island default is x=1 y=1 but if it spawned x=1 y=-1 then this would happen:
(1-1)+(|-1|-|1|)=0, which works because while we have moved it, it is still an equivalent distance.
I'm fairly sure this 'pseudocode' works, but if you see something which introduces an incorrect assessment please let me know, I'm not infallible and would love to learn.[/spoiler]
- I like where we are at with the combat, but like others have mentioned the maneuvering options needs a little work. When fighting zee creatures I throw it in full reverse and hope they can't catch me, when fighting ships, I move to ram them and they run away ineffectually since no one has any aft weapons yet. This is a far more general suggestion without any formulas, but I'll still spoil it for now until told I may do otherwise. This all said, if nothing changes from now to release and the expansions, I think I'd be fine with it overall.
- Finally, I like that there can be large swaths of empty zee, I was against it when I first found it and it was all the same, but with the content update and unique characteristics to them, I'm ok with them, and find that they do help significantly with the new terror mechanics, forcing me to go an extra mile to civilization.
Overall, I'm very happy with this new version, and would recommend giving yourself a few hours to adjust to it.
Also, I'm new here, and would appreciate a little guidance in what suggestions are fine without spoiler tags if someone would tell me. Especially as the forum rules (that I found) only say "Use the [ spoiler] [/spoiler] tag (omit the first space) considerately." and don't post whole storylets or fate locked actions.
*Removing 2nd and third suggestions as spoiler tag seems to only work once a post.
edited by Ace Jackson on 10/2/2014
edited by Ace Jackson on 10/2/2014
edited by Ace Jackson on 10/2/2014
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MidnightVoyager
Posts: 858
10/12/2014
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Dr. Hieronymous Alloy wrote:
I'm honestly surprised the new system has that much opposition. I think it adds a great deal to immersion; there's a feeling of actual sea battle that the game didn't really have before.
Would the people complaining about the new system feel better if the game changed to 1/2 timescale in combat? I.e., everything just took twice as long? I mean, right now everything's on the same timers it was before . . .
I mean, this is still nothing remotely like a twitch game; there really aren't any "mechanical skill" elements, unless you count "putting your engines in reverse." There are some elements like Observations that we haven't seen implemented yet but that's because we saw like six month's worth of development of the old system and we've seen like one month's work on the new system. Have patience and give 'em a little time.
That said, if they wanted to take some of the old code and turn it into a "boarding" or "whaling" mini-game that triggered on ramming and operated like the old game, that would add some depth to the sea-monster battles and give different combat options for those that wanted them.
edited by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy on 10/12/2014
edited by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy on 10/12/2014
The problem is that some people were happy with combat that was ignorable because they didn't play for the combat. I lost 1/3 of my hull to bats and then died to the first ship I saw when I wasn't using an established character. I couldn't get away from the damn things, and they sat behind me and just kited around so I couldn't get away. I can't ignore that to get to the story and exploration I am actually interested in, especially when I HAVE to fight to get some things for said story. And especially when some of the new features (weight slowing me down) made travel and exploration kinda insufferable.
With an established character that has money already, I can sortof overcome some of that, though I seem to constantly hemorrhage money. With a new character, I can't make money period, which means I can't overcome any of the problems I had with combat. I suppose it could be poor balance, but I feel like the slowest thing in the entire zee. Everything always seems faster than me. Evasion is not an option, because everything can run me down. I need repairs constantly, and I'm not making money as it IS with just supplies and fuel expenses. The expense of repairs is on top of the no money I am making in the first place.
Also, saying "well, I'm good at it, that means it's easy!" isn't... particularly helpful? I don't know why you think slowing it down would help. I'm nearly dead in one shot with a new character. Just being nearly dead SLOWER, wouldn't help me out. If anything, as I said, I just feel like I am super slow and everything else is faster. There is no way to even try to dodge. And even when I supply up with my previous character, I sigh in irritation every time I see an enemy because it means loss of progress and extra burning of fuel that I don't want to deal with. Every. Time. Every time I fight, I lose progress and supplies, and I can't run. And then I have to go back to where it died to pick up whatever it dropped.
I am not finding it enjoyable. I am finding it considerably more tedious than a back and forth I could queue up and not pay much attention to.
I did have one trip where I saw no enemies, and that wasn't any better, because I was going SO SLOW. It was like the time I lost half my crew in a mutiny and barely limped into port, but it wasn't exciting. I was fine and good on supplies and fuel, I just felt like "COME ON, LET ME GET BACK TO LONDON ALREADY."
I can't comment on any of the new content because I haven't been able to get to it before I just stop playing because it has ceased to be fun.
