Atom Stratomsk
Posts: 44
8/8/2014
|
Sunless Sea has been out a while and "Unforgiving mode" has been around for since the beginning and there's something I'm a bit confused about. In this mode, its purpose is to make the game feel "Unforgiving". Unlike the standard save system, you get only to auto save every time you visit an island.
I hate to say it but this mode can abused to an absurd degree. The SAY events(or just events in general) never auto save when you make an important decision, meaning that important choices can ultimately be circumvented entirely by making a decision, then going back to the main menu if you aren't satisfied with it. I don't know if Unforgiving mode hasn't been fully fleshed out yet(wouldn't be surprised) but I don't see anyone else addressing this. I enjoy really difficult games, Dark souls, FTL, Ascendant, Demon souls, etc so I'm disappointed with how so far all Unforgiving mode amounts to is a worthless token that does nothing gameplay wise. I'm not really annoyed with that as much as I am with the fact that every decisions consequences can be avoided on a mode that's supposed to be unforgiving.
You could just choose to not abuse autosaving to make it feel like every decision matters but no gamer should never have to willfully gimp themselves in order to get the feeling that every decision, from what to buy to which event option to pick matters.
It would be pretty easy to make this work if the game always autosaves after you make a decision specifically on Unforgiving mode. The same could also be said for every time you buy an item as well. It would be annoying if the UI on the bottom left kept saying "Auto saving" so in unforgiving mode the many decisions you will inevitably make should have that bit of text be made invisible to as not distract from the gameplay itself. Unforgiving mode right now is not forgiving at all and it would be unreasonable to expect someone playing Sunless Sea to have the fortitude to not exploit it at this time.
It isn't beneficial at all to exploit Unforgiving mode sure, but the point is that Unforgiving mode is supposed to make you feel like the master of your fate and the captain of your soul. It isn't some mechanic to exploit for a shiny token. Maybe this will be changed in the near future(I hope)but I haven't seen any other threads talking about this so hopefully I'll get some clarification on this.
|
|
|
+2
link
|
lord1box
Posts: 62
8/8/2014
|
I don't agree, Atom. To me, the playstyle where you exit to the main menu every time you get a result you don't like is the unnatural way to play. I can imagine a player hitting alt+f4, if the game were to unexpectedly kill them. Or if they were trying to get the Genial magician. On the other hand: the game offers a mode where you can save, effectively giving you the same effect in an easier way.
I would expect most people who want a bit of extra security to play in merciful mode, rather than use an exploit to achieve the same results. To me, knowing that there is an exploit and not using it makes me feel like the master of my fate and captain of my soul even more.
edited by lord1box on 8/8/2014
|
|
|
+3
link
|
Owen Wulf
Posts: 715
8/8/2014
|
For a single player game, personal preference is important. As rpg players, it is also our natural instinct to look for every exploit to get what we need. Unfortunately, most games were never built to withstand such play-styles and are conditioned more for the casual player. For instance, in vanilla Skyrim - you "can" build yourself up to be a GOD with ehcnahnting/blacksmithing/alchemy but the developers did not know how to limit that without hampering the casual players so they let it happen.
The same is with auto save on Unforgiving, you "can" abuse the heck out of it (which I did) but (again) there is no way for the developers to curb it without making the game too hard for casual players.
In the end, it is a single-player game. You are playing for yourself, and if you enjoy maximizing every moment then that is perfectly alright because:
1 - You bought the game
2 - It is only to your benefit
In the end I stuck with my first Merciful playthrough rather than continue with a new "Unforgiving" game for just this reason.
----
edited by Owen Wulf on 8/8/2014
--
 Owen Wulf's Profile  Lanzo Hoffman’s Profile  Lukas Uller’s Profile
|
|
|
+2
link
|
Guy Scrum
Posts: 197
8/10/2014
|
I'm surprised more people aren't agreeing with Atom. Unforgiving mode is clearly broken in its current state.
The problem is a matter of simple psychology. Many people will want the long-term thrill and sense of immersion that an unforgiving mode would give, but virtually everyone* gets upset when they make a bad decision or their hard work gets erased. Immediately after something bad happens, like, say, getting ripped apart by an angry lorn fluke, most people will wish that the bad thing could be undone. And it can be undone! One just has to reload the game. The short-term desire to have one's character not be dead and to avoid immense frustration will override the long-term desire to play in such a way that enhances immersion and gives choices meaningful consequences. And, unless there is a significant barrier to reloading the game, the player will satisfy the short-term desire and forgo the long-term pleasure. Right now (or at least the last time I played, which was a while ago) the barrier is almost non-existent.
