nyrk
Posts: 3
8/3/2014
|
Soo.. I "only" played for about a day now, but I am kind of disappointed by this game:
So far I have only been able to sustain myself by travelling to Venderbright and back. The trip seems to pay for itself, and I gain a little, if I encounter pirates on the way. As soon as I travel in other directions, I have to avoid enemies, because they all seem stronger than me. I do get some money from the admiral, but it doesnt nearly cover the travel costs (admittedly, it did for the visit to Station III, but it seems to be an exception). I could just go on ferrying Tomb Colonists to Venderbright until I have stronger weapons, but it just seems incredibly boring to do so, because it is always the same. Most of the forum threads I found seem to suggest similar ways to gain a little money.
I thought a game like this would be about making decisions and not about doing the same thing over and over..? Did I misunderstand that or is it only because the game isnt finished yet?
|
|
|
0
link
|
Mordaine Barimen
Posts: 670
8/5/2014
|
I have never left Unforgiving mode. Part of it is because I'm something of an old-school player when it comes to roguelikes and therefore feel it's only proper, and part of it is to test mechanics in a way that will remind me of the frustration level someone new might feel.
The fun of managing to outmanuever Mt. Nomad on various bits of scenery so that I could limp back to port with two Crew was an accomplishment and the sort of thing that helps take the sting out of all the YASDs along the way.
I can't go back to not knowing some of the tricks of playing the game, but the permadeath at least makes it so surprise calamities at least sting some, thus calling my attention to how it might feel to someone new. Admittedly, the game that I reluctantly retired for Emerald had gotten a dreadnaught, so I wasn't really playing from a newer perspective for a while, but I feel that not wanting to give up something that hard-earned isn't too unreasonable.
Still, there's nothing wrong with Merciful, especially while the game is in Beta. Please enjoy it that way, I just thought I'd give my thoughts on why I don't use Merciful mode.
--
I'm sorry, but due to policy clarifications, I will no longer be giving detailed mechanics advice on the forums.
If you still need help, try the IRC channel.
|
|
|
+3
link
|
Psst!
Posts: 99
8/11/2014
|
i feel ... like i'm caught in limbo. smart enough to avoid death, smart enough to know where & how to exploit the paltry cash offerings on hand ... but still stuck waiting and waiting for reluctant events or for that slow-slow accrual of cash to build up to a point where i can use it. a nether-realm of always being inbetween, until a threshold is broken and suddenly everything's a breeze.
and for a newer player? it's not just a matter of ramping it up on the learning curve. it's spending all that time to get 'somewhere' and then having to repeat and repeat and repeat with each accidental death or underestimation.
it's like trying to read "War and Peace" on the condition that, if you ever pause or put the book down ... you gotta start from the beginning all over again. plenty of twitchy games work on that premise. but something with legs that runs into the hours? oi vay ....!
|
|
|
+3
link
|
Brackenfish
Posts: 18
8/12/2014
|
The grindiness is in some ways a legacy issue from Fallen London, but while that's a grim necessity for browser games, Sunless Sea doesn't profit in any way by gating content behind repetitive drudgery.
I think there are already a bunch of steps in the right direction. Hunter's Keep provides an easy way to relieve Terror and Hunger early on, giving new players the leeway to explore and take risks. The way it vanishes is great both mechanically (jarringly forces you to use your map knowledge to strike out further) and thematically (you were sort of taking advantage of them, but with work, you can make partial amends). Similarly, the Khanate sets up a tough challenge for more map access that really does feel like earning passage through a totalitarian regime. Most of said map is a yawning void right now, but it works in concept.
The First Curator and the Uttershroom are also fun ways of encouraging exploration and experimentation. And they even interlock! So you can be hunting pirates or whatever as you drop off blemmigans, which also gets you the thing for the guy! It's like you're making multiple kinds of progress at once.
The problem is that, as it stands, the best ways to earn cash for clearing hurdles and making exploratory missions is just parking outside Whither and massacring lifebergs (not long ago, it was parking outside your doorstep and massacring pirates). And that's despite mechanics like the port reports, which try to promote making big trips.