EDIT: Jesus, I wrote a lot, SORRY. I was trying to adequately answer your question, ehe. I think you just misunderstood what the problem was that I was having, in my experience.
edited by MidnightVoyager on 10/12/2014
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Midnight Voyager - A blood-cousin to predators. Collector of beasts. Affably mad.
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Flyte
Administrator
Posts: 671
10/13/2014
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Owen Wulf wrote:
Do we have to opt out of the Steel Beta to get all of the new updates? We've folded it back into the main branch, so you shouldn't have to do anything.
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Alexis Kennedy
Posts: 1374
10/13/2014
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Thanks for the feedback, folks! A quick cross-post from the KS thread, because I'm ankle-deep in content:
We are rebalancing, and will keep on rebalancing - the earlier enemies in particular are trickier than we'd like for starting characters, and now their AI is better, we'll be making them less agile. I should add that you can pause the game with the spacebar, and issue orders which will take effect when your'e unpaused... this doesn't feel very obvious right now, and we're working on ways to make it more obvious. Judicious pausing makes everything feel a bit calmer.
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CaptainNemo
Posts: 26
10/27/2014
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29 hours into it and I'm still loving this game. Here's my combat feedback thoughts and suggestions:
Combat insight:
It is a very simple game now and can be very short lived, for either myself or the enemy I'm fighting which varies from 5 hp to 500 hp. The more life an enemy has, the more boring the fight, as I sit and maneuver carefully out of range and dwindle the enemy down with torpedoes with it never spotting me. Of course terror goes up...but I'm concerned about how this will go when terror is increased again. To fight and leave the lights on would mean potentially taking some torpedoes myself, which after two for the Steamboat, it's game over.
Solution #1:
When terror is increased to X, allow lights being off during battle to be reassuring thing to the crew that the zee monster can't see them as well, hence slower terror rate during combat. If not in combat, normal terror rates apply with lights off.
Solution #2:
For longer fights, more things should be happening that DO NOT need to take place screen-action wise. For example, if a player is engaging a Fluke and sitting back just firing torpedo (like I do) lets say after the third torpedo a warning window pops up pausing combat and says, "Your crew yell from below, 'Cap'n a torpedo has jammed!' Heart options occur: #1 you can try to fire again but it may result in damaging the hull. #2 Repair it quickly, penalty ensues. #3 Leave it be, man the engine room and gain +5 speed for evasive maneuvers.
Solution #3:
Random window events during battle:
These events would be drawn from a huge basket of options, so that they rarely are seen twice. They would be short sentences of situations that are taking place, such as:
RANDOM EVENTS:
Example: "During battle, it would appear Storm has favored you and a stalagmite has fallen on your enemy." Effect: Ends battle or reduces the enemies HP by X amount.
Example: "A massive wave has interrupted the battle and has swept your ship leagues away from your foe." Effect: The player is moved to where the enemy is now just visible on the edge of the screen.
Suggestion #4:
It was under my first impression of the game that while zailing, a random zee monster might come up from the depths and initiate a battle. However, I know now that doesn't ever happen. It would be very exciting to see monsters sprout up out of the zee when crossing big open swaths of ocean where there is nothing going on, making those longer trips very boring. Sometimes I get up and go the bathroom and come back. Very rarely has an random event popped up during those times as I'm aware of those.
Also since combat can be very unforgiving depending on your position, facing toward or away from an enemy, let's say a player is crossing the deep and a zee monster begins to surface, game pauses, an event window pops up saying something like, "Your crew scramble in panic as the zee begins to churn and appear as moldy porridge. You've heard of this legend back in London...this must be the dreaded Crawfisher." Options: Fire the engines and try to escape. (100% chance and take 20 points of Hull Damage) or Steel the mens souls, you know how this creature has been defeated. (Temporarily gain +15 iron and choose your facing position before the creature surfaces.)
It would be sweet to also be able to even buy battle 'events' from say the Brass Embassy or some other deviless sort who is willing to trade souls, or your soul, or some strange currency for your fate in the open zee during battle. Ex. One captain's soul for nine lives-phoenix-down-type resurrection/save item.
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Meet me where the sunless sea meets the city...http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Villads
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Nocculi
Posts: 22
10/1/2014
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Yeah, the Steel Beta seems to have a habit of teleporting you back to London if you reload too far out. It didn't break anything for me, though, just...jarringly moved me across half the Zee. I sent in a bug report!
Owen: You can deal with that by getting a Deck gun, which has a much wider firing arc (if a somewhat shorter range). I feel like they should make your default gun a deck one, honestly; fighting with it feels like it makes a lot more sense, while my Forward gun was a longer-ranged secondary weapon for approaches and stuff.