I know how my own psychology works, and I know I won't have the will power to not reload a dead character, so playing in unforgiving mode failed in its intended goals (for me). The main effect that it had on my game was to make reloading a slightly more tedious process, while at the same time feeding my obsessive desire for trinkets. It's presence therefore made the game less fun than if it had been entirely absent.
I really hope that Failbetter gets unforgiving mode sorted out, as the last time I played the game it devolved into really tedious save-scumming really quickly.
*Of course, what do I know about everyone? I can really only extrapolate.
--
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Guy%20Scrum
Interactive fidgeting writer simulation
|
|
|
+2
link
|
WormApotheote
Posts: 725
8/9/2014
|
Mordaine Barimen wrote:
Or it could go the route of some of the classic roguelikes- upon loading a game the save file is deleted. Only upon saving and quitting out is a new one generated.
It's possible they're intending to implement something like that when the game isn't in beta and thus can be counted on to not, say, randomly crash or hang and not let you leave a screen.
--
No, I don't pull the Eater of Names.
|
|
|
+2
link
|
CameoAppearance
Posts: 146
8/10/2014
|
cjo wrote:
I don't care for the current implementation of unforgiving mode, but saving after every single decision seems like overkill. At that point, the save icon alone would get obnoxious! I think the rogue-like delete-save-on-load is the way to go. Of course players can use their own self-discipline to avoid rerolling, but the same can be said of every other major exploit, and games still try to fix or avoid them. IMO using rerolling to avoid death or alter other random outcomes while playing in Invictus mode is a major exploit which should be closed. Merciful mode is available for people who want to reroll.
On a related but slightly different topic, I think it would be pretty neat to have a mode which is halfway between merciful and unforgiving: one in which you can only save while in London. Of course, just like eschewing rerolling, any player can do this as a personal decision. But I think it would be nice to have the game itself support it.
The problem with delete-save-on-load is that you're absolutely screwed if your computer turns off unexpectedly, for instance because of a power outage, or Windows Update springing a reboot on you for an update you didn't know it was installing, or if you're like me and keep your power bar under the desk and you accidentally step on it. (This has happened to me more than once. I just don't have anywhere else to put the power bar.) Or, indeed, if the game crashes or locks up. These are exactly the type of situations that the ability to save your game is supposed to protect you from.
The only idea I have to cut down on the opportunity for save-scumming is to autosave whenever you use up Something Awaits You, since most scummable storylets are based on that quality. It wouldn't be quite as much of a lockdown as autosaving every time you take a step + deleting your save when you die.
I play in Merciful Mode anyway because I prefer being able to take risks with at least some sort of safety net (or straight-up test whether certain dire conditions will kill you and how), but I got the impression that Unforgiving Mode was mostly intended to make death unforgiving. And thus, the increased difficulty would result from having to be more careful with your skin instead of playing fast and loose with Terror reduction and fighting every lifeberg, pirate, and giant crab you spot.
edited by CameoAppearance on 8/10/2014
--
Dr Cameo “Scary Teeth” Thurlow, that toothy androgyne with the wickedly sharp curly quotes
|
|
|
+2
link
|
CameoAppearance
Posts: 146
8/10/2014
|
The only places where I've resorted to savescumming -- even in a mode where you can save whenever you want -- are that storylet with the various riddles (more often the 100-echo option that gets you a Live Specimen, but I have savescummed on the Great Riddle of Irem a couple times when I wanted quick cash; doing that too much seemed like a boring way to take all the challenge out of echo gain though) and getting a Khanate port report so I could obtain it with a Khanate Suspicion increase of 1 instead of having it shoot through the roof. I don't actually feel bad about the second one because the smallest possible Suspicion reduction will cost a ton of expensive coffee or difficult-to-obtain drowning-pearls, and your Suspicion goes up whether you succeed or fail, so I feel justified in cheating a little bit to keep it from increasing too fast.
You can't really savescum combat, because loading a save clears the map. If you're really determined to farm a certain enemy (for instance, lifeberg hunting) you have to zail around until they spawn and repeat the process if they kill you when you find them.