I don't think anyone assumes the finished game will be like this, but I do support more medium-sized incentives to do interesting things while working towards larger goals.
|
|
|
+3
link
|
Diptych
Administrator
Posts: 3493
8/12/2014
|
Yurana wrote:
(and when starting out as a new player it does not help, that the game basically tells you, unforgiving mode is how it should be played)
Dispelling this perception would go a long way to solving this problem, I think. If playing on Completely Optional Exceptionally Difficult Mode isn't fun for you - especially for players who have just started out - then of course it isn't how the game should be played. Perhaps Unforgiving should be something we opt into when rolling a new character, rather than opting out once we've already begun.
--
Sir Frederick, the Libertarian Esotericist. Lord Hubris, the Bloody Baron.
Juniper Brown, the Ill-Fated Orphan. Esther Ellis-Hall, the Fashionable Fabian.
|
|
|
+3
link
|
Yurana
Posts: 14
8/12/2014
|
Nenjin wrote:
But once you're not shackled to needing to do profit runs, and can actually explore, I think the game reaches maximum fun at that point. It's why I don't play it hardcore, the ability to roll back a poor choice or result in SS lets me get somewhere, instead of further increasing the grind by adding lots of failures.
I think that is my main problem right now with the game: That the grindiness does not match up well with (almost) complete wipe of your progress in unforgiving mode (and when starting out as a new player it does not help, that the game basically tells you, unforgiving mode is how it should be played). I don't mind spending time building up wealth, getting better weapons to get ready to explore. I do mind wasting 10+ hours of my time building up, just to die after one unfortunate fight or wrong choice and having to start over.
--
A most mysterious individual.
New acquaintances are always welcome.
|
|
|
+2
link
|
Nenjin
Posts: 171
8/11/2014
|
I think people just aren't prepared for the pace of the game. Having to save a significant amount of resources to zail into the unknown and maybe find something isn't necessarily everyone's cup of tea. Running a profit route 30 or 40 times to get the resources you need for a better ship doesn't necessarily occur to people who think the game is supposed to be about exploration and trading.
I like "long haul" games personally. Sunless Sea has routines with little bits of randomness and spice to keep it fresh. But it is a long grind and if you don't find routinized gameplay fun, Sunless Sea is a seemingly frustrating game because resource consumption and managing it is something that you end up having to plan for, and grind against.
I can say that after getting a new ship and some spending money, the game feels a lot more open. You still worriedly watch some trips cost you echoes instead of earning them, and have to learn to take pure losses just for the sake of exploration. But once you're not shackled to needing to do profit runs, and can actually explore, I think the game reaches maximum fun at that point. It's why I don't play it hardcore, the ability to roll back a poor choice or result in SS lets me get somewhere, instead of further increasing the grind by adding lots of failures.
edited by Nenjin on 8/11/2014
|
|
|
+2
link
|
papa_spielt
Posts: 4
8/5/2014
|
@ nyrk:
I think a very good way to have some fun with Sunless Sea is to embrace failure.
Yes, that is not quite an easy task, I know. But it is rewarding and will keep you from sticking to close to Fallen London. Head for the unknown - and fail!
I recommend this: Read some nice stories by H.P. Lovecraft, "The Nameless City" for example, and enjoy the shivers running down your spine when Lovecrafts heroes loose their minds while facing the nameless terror that arises from the dark corners of the universe.
Having done so, go and play Sunless Sea. You best play at night when everything is dark and silent. And when you steer your boat through eternal darkness, on to ultimate failure, consider yourself one of these tragic heroes in the lovecraftian tradition!
I don´t know if this will work for you, but for me it works just fine.
In my opinion Sunless Sea is not about winning but about experiencing a dark story of madness and doom.
Sometimes I wish, there was kind of a Captains Log, so that I might write down the images that spring to my mind while fighting monsters and terror. Now that would make a real tale of the zea and a nice heirloom to my next captain...
|
|
|
+2
link
|
andyguest
Posts: 2
8/10/2014
|
I'm about ready to quit on Sunless Sea. Advancing is so slow and everything is unforgiving. It was bad enough before the map randomisation.
I am progressing, but it is far too slowly to be satisfying. Exploring uncharted areas is horribly unforgiving, the cost in terror and fuel means at best I can go out, discover a single location and then head back to London for some grinding to get in a position to set off again. I have managed to upgrade my weapon but that is it, I can't imagine having the cash to upgrade my lodgings or my boat, I just managed to find Mt Palmerstone but couldn't get back to London to repair and take on fresh crew.