(You'll gain firing solution whenever the enemy is in the fire arc, too; that only coincides with your headlights with the Forward gun.)
. . .
Personally, I think the new combat's a lot of fun! It gives a new dimension to figuring out how to approach an enemy based on what they're doing, so you manage to stay out of their sights. Though enemy ships seem to have a hard time getting a bead on me -- especially compared to the Lifeberg I fought, which was fast, aggressive, and took me down after a prolonged duel. The new sea monster behavior *definitely* seems like it'll make running away from them more interesting.
I would like to see more interesting abilities on the enemy ships, though: things like new fire arcs to avoid, or ships that drop floating bombs behind them, or some such. I just kept expecting them to *do* more when I engaged them, you know?
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Woops
Posts: 3
10/1/2014
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Really wish that ship armor was modeled into the game, it would solve part of the fragility of the ships in the game as well as give more of a difference between something like the cargoship and the big Eschatologue, which really should be able to act unfazed against weaker attacks, usually.
Also, it would be interesting if crew can be killed if they're happless enough to be in front of the cannon ball hurtling at them (maybe with an increase in terror while in combat, especially if you aren't doing so hot?), or from bad damage control, if balance permits.
Damage control actually would be super cool now that I think about it, mostly for the chance for even more ways to do really stupid things.
edited by Woops on 10/1/2014
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Asy1umRat
Posts: 3
10/3/2014
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I am liking the feel of the redesigned combat so far. It makes the world feel more immersive and I actually have started to think about how I can approach enemies on screen. A very welcomed change over all. That said, however, there are a couple changes I could see to the new system that would make it feel more solid:
* Spotlight moves to focus on your current target. Essentially, if you have a beasty or pirate targeted within your attack range, it moves/rotates your light to follow them independent of which direction you are currently facing. This can be offset by decreasing the base time it takes to ready a shot, but it would make combat much less awkward with having to face them constantly (not always an easy feat to accomplish). This would make the combat feel a lot more like an actual sea battle as opposed to a game with rigid controls.
* Building on the above, I do think that combat should be extended slightly, though this may change once more monsters are added to the world map. As far as STEEL is right now, though, I do feel somewhat over powered in the early game, one-shotting most enemies and dealing decent damage to ones that should be more intimidating. Right now the only thing that offsets my damage is having to aim at the creatures, but with the above suggestion that would probably make it INCREDIBLY too easy to deal with attacks. I do realize the current state of the world map, and particularly the beasty spawns, are very much dialed back right now to allow accurate testing so I'll have to come back to this after the update progresses.
* Outside of combat, the scavenging system is pretty nice, though can be a little awkward with the current animations. Pirate ships, for instance, are turned into floating crates, but you still have the option to send zailors with the ruined ship back to London. Perhaps for just those ships there could be a different model besides the boxes?
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deadcrystal
Posts: 125
10/3/2014
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Liking the new combat system q a lot, feels more immersive when you're fleeing at top speed from the horrifying murderbeast Lifebergs who appear from off-screen torquing straight for your horribly vulnerable skin. As opposed to before when a static image confronted you implacably.
As of the moment observations cannot be gathered, rendering the victory options requiring them temporarily inaccessible, and placeholder beasts can completely wreck you, as you have no way of automatically escaping them.
I am assuming, Torpedos/Cannons/Flensing options will be added at some point, but I guess we'll see how things play out.
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http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Alice~Darkmoor
A determined Dolphin - Alexis
Great Grind Empress, and Knife and Candle Queen
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Dr. Hieronymous Alloy
Posts: 228
10/4/2014
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Well, it seems like you can beat just about any actual ship just by charging straight at them and making the AI turn around. I also notice that the AI ships are significantly more maneuverable than my ship is. I think a slight increase in maneuverability / decrease in turning radius might be in order. ]Edit: after more play I think this is a significantly bigger issue than I did at first. I'd really like to see the AI ships have turning radius comparable to ours (and a corresponding need to turn earlier, etc.) or give our ships more turn rate, or something. Their ability to turn on a dime really over-simplifies combat all around).
I hadn't really played since they randomized the terrain, so *that* adds an element of challenge. I wish that incomplete islands would always spawn further away but I guess that's silly to code for.
Do the various lamps give any variety to your illumination radius? It would be neat if they varied in arc length and radius.
I feel like the Deck guns should be more of a broadside type thing with less of a forward radius, and maybe come in pairs (left and right sides. Make forward and aft guns for chasing and running away, and force deck gun battles into side to side.
Also be good to have a "Boarding!" option when you're very close to enemy ships, to let your crew just straight up battle the enemy crew.