I don't even experience a temptation, let alone an irresistible temptation, to savescum for the best outcome on every event; it disrupts the flow of the game, and even if I was less devoted to maintaining immersion, it has the practical disadvantage of clearing away all the enemies I could have extracted valuable loot from. The monster thing admittedly might be a plus rather than a minus in Unforgiving Mode, when you'll have to start over completely if something that can kill you does in fact kill you, but in Merciful Mode it discourages reloading because you had a minor setback or failed a luck check or didn't get a rare success, because then if you want to get shiny loot from a somewhat challenging enemy you'll have to zail around the port for ages waiting for them to come back. (This is why I think that they should keep clearing-the-map-on-load thing at least for Merciful Mode; trying to fight a crab, dying of crab, and having the crab not be there when you respawn adds consequences to overconfident attempts at monster hunting.)
--
Dr Cameo “Scary Teeth” Thurlow, that toothy androgyne with the wickedly sharp curly quotes
|
|
|
+2
link
|
Nenjin
Posts: 171
8/9/2014
|
I'm a big believer in "Make the game you want to make, people will either play it that way or they won't."
In SS's case, they designed it this way so it must be part of their vision. If a player opts to cheat the system, that is their prerogative to do so and developers (of SP games) shouldn't necessarily go out of their way to prevent them unless it's a glaringly obvious exploit that even legit players struggle to avoid.
I've been a beneficiary of savescumming in SS. I do it in most games I can because my first real play of the game is to see where the thresholds are. THEN I go back and play it straight. And there's some parts of Sunless Sea I'd have never seen without that capability, whole lines of storylets I'd have never, EVER, explored without the ability to circumvent some things. So, I appreciate the ability to do so, and I don't really think FB should worry about me doing it. Cheating is cheating, and people essentially cheating themselves of the game experience FB wanted, to a degree, isn't something they should actively try to prevent. I won't blame them if they do, of course. There are reasons to clamp down on savescumming. But there's a reason most devs don't bother, and that's because to lock it down is to actively dissuade some players from playing the game at all.
|
|
|
+1
link
|
cjo
Posts: 13
8/10/2014
|
I don't care for the current implementation of unforgiving mode, but saving after every single decision seems like overkill. At that point, the save icon alone would get obnoxious! I think the rogue-like delete-save-on-load is the way to go. Of course players can use their own self-discipline to avoid rerolling, but the same can be said of every other major exploit, and games still try to fix or avoid them. IMO using rerolling to avoid death or alter other random outcomes while playing in Invictus mode is a major exploit which should be closed. Merciful mode is available for people who want to reroll.
On a related but slightly different topic, I think it would be pretty neat to have a mode which is halfway between merciful and unforgiving: one in which you can only save while in London. Of course, just like eschewing rerolling, any player can do this as a personal decision. But I think it would be nice to have the game itself support it.
|
|
|
+1
link
|
Atom Stratomsk
Posts: 44
8/10/2014
|
cjo wrote:
I don't care for the current implementation of unforgiving mode, but saving after every single decision seems like overkill. At that point, the save icon alone would get obnoxious! I think the rogue-like delete-save-on-load is the way to go. Of course players can use their own self-discipline to avoid rerolling, but the same can be said of every other major exploit, and games still try to fix or avoid them. IMO using rerolling to avoid death or alter other random outcomes while playing in Invictus mode is a major exploit which should be closed. Merciful mode is available for people who want to reroll.
On a related but slightly different topic, I think it would be pretty neat to have a mode which is halfway between merciful and unforgiving: one in which you can only save while in London. Of course, just like eschewing rerolling, any player can do this as a personal decision. But I think it would be nice to have the game itself support it.
That sounds interesting to say the least, it would mean that the only way to save progress would be to save and quit while going straight to the main menu would flat out delete your save. While I believe that an expanded checkpoint system (With invisible auto save UI to not be distracting) would be better, that is just as viable for a roguelike experience. A third mode where you can only save in Fallen London sounds a bit closer on the spectrum to Unforgiving in terms of difficulty but the idea of a third mode sounds pretty cool seeing as only two difficulty modes is a bit underwhelming.
edited by Atom Stratomsk on 8/10/2014
|
|
|
+1
link
|
Atom Stratomsk
Posts: 44
8/10/2014
|
Frenzgyn wrote:
Atom, i'm sorry if i seemed rude, it was not in my intentions, i've read all the post and i understand that of course it's not working as intended.
The point that i hardly disagree is another.
Abusing the option to reload the game removes the challenge completely from both modes.
And that's true, abusing every exploit removes the challenge, but, as i have said you could choose to use it or not, you are not forced in anyway to abuse that mechanic and that's the reason WHY it's not yet addressed and i think it's not a priority, because it's not directly gamebreaking or immersion breaking.