I know folks like the game, I want to like it but being told "it gets fun eventually" is pretty damning. A game should be fun from the start! If I were to make suggestions to the devs it would be that the risks vs rewards is too far skewed against reward. It is far too easy to lose all your Echoes on a single event/trip and it will take so long to build them back up afterwards. I'd suggest that fuel & supplies should be cheaper, profit margins on trading should be higher (or at least every location should be buying and selling goods).
I'm off to try hunting lifebergs, sounds more exciting than transporting coffins.
|
|
|
+2
link
|
CameoAppearance
Posts: 146
8/11/2014
|
papa_spielt wrote:
@ nyrk:
I think a very good way to have some fun with Sunless Sea is to embrace failure.
Yes, that is not quite an easy task, I know. But it is rewarding and will keep you from sticking to close to Fallen London. Head for the unknown - and fail!
Fail better, one might say.
--
Dr Cameo “Scary Teeth” Thurlow, that toothy androgyne with the wickedly sharp curly quotes
|
|
|
+2
link
|
Master Polarimini
Posts: 310
8/4/2014
|
Yes, I agree that some work could be put into a tutorial. At the beginning some things are confusing - for example, the importance of fuel, terror, what the various stats actually do, etc., should be clarified better, and give some tricks on how to do it.
I don't think the game punishes you for exploring. I think exploring is scary because it feels like you're jumping into darkness - and it should be! But this is an exploring game so one should try it. I remember my very first game, I was so cautious and I was basically afraid to go beyond the Vanderbight-Hunter's Keep-Mutton Island line, but then I tried my luck and it worked. Sure, I lost a couple (well, more than a couple) of lives but every time I learned more stuff, started to know the places and I could go farther every time, which of course created a virtuous cycle. In the last games I always managed to have a steady increase of income. My most recent one started after the emerald release, and even if I had quite a bad luck in the map shuffling (three tiles full of nothing except salt lions in front of London, Vanderbight and Whither) I manage quite well, so my first attempts to understand the game must have paid off.
I think you shouldn't be afraid of testing various possibilities and routes, in order to learn how to optimize terror, fuel and supplies and to know the various destinations. If you die, it's not so serious.
And do not play unforgiving!
--
Devices workshop opening soon...
Follow my story at http://www.fallenlondon.com/Profile/Master~Polarimini
|
|
|
+2
link
|
lady ciel
Posts: 2548
8/4/2014
|
The map shuffling is going to take some getting used to and I understand that coming to the game completely cold is difficult and having people who have been playing for some time saying that it isn't that bad could be annoying but the only way to learn at the moment is to play
A couple of hours ago I started a brand new game to try out the map shuffling for myself and to see how difficult I find the early game. Of course I can't forget what I have learned in previous games, also I play merciful, and I have been lucky. My first visit to Mutton Island resulted in a Judgement Egg and one of my three battles with Lifebergs gave a Captivating Treasure. That gave enough money to buy a decent weapon and leave money to pay for most stories I might come across (hiring Officers in London, Salt Lions, getting the Cook when I am lucky in Venderbight; though not enough to save-scum the riddle) and to restock my ship and deal with terror.
So I left the coast and it turns out that my next random place to the East Of Venderbight is the Salt Lions and I have enough money to take advantage of that storylet. So i will probably do that for a while in order to get enough money to fully equip the ship. Then I will need to find what else is out there and the place the Admiral wants me to go but I'm going to take it slowly.
So with experience and a lot of luck the game can be easy at the beginning
--
ciel
Sorry RL means I am not a very active player at the moment. No social actions unless you are prepared to wait and definitely no sparring or other mult-action things.
No Calling Cards or boxed cats please. Will take dupes on the affluent photographers. Other social invitations welcome. Parabolan Kittens usually available, send me an in-game social action saying you want one and I will get one to you as soon as possible.
storynexus name - reveurciel
|
|
|
+1
link
|
MatthewtheMagnificent
Posts: 62
8/5/2014
|
I know it deeply dents ones pride to hang up the Invictus medal, but if you're new to the game, don't know the map and are pretty much steam powered beastie food, just save. Save before exploring so it's not the end of the world to steam into the great black nothing by accident. Save on trade routes so running into frigates, trimarans and the nomad won't force you to start over and avoid them after the reload.