Also would be good to have a "Launch Boats!" option. Send out crew in boats to attack the target. Think like whaling ships or boarders in away boats. Once out they'd auto attack to melee range and you'd lose control. Could pick them up once combat ends.
There is a bug where if you run away from a fight it never actually ends -- you stay in "combat mode" till you relog. This is a problem because it means that things won't trigger (like, for example, Desperate Measures).
edited by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy on 10/5/2014
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http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Doctor~Hieronymous
Please, no photographers.
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Owen Wulf
Posts: 715
10/6/2014
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I believe the tactic of boarding wasn't really a part of naval warfare by the time steamships were par for the course. Boarding a fully manned enemy ship is a bloody and messy affair, and a huge risk. I'm pretty sure that steamships were also produced quickly enough that the rewards of such a tactic (a captured ship) did not justify the costs in lives lost. Better to sink a ship and move on I would think. The game already allows us to try and salvage a defeated ship for a bounty - after the crew has been dealt with of course.
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edited by Owen Wulf on 10/6/2014
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 Owen Wulf's Profile  Lanzo Hoffman’s Profile  Lukas Uller’s Profile
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InfiniteMonkey
Posts: 11
10/6/2014
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My thoughts about Steel:
- It's sooo much better than the old combat system
- The firing arcs should change colour to indicate how far along the firing solution is (red->yellow->green, where green is 100% hit)
- The firing arcs could (in my opinion) be a lot more subtle/transparent
- An indication of when the enemy has seen you/combat has actually started would be very useful
- At the moment, my combat tactic is always to sail backwards, keeping the enemy in range of my forward gun. This feels very strange, and it would be nice to have the combat feel more 'proper'. Perhaps don't have forward guns, but only port/starboard (or have the forward guns be very weak, but fire quickly, so they are good for weak enemies only). I don't really have a good solution for this one though
- Some indication of where enemies are at in their firing solution would be nice, but not vital.
- More possibilities for staying out of enemy firing arcs and other strategic maneuvering would be very nice. The maneuvering feels quite arcade/strange at the moment
- The fact that many enemies can one or two shot kill you has been mentioned several times in this thread, and I agree that it shouldn't be like that. Perhaps methods of dodging shots just as/before they are fired? E.g. putting on a burst of speed, which may damage your engines in the long run, but avoids certain death right now.
- Not Steel specific, but waiting for the RNG to spit out a specific random event is painful, and in my opinion the one worst thing about this game. For example, I only need one item for the curator, but getting it requires the same (very rare) event to pop up twice. I've been sitting at the port for ages, just waiting for Sometime Awaits You to pop up and going back into the port over and over. Perhaps, each time SAY happens, events that AREN'T triggered become slightly more likely, so over the course of 10-20 SAY events you are almost guaranteed to get the rarer events?
- For terror, in my opinion you should return to the old terror increase speed, to make exploration properly terrifying, but then stop terror increase entirely during combat - who has time to be terrified in the heat of battle?
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Diptych
Administrator
Posts: 3493
10/6/2014
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The terror reduction's for testing purposes rather than a permanent feature at this point.
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Sir Frederick, the Libertarian Esotericist. Lord Hubris, the Bloody Baron.
Juniper Brown, the Ill-Fated Orphan. Esther Ellis-Hall, the Fashionable Fabian.
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Dr. Hieronymous Alloy
Posts: 228
10/8/2014
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Unfortunately it seems to be possible to exploit terrain to get melee creatures hung up and unable to attack. Just killed a colossal fluke-core, a bound shark, and a few other beasts that way.
Overall I really like the framework but it needs some more depth added.
edited by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy on 10/8/2014
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http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Doctor~Hieronymous
Please, no photographers.
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AuntyJack
Posts: 1
10/10/2014
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Only had one quick game - impressions so far:
Too easy to die - ship turns too slowly; other ships seem to be more maneuverable than you.
Not intuitive enough to figure out how to fire/whether you're locked on etc. By the time I'd figured out what was going on, I'd taken a hit.
As per other contributors, I'd like to see
ship armour
adjusted maneuvering
How about auto fire a-la FTL combat? So long as you can keep the enemy in the fire arc, your gunnery crew fires at will.
I haven't checked elsewhere in the forums, but what about the idea of combat instances, instead of doing it on the main map? Surely the main map is not all to scale.
I've found it awkward and frustrating so far, but will persist.