The difference between me and you is in this sentence:
I don't mind getting a useless token but I want the game to actually make it difficult for me to exploit it.
For me, it doesn't matter, if i want exploit something it's easy to edit two or three file in 1 minute and i have that particular things, but in my REAL gameplay i don't do it, because i like challegne etc, i've messed with gamefile just because i like to understand game mechanic and how the game keep track of variables and so one.
If i want the game to make difficult for me to exploit that, i would praise for encrypted gamefiles instead of plain text one.
Of course this is just an example, it's a different matter, 'cause we are talking of game MODE , not things outside of the game, but i would just like to explain better what i think.
I just don't need "cops" controlling if i'm playing legit or not, for me it make no difference, that's it.
Of course it's a matter of personal choice, i was just surprised that you guys takes this matter so seriously, nor that it's good or bad.
It may not be a such a big deal to you at least but when I look at what the developers included in SS so far such as RNG, Random events at different islands and areas, a combat system with enemies that use different and unpredictable attacks all points towards SS being a roguelike game. When I bought Sunless Sea on steam, that's what I wanted from it. A game like FTL that I enjoy way more than I should. If I had the option to avoid consequences in the exercise in frustration that is FTL then I would do it. The fact is however, that I don't know how to edit game files and that particular game doesn't make it nearly as easy to exploit its system as SS does. It matters to me because that feeling that every decision has a possible consequence is a very satisfying feeling I enjoyed very much from FTL despite the RNG nonsense that bothers me a bit in that game.
SS isn't nearly as difficult as FTL which is plain to see, obviously. When I saw that there was a Unforgiving mode for the first time I was excited about the idea that I can never go back on a decision. I was disappointed when I saw that it wasn't like Fallen London in that all your decisions are saved and which is strange to me seeing as how SS allows this sort of exploit. I don't know any roguelike games that allow cheating by simply exiting to the main menu.
"I just don't need "cops" controlling if i'm playing legit or not, for me it make no difference, that's it."
If anyone wants to play the game without risk, they should play on merciful mode, if not however, Unforgiving mode is for those like me that enjoy games that go out of their way to punish you(I.E. Roguelike). With these two modes alone, the reload exploit is unneeded for Merciful and plain bad for Unforgiving. Knowing that the game can be cheated so easily makes it so that I'm not having that same feel I have from other games like FTL. I know that if I accidentally encounter Mount Nomad for whatever reason and can't run away I will die and lose everything unless I exploit the game.
I still love the game, but it doesn't feel roguelike at all. I choose to not to use the exploit it unless I absolutely have to or if the RNG screws me on something with say a 96% chance on succeeding. Its hard not to use it when something that extreme happens. I guess my main complaint about the exploit is the fact that Unforgiving mode exists to make the game more difficult, yet fails to do so by making it incredibly easy to avoid consequences. It is my personal choice to exploit the game in those circumstances, you're absolutely right about that. However, answer me a couple questions please. If it's my personal choice to abuse autosaving in Unforgiving mode, why have a Unforgiving mode in the first place? Why have a mode that's supposed make the game roguelike, but fails to offer that roguelike feel by having the option to cheat the game even in very rare circumstances? Its because of that I'm not feeling from that mode what I did in games like FTL.
The simplest way to fix this problem I think even more then the autosave system I talked about, would be to make it impossible to go to the main menu without saving. That is a fix that is undeniably simple and wouldn't waste the developers time or resources. It isn't a big deal to most people I see, but to me I want a roguelike experience from Sunless Sea and right now it just isn't there for me.
edited by Atom Stratomsk on 8/10/2014
|
|
|
+1
link
|
Frenzgyn
Posts: 197
8/8/2014
|
That's exactly the point dear sir.
There is NOTHING preventing you to maximize EASILY everything in merciful mode, "Unforgiving" it's just meant to give you another personal level of challenge, nothing else, nor items, achievement (atm) or advantage in game or not, since it's also a single player game.
It's just stupid to play in "Unforgiving" mode and abuse it, it's nonsensical.
You're cheating yourself? :P
It's just another challenge out there, just like when you played coin-ops and try to beat a game with just one coin... if you cheat, what's the point?
However you've made me cry when you've said
"As rpg players, it is also our natural instinct to look for every exploit to get what we need."
That's not the spirit of Role Playing 
--
http://fallenlondon.com/Profile/Frenzgyn
|
|
|
+1
link
|