ancusohm
Posts: 77
9/10/2014
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In this topic, I will be attempting to make sense of the devils, who are one of the most intriguing factions (in my opinion).
There will be a lot of spoilers.
I will be grouping into a few rough topics. I would really appreciate feedback.
The Origins of Devils
- Devils probably come from Parabola
I've heard that the devils apparently once cohabited with the Fingerkings in Parabola. Can anyone back that up?
Devils arguably still reside in Parabola, since Hell has been described as being on the edge of Parabola. Although, since they only live on the edge (and also, IIRC, the Fingerkings are implied to be willing to help the bishop invade hell), Devils and Fingerkings presumably had some kind of conflict in the past. Does anyone have any proof of a Devil v. Fingerking war?
- Are Devils literally Christian devils?
The devils were active in Second City ( ~1300 BC), which means they existed long before Christianity and quite possibly before even Judaism. However, they look and act much like how and 1800's British person might expect. They have fangs and yellow eyes. They refer to their home as 'Hell' and mention it was a monarchy. Also, they trade in souls, even though the idea of the devil buying one's soul didn't even exist until the 6th century AD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theophilus_of_Adana).
It seems like there are two possible explanations:
1) Devils have always existed in more or less their current form and the Abrahamic religions simply never mentioned their penchant for purchasing souls for ~2000 years.
2) Devils have somehow taken a form familiar to Londoners, taking on the role of 'devils' for reasons of their own.
The second explanation seems more likely to me. It would explain why, as far as I know, Devils are not harmed by holy water or warded of by crosses/church bells/whatever, the way one would expect Christian devils to react. This would also explain why angels have never shown up, because they don't exist in this setting.
The Actions of the Devils in Previous Cities
- The Duchess claims that the devils were active in the Second City.
- The Gracious Widow is familiar with Devils, noting that they have become active in 'the game' once more.
This seems to imply that the Devils were active in the Fourth City. Can any Silver Tree players back that up?
- Can anyone confirm their presence in the First or the Third City?
- Does anyone know if Devils called themselves something else in the other cities?
Why do they want souls?
- Seriously, what do they do with them?
- For that matter, what are souls?
All I know is that souls appear to provide morals, motivation, and some forms of happiness to humans, and that can be destroyed by hyper-concentrated sadness (Lacre). Also, I've heard that they are 'star spore,' which suggests a worrying connection to the Judgments.
Do the Devils have a connection to the Judgments?
- They collect souls, which are apparently 'star spore'
- They emit intense heat, (like miniature suns?)
Any thoughts/ideas/suggestions?
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deadcrystal
Posts: 125
9/11/2014
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Devils are fun good best friends. Beeee Friendzzzzz. Also something in, I think, Sunless Sea indicates they believe all Souls are theirs by right. And they certainly wouldn't lie about that, so cough yours up. It's not like you need it, so you'll be a bit stilted, no big deal. Devils are also super fashionable! Best Styles! Znazziezt hatz! They get fashion tips from the future maybe. Time is a flame and all that, wild at the edges, and Devils certainly inhabit a lot of edges.
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dragonridingsorceress
Posts: 622
11/17/2014
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We've overlooked something terribly obvious. Devils have terrible fashion sense, right?
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osthavula
Posts: 10
6/4/2017
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dragonridingsorceress wrote:
We've overlooked something terribly obvious. Devils have terrible fashion sense, right?
To them, it was us who have terrible fashion sense.
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Profile: http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Osthavula
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Mordaine Barimen
Posts: 670
9/19/2014
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"Dream of a Sunrise," anyone?
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If you still need help, try the IRC channel.
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Hark DeGaul
Posts: 208
7/14/2017
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When we talk devils we tend to think 'yellow eyes and fedoras' but how do Goat demons fit into all of this? Are they the same creatures as devils just wearing a different shape, a piece of Hellish wildlife or something completely unrelated? As far as I know we haven't heard anything.
We also need to consider that devils don't seem to work on human time. They wear fedoras, reference Paris and have a phonograph that plays jazz in the Century Exhibition. Either they are bizarrely predictive or they are not constrained by time like humans and furthermore are capable of travelling backwards through it to at least some degree.
