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Straightforward failure Messages in this topic - RSS

æsc
æsc
Posts: 73

3/24/2014
Okay, so I know that straightforward challenges still have a slight risk of failure, but I've failed more of them than I've succeeded in over the last couple of days. It's starting to seem a little weird that I'm having a better success rate with 65% challenges than 100% ones. Did something get tweaked that made this chance greater lately, or am I just astonishingly and profoundly unlucky?

--
Dr Cecily Morgan
an inescapable, sagacious, irresistible and breathtaking lady.
Devoted Scholar of the Correspondance, Author, and Excellent Dancer.

No photographers please. Most pleasant socials, invitations and calling cards welcome. Happy to accept Guest of Honour invites to salons looking for Authors.
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Lumyire
Lumyire
Posts: 167

4/11/2014
Straightforward green or straightforward white? If it's green then it's just the RNG god playing with you. If it's white then you need to get worried.

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https://www.fallenlondon.com/profile/Lumyire
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David Lombard
David Lombard
Posts: 79

4/12/2014
Confirmation bias seems to really enjoy the company of RNGs. Though it is not everyone's cup of tea, I suggest tracking your results over a very long trial.

RNGs are streaky, it's true. Good streaks don't tend to stick in one's craw, and likewise don't generate many forum threads.

--
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/David~Lombard
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Dawson
Dawson
Posts: 137

4/14/2014
While I do share the sentiment, to a point, that the extent to which luck factors into certain actions regardless of progress (e.g. Master Thieves failing low level Shadowy-action-type lucky checks) is a bit counter-intuitive at times, I do tend to heavily favor responses of the kind that the ever-Spockean Babelfishwars has been offering.

There is most certainly nothing wrong with being absurdly lucky or unlucky on the programming end of things—and even if there is something wrong with the RNG program at the theoretical level, the point is still moot as it relates to the topic at hand; since your "good luck" or "ill luck" in reality overlaps 1-to-1 and onto with the results returned by the game, I don't see how it matters much whether the RNG literally simulates the condition of absolute randomosity in reality. As long as it's a comparable simulation, the task of the RNG is being carried out effectively.

An additional point: the fact that confirmation bias is in play here should not be debatable: case in point, as has been stated, no one seriously complains about being unusually lucky in practice. And even if you're feeling inclined to do so, it's still not a counterargument to the above.

Additionally additionally: I particularly want to condemn this anti-feedback-submission attitude: the argument that the model 'works for them', and therefore they're not likely to change it is exactly the reason you shouldsubmit feedback—if you've got something to say about the game, for good or ill, you ought to—this is how things get changed. It's really the whole point of the feedback system in the first place. Too, the insinuation that they wouldn't change it because it makes them money, in addition to being fantastically unlikely, seems unnecessarily cynical to the point of being offensive.

-----

A final word: I don't want to come off as either condescending or brown-nosed here—I'm not in FBG's corner by default (though if one had to throw their lot in with a company on faith, they probably couldn't do much better than FBG, given their tremendous commitment to ethical business practice): it does bother me, though, to see dubious arguments given such weight. Not to be antagonistic to xKiv, since he hardly deserves it, but e.g. the point about 'there's always someone better' is literally a self-defeating non-argument. I'm also not sure how the impossibility of human omniscience is relevant to anything.

<3

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Shadowhand
Shadowhand
Posts: 197

4/11/2014
Logic time: if a random number generator produced consistent results, it wouldn't be random.
And thank you, Flyte, for drawing my attention to what might be the most amusing mod responses on the forum.

--
Twitter: @mortshadow - Fallen London: Shadowhand

Benjamin Gabbay, a silly and crafty individual of mysterious and indistinct intentions
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babelfishwars
babelfishwars
Administrator
Posts: 1152

4/16/2014
xKiv wrote:
Umbrellas at six paces?
I SHALL WIN. Dad gave me a golf umbrella of golf umbrellas. The kind Spacemarine9 would use in the game of games. I'm embarrassed to use it in the rain as it can cover an entire pavement and thus as I'm not 6'6"+ has a tendency to block the way for anyone coming the opposite direction. It's a monstrosity. I can probably thwop you with it at 8 paces. Sod 6.