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IHNIWTR
Posts: 346
10/10/2014
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Speaking of the cutter - what is the point of it? Four thousand echos and invested game time for a vessel that seems geared towards combat and prize taking, but because it cant hold anything it's dependent on staying near London for fuel, supplies and crew, unable to venture out to where there might be enough capturable ships to make it a worthwhile purchase.
edited by IHNIWTR on 10/10/2014
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https://www.fallenlondon.com/profile/Daniel%20Vaise
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Fall Acious
Posts: 12
10/10/2014
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So after trying out the combat a bit, I have mixed feelings. It's certainly an interesting dynamic, but pretty unbalanced at the moment. Obviously, that will continue to be tweaked. Seconding the people who have mentioned that the decrease in enemies has made going to Zee a lot more expensive. The Pirate ships around Gaider's Mourn were always a useful source of Supplies and Fuel.
I'd say my biggest gripe is with the cargo crates defeated enemies drop that you have to go fetch; combat already burns up a ton of Fuel, is it really necessary to make us backtrack to get the loot from a kill?
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Kirr
Posts: 44
10/11/2014
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So, I made a new captain and tried the combat. Things I do not like about it: the viciously steep learning curve, the lack of evasion/Veils options, the Fuel burn, the way even weak enemies can two-shot sink you, the difficulty of running, the difficulty of coming out of any encounter without needing to do heavy repairs. I messed around with it for an hour last night and, after the third time I sank, X-ed out in immense frustration.
Yes, fine, casual gamer can't take a challenge, how tragic, but surely if they're trying to convert FL players, they don't just want really dedicated people? Surely my first experience of such an integral part of the gameplay shouldn't have been analogous to bashing my head repeatedly against a wall? Ugh. I probably will go back in a few days, because I really want the new story content, but right now every time I think about trying combat again my brain immediately presents me with five more pleasant things I could be doing with my down time instead.
(This is a very griping comment. I appreciate your work, Sunless Sea guys! How about a difficulty slider for the minor enemies, or does that go against the "Lose Your Mind Eat Your Crew" philosophy?)
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Demut
Posts: 26
10/12/2014
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I did and I do. That doesn’t really help.
And yes, I only recently obtained a copy of this game but prior to that I watched hours upon hours of Let's Plays to make the wait until I got my hands on it more bearable.
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Demut
Posts: 26
10/12/2014
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Given that the game is still very much in development I think it’s possible that FBG will return to the initial system provided we petition for it numerously enough.
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EmilyAriel
Posts: 124
10/1/2014
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organicmcgee wrote:
Does anyone know if Steel will be available through Humble Bundle, like Emerald was? I kinda don't want to install steam just for Steel
I suspect when it's fully released it'll be on humble, but while it's an opt-in beta it will remain on Steam. Though perhaps if you sent them an email they could put a build up, I don't know!
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Nocculi
Posts: 22
10/1/2014
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Owen: After some quick checking, it's the "Reproach" and "Denunciation" guns that are deck-mounted, both available from Carrow's Naval Surplus.
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Tara Dresbach
Posts: 59
10/1/2014
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The combat has a definite learning curve. I'm trying to learn how to maneuver with this new combat, but it's not easy.
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http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Tara~Dresbach
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Eredras Blackzee
Posts: 1
10/2/2014
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- I feel like I should preface this a bit. Those of use with long standing games (like me) might have a slightly skewed view of how things are right at the moment of this release. I have a fully pimped out Arcade of Sighs , a non random map and very high stats... Such as it is at this time. This is neither a good or bad thing. Just something to keep in mind! =D
Now! With that out of the way...
COMBAT-
- Glad for the changes. Its a bold step up from the old! I was/am hoping for a wider more standard left/right"broadside" style weapon down the line With a narrow front gun. That just might be the 'Zurface 'Zailor in me.
- Following that- I'd also like to see differentiated arcs in existing weapons and, more broadly; ship equipment overall.
- I agree in feeling like things are overall a little slow and underpopulated right now. But- as noted by Sir Francis? I expected that as per the release notes. More to come, here!
- I find myself fighting in reverse speeds most, currently. Is this intended?
TERROR-
- Liking changes for terror gain overall. Static and coastal light seems better implemented. I was slightly miffed about the way it was prior regarding ambient civilization and whatnot.
- I still think lighthouses need more buffing/relevance to our lives, somehow.
- I do feel terror -as of this writing- needs to be scaled to gain some of its bite back. I'd like to see a compromise here. As I like the way the mechanic is currently going in this incarnation.
BUGGAGE-
- Same sort of TP bug as some others. I quit via mutton island. on reload it it says mutton/Quaker's and those storylets. But my ship is at Shepherd/Fieldhaven isles. Odd. I can still launch from port and everything though.
- As others mentioned frame rates are not where they should be. I run a pretty solid gaming rig. It's slightly troubling that this is an issue in a game with rather simple, though very beautiful visuals . I am by no means an expert to the factors involved here!