I mean they did rebel against the laws of physics so anything goes I suppose.
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WormApotheote
Posts: 725
9/18/2014
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Sam Powick wrote:
Connection with prisoners honey?
Yeah the devils are the lamplighter bees, I'm pretty sure.
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No, I don't pull the Eater of Names.
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friendshipranger
Posts: 274
9/19/2014
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WormApotheote wrote:
Sam Powick wrote:
Connection with prisoners honey?
Yeah the devils are the lamplighter bees, I'm pretty sure.
So, based on the writing, I guess I'm not the only one who grew up with a life long distrust of bees.
edited by friendshipranger on 9/19/2014
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WormApotheote
Posts: 725
9/11/2014
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I know you can find a "Judgment's Egg" which looks like a soul in Sunless Sea. (Plus I think the Boatman can say something about that, but I haven't gotten Chess with Death high enough to know what he actually says beyond the wiki snippet)
Also devils are bees.
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No, I don't pull the Eater of Names.
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Zephyr15
Posts: 58
10/2/2014
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Since we know the devils were originally from Parabola, and (as far as I know) have never been on the Surface, one possibility is that the devils happen to be is-not. Which could have something to do with a desire to create their own judgements?
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Ben
Posts: 657
10/3/2014
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Zephyr15 wrote:
WormApotheote wrote:
Well Prisoner's Honey is apparently mentioned by Pliny the Elder, though that could just mean he had access to the Neath
Or that it was exported
Exported, under cover of darkness. Kept in sealed containers to prevent the light of day from reaching it and converting it. Only ever sampled in the darkest of rooms at midnight on moonless nights, lest the reflected light dilute the honey?
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folklore364
Posts: 136
7/21/2017
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Something I'm curious about, has a devil ever been exposed to direct sunlight?
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http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/folklore364
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dismallyOriented
Posts: 215
9/18/2014
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The Lamplighter Bees that make the honey are supplied by Hell, I believe. It's a sort of collaborative effort between the Devils and Parabola.
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Optimatum
Posts: 3666
7/14/2017
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folklore364 wrote:
DoYouMined wrote:
folklore364 wrote:
It needs to be mentioned that at least something like heaven/angels in the fallen london universe, but they haven't been active for a long time. If you talk to the Bishop of st. Fiacre i believe, he will mention about them having not come down. the recent exceptional story with the train ride to hell also brings in anecdotes about them.
I'd still say there's no actual evidence to it, just hellish phrasing.
A more interesting piece of the Helltrain story, I think, is likely the reason for their need for souls. Hell burns souls in their Law-Factories, creating new Law. Souls being judgement spores, it all clicks together, I think.
No the bishop pretty much mentioned something about heaven/angels, mostly that they'd been absent for a long time. It comes up during Diocesan Intrigues.
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Reviarda?fromEchoId=1386118
The Bishop is saying it's embarrassing for the Church that the devils are around but angels haven't shown up. That's not evidence that angels exist, just evidence that the Church believes in them.
(The bit about "that blessed place" and partaking isn't actually about angels either, I think. From the phrasing it sounds like the Bishop is referring to the Garden and, like the other Snuffers, is desperate to return.)
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PM me for information enigmatic or Fated. Though the forum please, not FL itself.
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Ben
Posts: 657
10/13/2014
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Wait, I've got it, and it's possible with the tech of the time.
Hammer out gold until it's slightly larger then a coin, and thin enough to manipulate.
One spoon of honey into the middle, just enough for somebody without resistance.
Fold the coin over, your making a golden ravioli shape.
Gently hammer the edges shut with a heated hammer while ice rests on the center, keeping the honey from scortching. The goal here is to make the metal sealed absolutely.
You'll just EAT it, gold and all.
I'd still transport it in a lead box, and only take it to the surface on a thickly clouded night, when the stars can't be seen, after moonset on a new moon night.
edited by ICountFrom0 on 10/13/2014
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The wind has no destination.
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Tystefy
Posts: 450
7/13/2017
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All I want to know is, after trading my soul for a fabulous diamond TWICE, ...