It takes away a lot of the paranoia unforgiving creates, hell I didn't dare steaming north because for the first 4 hours I believed the cute snow animation to be the waxwind.
Just relax, take it easy and it'll get easier, cash will start rolling in, you'll buy bigger guns and better ships and before long you'll have charted every island, slain every beasty, own a big ass ship and take a McDuckian swim in that pool full of echos at your mansion. Only took me a total of 165 save games 
|
|
|
+1
link
|
hyperion122
Posts: 31
8/4/2014
|
The basis of sunless sea is exploration so what I say to you sir is to explore and have fun. You can go pretty far without worrying about too high level monsters. What I suggest for you is to stop by at Hunters Keep and play that story as it is fruitful and intriguing ( as well as a bit creepy)
If you have any special crew like the haunted doctor or the genial magician play their stories as they can die and you can lose their cool story options.
If you want money I suggest also going down to the channels where the zea goes into the surface ( it's directly south of london just keep going until you hit it) their you will get a secret from the game or something like that which you can trade to the admiral.
Also go to the salt lions which are like directly across from london past the Orange line (their pretty far) and get their special trade item ( can't remember what sorry) which sells welll in London.
This is how I started by shipping and trading until I got better stuff. Also warning try to avoid going past the tomb colonies until your well equipped and as well as past the iron republic ( farther south than the channels I previously mentioned)
Most of all just EXPLORE and dying is only part of the fun you seek of, tho is so cliche but you learn from past mistakes it's true you get to go back and do it all over again or if your playing merciful you don't have to worry about dying just save before leaving each port
edited by hyperion122 on 8/4/2014
--
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/hyperion122
|
|
|
+1
link
|
nameless
Posts: 237
8/4/2014
|
Wow man take a chill pill. 0_0.
--
The only god of the zee is nameless.
|
|
|
+1
link
|
Master Polarimini
Posts: 310
8/4/2014
|
genesis wrote:
I don't know how the financial model of Fallen London works but I would hazard a guess that it's quite different from the more mainstream distribution model that Sunless Sea is clearly intending to rely on. I hope that the developpers are not relying on the heavy enfranchisement of FL players to make SS succeed.
I really like this game and feel it has a lot of potential and despite many many frustrations I am taking it at face value that this is an "early-access version" and things will get better. Because if they don't then the kind of posts I keep seeing on these forums make me suspect the game won't do very well commercially.
Lots of posters here are clearly very passionate, enfranchised and invested. Which is great. But most players will not suffer this much frustration in the early game. Early game is intended to hook and draw in a new player in and no amount of comments along the lines of "this game rewards trial and error" and "you have to be daring" is likely to change that. While all of these features are what makes SS what it is, the early game must be an exception if it's to succeed commercially longer term. Not only does there need to be more things to do and ways to earn Echos (which I believe *will* be the case in the full release) but there needs to be a lot more sign-posting and hand-holding very early on (I am emphasize the "very" to pre-empt indignant response from those who think there are plenty of easy ways to start)
I'm sorry but I don't understand (or, dare I say, accept) this reasoning. If you want a game that takes you by hand for every minimum step and guides through obstacles 10 cm high, perhaps you should go to Facebook and play Zynga games - with all the possible respect for Zynga. (I'm speaking to a generic "you", not to "you genesis")
Sunless Sea is not such an impossibly difficult game that makes you rage in frustration for hours. It's a moderately difficult game with some things that you have to learn how to manage (terror first of all, then fuel) before being really successful, but if you do not have the patience to spend 2-3 hours to do it, perhaps it's not the game for you. Also because you should have been captured by the setting and the atmosphere by then.
I would say that learning how to deal with the first obstacles is an integral part of the game (of any game, IMO). I really really hope there is not much more sign-posting or hand-holding than there is now. And I'm saying it not as a FL aficionado, but as a gamer.
--
Devices workshop opening soon...
Follow my story at http://www.fallenlondon.com/Profile/Master~Polarimini
|
|
|
+1
link
|
Psst!