STORIES-
- Are not something i'm trying to pry into, too much! I want to preserve the mystery for myself. I'd been testing how long I can keep the BC alive in a 580+ day game. (protip: not long. ;_; RiP)
- Are back to being added, yay! ^_^ Honestly I don't have a lot more to say about them as yet.
- I'd still like to see some port side storage being added into the two major cities of the current game. I put it here because you could easily add stories and risk factors involved to obtaining and having them. Wish list item, but I think it'd be appropriate and thematic addition.
TODO/CONCLUSIONS-
- Continue listening very nicely to our feedback and acting on it. we really appreciate it!
- Add enough interesting landmass and stories to make me think a full reroll is warranted. XD
- Tighten/raise/resolve frame rate issues. Is there a way to show FPS? It might help s players put this to bed.
- WISH LIST- Port storage, more ship items added/variety/ differentiated weapons/ quest gear (A'la The Serpentine.)
- SUPER WISH LIST- customization on ships are something i'd love, personally.Doodads and colors! Also such randomization on enemy ships where appropriate.
Overall, I think this is a very encouraging step taken, Indeed!! I'm glad FB takes the time and effort to listen to fans input and actually do something meaningful with it to improve their product for us. in the short term here they're delaying their game. Many companies would say "deal with it." Having a solid dialogue with your player base and being willing to commit to things you are new to/ uncomfortable with/didn't think were possible as a company builds great brand loyalty and I'm thinking a great game.
TLDR-
EDITS-
- So far just spelling and grammar!
edited by Eredras Blackzee on 10/2/2014
edited by Eredras Blackzee on 10/2/2014
--
"A man of the 'Zee. Now committed to becoming a well regarded man-about-town in the 5th city."
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Eredras~Blackzee
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Beanstalker
Posts: 7
10/2/2014
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So here's my thoughts on the new combat model so far:
- Getting two-shotted, and two-shotting enemies, is a problem, but that can be sorted with simple numbers balancing. Not overly concerned here.
- Your arcs can be hard to see in certain situations. You may want to improve their visibility.
- Seeing an enemy's arcs would make for much more interesting gameplay. Right now dodging his arcs comes down to a lucky guess as to which weapons he has, and memorization later on. Not particularly fun IMO. Seeing how far along his solution is would also make for interesting gameplay.
I know this is a bit gamey, since there's no good reason why you should have that information. Maybe tie it to having certain pieces of equipment?
- I get why you changed it so you don't loose your firing solution progress when an enemy leaves your arc. But you went all the way to the other extreme, from infinite firing solution decay speed to zero firing solution decay. I think you should at least let us test gradual solution decay.
- Right now, I see little point in firing before reaching full firing solution, since the overall DPS will stay the same. Firing prematurely only opens you up to the risk of getting screwed by the RNG, with no commensurate reward that I can see.
Now, if there were firing solution decay, that would be a different story... am I correct in assuming this mechanic is a holdover from when you had instant, full decay?
- I feel Veils, aside from allowing for ambushes and sneaking past, should impact combat more directly - it did with the old model. The obvious choice would be to have it directly counteract Mirrors by slowing down firing solutions. If you implement gradual solution decay, it could also affect the speed of that decay (so should Mirrors, in that case).
- I think it might be worth our time to test a small "reloading-cooldown" before you can build a new firing solution after firing. This would encourage players to sweep through different firing arcs so they can fire with one gun while another is reloading.
- Alternatively, that cooldown could work in parallel with firing solutions: If an enemy enters an arc, firing solution will build as usual. It will remain at maximum *even after firing* and only decay if the enemy leaves the arc. However, the reloading cooldown means you still have to wait after each shot.
I think this would offer some interesting equipment choices. Do I want a gun that fires fast but takes long to aim, or vice versa?
- Question: Any reason why the arcs for ALL guns need to be static? Perhaps give *some* guns a mobile, but very narrow arc. If the "turning rate" of that arc is slow enough, it could still make for interesting gameplay. Turret turning could be both automatic or manual (mouse cursor). Play SPAZ for an example of how turrets *can* be fun. I'm not saying that this should be in Sunless Sea, but I do think it should be tried out.
edited by Beanstalker on 10/2/2014
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Diptych
Administrator
Posts: 3493
10/1/2014
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Per the Patch Notes, monster spawning and terror increase have both been deliberately turned down while the new combat mechanics are being tested. So if they seem too low, well, that's deliberate and will be adjusted later! And do remember to report bugs to sunlesssea@failbettergames.com
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Sir Frederick, the Libertarian Esotericist. Lord Hubris, the Bloody Baron.
Juniper Brown, the Ill-Fated Orphan. Esther Ellis-Hall, the Fashionable Fabian.