... why do they spend it on really cheap and trivial things?! Oh, here's 312.5 echos. Lemme just spend your soul on a cabbie, or popcorn, or blah blah blah...
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Will sometimes return to post absurdity.
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Blaine Davidson
Posts: 388
7/13/2017
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Tystefy wrote:
All I want to know is, after trading my soul for a fabulous diamond TWICE, ...
... why do they spend it on really cheap and trivial things?! Oh, here's 312.5 echos. Lemme just spend your soul on a cabbie, or popcorn, or blah blah blah...
I mentioned this in another posts about Devils, but during when competing with Virginia over the discovery of the Correspondence Stones she admits she was more interested in the hunt than actually getting the Stones themselves.
So it wouldn't be inaccurate to say the Devil just really wanted your soul but once he had it no longer cared what became of it.
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Blaine Davidson, a reserved and sensible woman with a fondness of collecting rarities.
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A Dimness
Posts: 613
7/13/2017
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DoYouMined wrote:
folklore364 wrote:
It needs to be mentioned that at least something like heaven/angels in the fallen london universe, but they haven't been active for a long time. If you talk to the Bishop of st. Fiacre i believe, he will mention about them having not come down. the recent exceptional story with the train ride to hell also brings in anecdotes about them.
I'd still say there's no actual evidence to it, just hellish phrasing.
A more interesting piece of the Helltrain story, I think, is likely the reason for their need for souls. Hell burns souls in their Law-Factories, creating new Law. Souls being judgement spores, it all clicks together, I think.
That's... actually a really sensible theory.
Now the question is, why do the Devils wish to change the Laws at all?
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A truth so strange it can only be lied into existence
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DoYouMined
Posts: 13
7/13/2017
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folklore364 wrote:
It needs to be mentioned that at least something like heaven/angels in the fallen london universe, but they haven't been active for a long time. If you talk to the Bishop of st. Fiacre i believe, he will mention about them having not come down. the recent exceptional story with the train ride to hell also brings in anecdotes about them.
I'd still say there's no actual evidence to it, just hellish phrasing.
A more interesting piece of the Helltrain story, I think, is likely the reason for their need for souls. Hell burns souls in their Law-Factories, creating new Law. Souls being judgement spores, it all clicks together, I think.
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Avian Overlord
Posts: 62
11/11/2014
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There was a theory that the devils are the "bees of the lamplighter rose" in this thread right? Well, Nemesis disproves that rather thoroughly. You go through at least two beehives of lamplighter bees, and they are well, bees.
I also find it difficult to believe the Devils are appearing as Devils to make Londoners more comfortable. Devils are cunning after all, and any plan that includes "pretend to be the evil figures of their religion, who their gospel says seek to damn and destroy mankind, in order to make them trust us!" is the opposite of cunning. In addition, I feel it would have come up if they changed appearances for every city. A conversation in SS also seems to confirm they have existed longer than humans themselves (as they do in Christian lore), and that they harvested souls from protohumans.
All in all, I see little reason to doubt they are the devils of Christianity.
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Open for social actions of all sorts.
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dragonridingsorceress
Posts: 622
9/21/2014
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In a certain bit of Fate-locked content, the Duchess says "Hell's presence here pre-dates the Second City."
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DragonRidingSorceress is an Author of good standing. Mostly good standing. She's happy to accept any social action except Photographer and Loitering, but requests warnings before duping/poisoning/etc.
Seeker of Names is a... being with an obsession. They're willing to accept all invitations.
One who seeks to know all that is and may be. One who dances in the silence of the void. One whose fantasies make the reality come alive.
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WormApotheote
Posts: 725
10/3/2014
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Mordaine Barimen wrote:
While dealing with your troublesome Aunt, I believe that you can discover that Prisoner's Honey loses all effect when taken Above.
That is also mentioned in Sunless Sea (and glim also melts when exposed to sunlight)
My guess would be the passage into the Neath at lake Avernus was around before they built the Cumaean canal though and some people explored it.
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No, I don't pull the Eater of Names.