Posts: 99
8/11/2014
|
Zee-Bat wrote:
Hmm, it seems people either say the game is way too easy or way too hard. I'm definitely biased but I like it the way it is, sure some parts could be better but this is work in progress and this game has never been a trading game nor will it ever be as the devs have stated.
it's the imbalance of it all.
in one game i get great random events like rain in a monsoon.
other game? you'd swear it doesn't exist, no matter how hard you hit that port.
map shuffles the Salties next to London? no probs ...
other maps .... it's grind-grind-grind-away ... and some people do love grinding.
but most other folks want to move on already; do not enjoy days of mindless repetition.
and the great irony is that for a game that aspires to avoid trade for the promotion of exploration ...
it's difficult to scratch that exploratory itch because your butt's been locked in grinding hell.
or random event lock-out hell.
or random "the admiral / bruiser / missions always send me to the same places" hell.
if trade is not the propellant, commerce not the grease that makes the engine's turn, and the mission story is the only force behind which compulsion lies, then that fragment of the puzzle needs some serious uppage in the wattage. otherwise, time spent is in the gathering of things and not in the use of them.
edited by Psst! on 8/11/2014
|
|
|
+1
link
|
andyguest
Posts: 2
8/11/2014
|
Psst! wrote:
it's the imbalance of it all.
in one game i get great random events like rain in a monsoon.
other game? you'd swear it doesn't exist, no matter how hard you hit that port.
map shuffles the Salties next to London? no probs ...
other maps .... it's grind-grind-grind-away ... and some people do love grinding.
but most other folks want to move on already; do not enjoy days of mindless repetition.
and the great irony is that for a game that aspires to avoid trade for the promotion of exploration ...
it's difficult to scratch that exploratory itch because your butt's been locked in grinding hell.
or random event lock-out hell.
or random "the admiral / bruiser / missions always send me to the same places" hell.
if trade is not the propellant, commerce not the grease that makes the engine's turn, and the mission story is the only force behind which compulsion lies, then that fragment of the puzzle needs some serious uppage in the wattage. otherwise, time spent is in the gathering of things and not in the use of them.
edited by Psst! on 8/11/2014
This strikes a chord with me. Adding trade goods to every port wouldn't turn Sunless Sea into a trading game, the profits don't need to be huge, it just needs something to help players along. As it is, for me, exploring is something I have to build up to and most of the time it will wipe out those built up resources for little if any gain. If I'm lucky I can limp back to London and start building stuff up again.
Lowering the costs of fuel and supplies would help (though it is really fuel rather than supplies since they can be caught at sea). When the few ports that do sell fuel sell it at two or three times the London price and a journey is struggling to break even then I often simply cannot afford to buy fuel. With so little trade going on most times I set out to sea with almost no echoes and little chance of picking any up, which limits the refuelling opportunities. Opening up the cash flow to keep the ships moving, even if it meant raising the upgrade prices, would be nice.
It'd be nice too if there were places where ships could be repaired, crew could be recruited and terror reduced other than London. I've seen a few terror reducing options but they tend to be a bit unreliable/chancy. Being stuck way out from London with less than half crew is a misery that nobody should be put through. There needs to be some way to get extra crew, or some other penalty to having a low crew than the speed hit.
I'm sure there is a great game in here, it is just so frustrating to get at just now.
|
|
|
+1
link
|
Master Polarimini
Posts: 310
8/11/2014
|
I would like to stress that for me the game never "got fun eventually", it was fun since the beginning, with ups and downs of course and considering it needs still some tweaking.
I never felt such huge frustration that some commenters write about. Yes, at the beginning it is not easy: fuel tends to disappear faster than expected, terror to rise too much, combat needs some attempts to get the hold of, and there is no obvious way to make money at the beginning.
I was not that shocked though, because I put all those problems as part of the learning curve of the game, and indeed in my experience this was exactly the case. Now that I know the game mechanics and the various locations more, all the new games I started recently were quite smooth. And it didn't take hundred of hours.
Also I somehow manage to avoid the excessive grinding. Yes, there are some routes you travel more than others, but never obsessively. But it can also be due to my way of playing. Of course there must be people that go back and forth dozens of times to the Salt Lions until they have buckets of Echoes, but I don't like that. This means I'm raising my money slowlier but I think I have more fun in the process.
I don't want to say people have no right to be frustrated, but just that's not my experience of the game. I gave myself time to learn, though.
And I also agree that some aspects of the game definitely need some revision, I also think trade should be expanded - which can be done without turning Sunless Sea into a trade game!
--
Devices workshop opening soon...
Follow my story at http://www.fallenlondon.com/Profile/Master~Polarimini
|
|
|
+1
link
|