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WormApotheote
Posts: 725
10/1/2014
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So far my only reaction is 'oh god these framerates are awful' (which is at least 50% the fact that so is my computer at the moment, but this is notably worse than Emerald was.)
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No, I don't pull the Eater of Names.
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Reh
Posts: 10
10/1/2014
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After a few dozen fights I must say the combat is fun and engaging!
It was some great decision making on the devs' part. People used to complain that fights are too frequent but it was only because it was such drudgery. Now combat has become a feature of the game instead of being a drag. Making it seamless adds a whole new level to the game.
The current system seems to be surprisingly well balanced. It feels like a nice middle ground between strategy and arcade. The only thing I find jarring is turning speed which is constant. Enabling the ship to rotate while stationary looks out of place. I strongly feel that it ought to be relative to the ship's speed - 0 speed = 0 turning speed, full speed = full turning speed. Also, since sailing is so much more important now, maybe adding one stop to the ship's throttle - 0, 1/3, 2/3, full - to add some flexibility.
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Kirr
Posts: 44
10/30/2014
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Oh for ------'s sake.
As I said I would, I left it a while until the system was rebalanced, then just logged on to try again now. I'm just so d--nably frustrated by the whole thing. I appreciate that pirates and bats do vastly less damage. I appreciate I can probably survive now. But I can't get the hang of how to move or evade effectively and combat is making me furious. I gave up again halfway to Venderbight.
I really want to be able to deal efficiently with the small enemies, but it's not intuitive even after the handful of fights I've now been in. Am I just supposed to run away from them? Am I supposed to just exchange shots and accept the hull damage, trading it off against the reward? I was too exasperated even to check if the rewards are any better than they used to be.
It's possible SS isn't aimed at me in its new version, but after having hours of fun with it that's a hard pill to swallow. Alert me when there's an in-game tutorial, I suppose? I'll be over in Fallen London.
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Carol Liddle
Posts: 18
10/18/2014
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So far the experience has been enjoyable. I like how I have to balance my terror and consider where I fight my enemies and how. But being unable to evade enemy ship damage is rather annoying.
A nicely timed evasive manoeuvres which are dependent on your veils would be cool.
Spawn rates seem quite reasonable. Wouldn't want to be battling constant monsters and ships.
The new terror rate is reasonable as a result of the new combat system as well. Terror is now manageable.
edited by Carol Liddle on 10/18/2014
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MidnightVoyager
Posts: 858
10/13/2014
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Dr. Hieronymous Alloy wrote:
Sorry, I'm not trying to claim any special skill. I agree it's really easy to die with a new character under the new system but it was really easy to die with a new character under the old system too (especially if you picked non-combat starting options).
It's possible my view of things is slanted because I started my new character under the beta branch of Steel where you could just steam right towards enemy ships and they'd turn around and run away giving you a free shot, so maybe that got me through the awkward early stages.
I do agree overall that the ships need rebalancing, especially the newbie ship; more importantly, enemy ships need their maneuverability significantly nerfed, because right now they have a HUGE rate-of-turn advantage that can turn new players into sitting ducks very easily.
I still think the best overall advice is "embrace death with your first few characters." Part of roguelikes is taking it on the chin every so often, and that's part of Sunless Sea too. If you pick the "preserve a skill" option you can ladder yourself up a fair bit and each new death is an opportunity for growth!
I don't think that those problems are condemnations of the whole new system though. Remember, we're only seeing about, what, a month or two's worth of development on the new combat system? This is just the bare, raw framework.
EDIT: if your goal is just "ignoring combat," ehh, I get that you just want to explore but combat and danger seems like a necessary part of that to me. You can't have a terrifying underground ocean without sea monsters and pirates, and I want to fight those sea monsters and pirates. In terms of immersion and feel, this combat is a big improvement over the old combat. The old combat was monotonous and boring and grindy and broke my sense of sailing on an underground ocean because it ignored the terrain and landmarks and coastlines and was just HIT BUTTON. Now when I'm battling a sea monster, I'm not just HITTING BUTTON, I'm chasing a sea-serpent through the Labyrinth of Eels, or being chased by pirates through the Phosgene Bleaks. There's an added element of strategy (I can't run away forever or I'll run aground!) but more importantly there's increased immersion because the combat is constrained by the geography in a way it wasn't before.
Would you be happier if "old combat" came back, or if there was just a mode select on startup that turned off combat completely?
edited by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy on 10/13/2014
I don't mind having combat, but I didn't want to have to make it my entire focus. In the old system, I could get over it and go on my merry way. I could swat down weaker things and pay attention for the bigger things. I could form a strategy and pull it off. I could even avoid it if I wanted. As it stands? It does not improve my immersion at all because I don't enjoy it. I haven't found a single bit of the new content yet, and I am losing money left and right, and I can't bring myself to play for more than a few minutes at a time without getting tired of it or annoyed at it. I can only back up and wait for bars to fill so I can hit a button so many times.