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WormApotheote
Posts: 725
10/7/2014
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I mean assuming judgments sunlight follows the same laws of physics as sunlight in our universe it'd actually be pretty simple to do, a sealed metal box would be enough.
But i wouldn't count on it being that simple.
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No, I don't pull the Eater of Names.
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Ben
Posts: 657
10/9/2014
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With the level of technology, "sealed" isn't going to prevent every photon. Moonlight is sunlight after all.
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The wind has no destination.
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/IcountFrom0
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xKiv
Posts: 846
10/9/2014
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1) moon is not exactly sealed
2) reflected sunlight has different physical properties than direct sunlight (the big one is polarisation, iirc) - and that's not even getting into the metaphysical.
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https://www.fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/xKiv - a witchful, percussive, dangermous and shadowry scholar of coexplodence, hopsidirean, and walker of fallen kitties.
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WormApotheote
Posts: 725
10/10/2014
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It doesn't make a difference, a metal box is a faraday cage and will block electromagnetic radiation. (Except maybe at very short wavelengths)
But it's also pretty clear this world and Fallen London's world do not follow the same laws of physics, despite the superficial similarities, and I can't imagine the Judgments would take kindly to investigating ways to subvert their authority.
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No, I don't pull the Eater of Names.
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xKiv
Posts: 846
10/10/2014
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WormApotheote wrote:
(Except maybe at very short wavelengths)
Visible light [1] has pretty short wavelength ...
(Unless you mean "shorter than the distance between atoms in the metal", in which case - yes, solid metal tends to block light just by being solid; except when the box is not closed, which is when moonlight vs. direct sunlight might make a difference)
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WormApotheote
Posts: 725
10/2/2014
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Well Prisoner's Honey is apparently mentioned by Pliny the Elder, though that could just mean he had access to the Neath
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No, I don't pull the Eater of Names.
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Zephyr15
Posts: 58
10/2/2014
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WormApotheote wrote:
Well Prisoner's Honey is apparently mentioned by Pliny the Elder, though that could just mean he had access to the Neath
Or that it was exported
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Mordaine Barimen
Posts: 670
10/2/2014
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While dealing with your troublesome Aunt, I believe that you can discover that Prisoner's Honey loses all effect when taken Above.
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I'm sorry, but due to policy clarifications, I will no longer be giving detailed mechanics advice on the forums.
If you still need help, try the IRC channel.
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Owen Wulf
Posts: 715
9/11/2014
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Missteps in conversations with one Deviless have revealed that Devils were possibly "hatched" although that little tid-bit might have been intentional misinformation.
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Sam Powick
Posts: 28
9/18/2014
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Connection with prisoners honey?
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Ami Miljkovich
Posts: 98
9/19/2014
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ancusohm wrote:
Can anyone confirm their presence in the First or the Third City?
I don't know about the First City, but I can actually confirm that they at least had some presence in the Third. If you have a guest room at the Brass Embassy, the lodgings-specific opportunity card that pops up will have an option to investigate the connection between the devils and the Correspondence (as long as you're a Scholar of the Correspondence, anyway). The message you get upon success mentions that they've been interested in the Correspondence since at least the Third City.
A fascinating tidbit, certainly, but one that only seems to raise even more questions. Like, for instance, what exactly is Hell's interest in the Correspondence? I know more or less what the Correspondence is and who speaks it thanks to my main's Destiny, but why would they be interested in learning about that? What could they possibly gain? It certainly can't be an idle interest; there's a particular action at the University where you can ask the Brass Embassy for help in keeping Virginia off your back, but upon success they merely offer you an apology and some Proscribed Material for your studies, stating that her orders "come from the very bottom" and that they can't interfere with her.
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The Ever-Scheming Magpie ~ "All I'm after is a fresh start... And maybe a little profit on the side..."
The Blood-Thirsty Moth ~ "This floor isn't red enough. I need to fix that. Come closer."
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WormApotheote
Posts: 725
9/19/2014
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My guess is it'd have some connection to the fact that souls can become stars, and studying the correspondance relates to trying to understand how that works. Which could imply they're trying to make their own.
But that is just speculation.
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No, I don't pull the Eater of Names.
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