I like winning. Excellent.
edited by babelfishwars on 4/16/2014

--
Mars, God of Fish; Leaning Tower of Fish
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David Lombard
David Lombard
Posts: 79

4/13/2014
cinderfallen wrote:
Hey David, confirmation bias doesn't come into play here at all. (Assuming you were replying to my comment



Hi - I was not replying to anybody in particular. I get frustrated when, say, I need a quick 250 candles and 3 actions gets me 112. Happened today. But in a game like FL, I figure pain and agony are a feature, not a bug. I don't think this *is* a casual game. It's a little, outré, no?
edited by mblamar on 4/13/2014

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http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/David~Lombard
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æsc
æsc
Posts: 73

3/24/2014
Flyte wrote:
In the interests of transparency, here's a link to a discussion in which the causes of player misfortune are laid bare.


Aha, I knew the NSA and the rats were in on it somehow!

So be it--I am fairly used to having appalling luck (I almost never, ever, do the luck challenges for that reason, unless the unlucky option gets you something as well) but it seemed to be a bit more than usual lately, so seemed worth checking. I'll just go sacrifice a goat or two and see if it improves wink

--
Dr Cecily Morgan
an inescapable, sagacious, irresistible and breathtaking lady.
Devoted Scholar of the Correspondance, Author, and Excellent Dancer.

No photographers please. Most pleasant socials, invitations and calling cards welcome. Happy to accept Guest of Honour invites to salons looking for Authors.
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babelfishwars
babelfishwars
Administrator
Posts: 1152

4/11/2014
cinderfallen wrote:
That thread really didn't answer any questions, though. And it looks like Alexis further shut down discussion right when it got interesting. A lot of the programming stuff is way over my head, but the last person xKiv seems to be on to something when he says that randomisation isn't the same as probability. There's definitely something hinky with Fallen London's RNG.


Don't think he really did. He said if you want to talk programming that's unrelated to FL, take it somewhere other than a FL based forum. Which is fair enough, really. If you really want to continue: I suppose programming chat would work in the Off Topic boards. But really - it's programmers arguing with programmers about a hypothetical problem that's already been answered as 'not a problem'. Someone on a streak of bad luck (no one complains about streaks of good luck) assumes there's something wrong with the RNG, Alexis says they're using industry standard. You can continue to believe there's something wrong - but either the industry standard is broken, FB don't know what they're doing re RNG, or you're wrong. Since I'm not a dev/programmer, I'm not going to automatically *know* that the industry standard is right, and the heartbleed thing shows that kind of thing does go wrong - but it is far more likely that you're on a streak of bad luck, than the industry standard is broken (or FB have been blagging it this long). xKiv seems to think he might be a better programmer than Alexis and his team, or that the FailBetter team might have missed something. He might be, they might have. Unlikely, especially as they'll have seen the posts and the follow up, and if they'd have applied would have applied them. And talked about it, in all likelihood. FB own up to mistakes, and fix things - 'tis part of why we love them.

There HAVE been instances of a tricky to find RNG roll-type bug - e.g. the Wii Flag. http://asheron.wikia.com/wiki/Wi_Flag
(Ah, now THERE was a game.)

But really? After him coming in and talking about what they use and explicitly stating it's not a problem, it's just the sheer numbers of people playing mean that statistically some people HAVE to have long streaks of bad luck (ditto good) - it's a little presumptive to come right back and say 'you're the game dev, but you could be wrong and your work is broken'. You don't think Alexis will have checked all this, given their entire game runs off rolls by the RNG? It's in their interests to have it running smoothly.