I can't understand what you're saying about the new combat system being more strategic, really. You back up. You wait for bars to fill. You fire. It is equally monotonous, boring, and grindy as the old system once you figure it out. But in the old system, I could queue things up and not pay attention to how monotonous, boring, and grindy it is when the enemy's something basic. You make it sound a lot more pleasantly exciting than it is. You CAN, in fact, run away forever without hitting ground, just turn away from the land. And you better, because it is the only functional strategy. The times I have died after I figured things out (and started avoiding bats like the plague) are because I got tired of losing ground and tried something different. Of course, I've barely got away from London without giving up my will to explore, so all I've fought is pirates and crabs.
And the game has claimed to allow for different styles of play. You're supposed to be able to go out and hunt or pursue trade or pursue stories. Now? The only thing that keeps you from constant combat is an incredibly lowered concentration of enemies, trade is something I can't figure out because of how limited everything is and I lose money every time, and the changes are keeping me from exploring.
I don't really think requiring that someone dies every one or two steps out from the port until they can handle the zee and giving them a really specific needed build to survive helps anything. It certainly doesn't help having more than one option of playstyle. A lot of what people say you need to survive on the zee is stuff you need to purchase, and you don't keep money between deaths. And money is the hardest thing to get at the start.
I never had a problem with dying in combat in the old system once I gained some competence at it. Because I could avoid combat. The things that killed me were running out of money (because it was still difficult to get a good cash flow) and supplies or hitting high fear or trying to fight something big and scary I'd never seen before. I felt like I could attain basic competence right out of the gate with a new character and blind experimentation. I could get away from things. I died because I made a bad decision, not because I dared peek out of the harbor and ran into a damn bat.
I had great, harrowing experiences in combat on the zee that added to the story that was going on behind it. I decided to explore, and I had a mutiny near the Khanate. I survived it by killing most of my crew. We crawled back toward London, torn between avoiding combat and diving into combat for supplies. I stalled right outside the harbor and only survived because a pirate ship attacked and we took their fuel. That was great. As it stands now, my great story about high life on the zee is about how a bat sat right behind me and took down a third of my hull because I couldn't face it. That is the dullest combat story I have heard in my life, and it was really irritating to experience.
It's a lot of effort for no satisfying reward is what I'm trying to say, I guess? And I feel like I'm being jammed into a specific style of play and character.
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Midnight Voyager - A blood-cousin to predators. Collector of beasts. Affably mad.
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MatthewtheMagnificent
Posts: 62
10/2/2014
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Ah Steel, how we waited and how glorious you turned out to be. Terror, what terror? The new islands look breathtaking, but most of those marvelous places are issued with placeholders. The one you can enter pretty much made the day, feels like a little original Fallen London down in the sunless zea.
Combat is a lot of fun, but can be a little nervewracking for those without Carminus guns and 3 feet of steel between them and the beasties, interesstingly the one enemy who almost sinks me everytime isn't the mighty fluke but that pesky little crab who moves faster than my freighter can turn and aim and crushes it against the next best shore.
Things to do:
-Auxillaryitems, please.
-Aftguns, pretty please.
-Keep up the great work.
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GerbilSchooler
Posts: 86
10/2/2014
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censor wrote:
Hello.
Yesterday I was playing the game, and I think the new combat system is horrible. Really awful. I have been playing the game since the first beta, but I uninstalled the game after a couple of fights.
Hmm... that's a rather harsh criticism without making any points to back up your statement, I am not saying that you do not find combat horrible as it stands in Steel. But, perhaps you could provide more insight as to what about the new system you detest so much? Perhaps there is just something about how the new system works that hasn't yet "clicked" with you?
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MatthewtheMagnificent
Posts: 62
10/3/2014
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Well "Steel" is not yet an official update but more of a beta update, which is why it's not in the "get new stories".
To quote from the newspage:
How To Get It We’ve put it in an opt-in beta branch on Steam while we gather feedback and work out some of the kinks. We’ll migrate over everyone to the new branch in the next week or so. In the meantime, here’s how to get to it:
- Right-click on SUNLESS SEA in your Steam Library.
- Choose Properties | Beta, and select ‘steel_beta’ from the dropdown.
- Close the properties panel, and you’ll have an update waiting.
(If you can’t see steel_beta in the dropdown, restart Steam).
IMPORTANT! You can switch back to the old version – for a little while – but new games started under STEEL will not be compatible with the old version.
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