Of course. It's far more interesting to think there's a conspiracy. There probably is. Now ... ;-)
edited by babelfishwars on 4/11/2014

--
Mars, God of Fish; Leaning Tower of Fish
+2 link
xKiv
xKiv
Posts: 846

4/14/2014
Dawson wrote:
There is most certainly nothing wrong with being absurdly lucky or unlucky on the programming end of things—and even if there is something wrong with the RNG program at the theoretical level, the point is still moot as it relates to the topic at hand; since your "good luck" or "ill luck" in reality overlaps 1-to-1 and onto with the results returned by the game, I don't see how it matters much whether the RNG literally simulates the condition of absolute randomosity in reality. As long as it's a comparable simulation, the task of the RNG is being carried out effectively.

It doesn't matter when you are doing randomized interactive story.
It begins to matter when you are doing a game, because players want to be treated fairly (counterpoint: fallen london is supposed to be about making the characters miserable, and since we identify with our characters, it's about making *us* miserable too)..
It matters a lot when you start showing exact percentages, because if you aren't really careful, you are promising something you can't guarantee. (but this is more of an argument against showing exact percentages than anything else).

Not to be antagonistic to xKiv, since he hardly deserves it,


I first read that as ".. he already deserves it,". It was confusing.

but e.g. the point about 'there's always someone better' is literally a self-defeating non-argument. I'm also not sure how the impossibility of human omniscience is relevant to anything.


I saw it as relevant as a tangentially supporting point to being silly while defending my "honor" against "accusations" of maybe thinking I am a better programmer than someone whose work I have never witnessed.
(I could have also just said that I am sure FBG can run circles around me in some other programming topic)

--
https://www.fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/xKiv - a witchful, percussive, dangermous and shadowry scholar of coexplodence, hopsidirean, and walker of fallen kitties.
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babelfishwars
babelfishwars
Administrator
Posts: 1152

4/14/2014
xKiv wrote:
babelfishwars wrote:
Bring your goat! And a second goat!


Phew. For a second I was worried you would want me to bring *my* second goat. Because, I must admit, I only own the one. And it's not even über.


I'm going to have to 'borrow' some goats. I have none. Much sadness. If no one 'lends' me any, I'll bleat till your one backs away disconcerted.

Edit: forgot the insinuation quotes on lends. I mean 'has any around for me to nick', obv.
edited by babelfishwars on 4/14/2014

--
Mars, God of Fish; Leaning Tower of Fish
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cinderfallen
cinderfallen
Posts: 16

4/16/2014
Snowskeeper wrote:
A side-note: you're assuming that it's unreasonable for a Master Thief to occasionally fail a simple heist, or to have a run of bad luck. It isn't. It would be unreasonable to expect an individual to always succeed at a task, regardless of their skill level; hell, most humans can't even put one foot in front of the other successfully 100% of the time.

  • Nope, I'm saying if a "Master Thief" is failing to open a simple lock 10 times in a row, maybe she shouldn't be called a master thief.

  • +2 link
    xKiv
    xKiv
    Posts: 846

    4/16/2014
    babelfishwars wrote:
    I have a few, but only in real life. Not sure how I get them into digital format. Will ponder this one.


    I have held a sword (used to belong to a great-grandfather), once, 20 years ago. It was short, dirty, and heavy.

    Umbrellas at six paces?

    --
    https://www.fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/xKiv - a witchful, percussive, dangermous and shadowry scholar of coexplodence, hopsidirean, and walker of fallen kitties.
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    Snowskeeper
    Snowskeeper
    Posts: 575

    4/15/2014
    A side-note: you're assuming that it's unreasonable for a Master Thief to occasionally fail a simple heist, or to have a run of bad luck. It isn't. It would be unreasonable to expect an individual to always succeed at a task, regardless of their skill level; hell, most humans can't even put one foot in front of the other successfully 100% of the time.


  • --
    S.F., a midnight midnighter and invisible eminence. Impossible to locate them, personally, but there are dead drops and agents.
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    babelfishwars
    babelfishwars
    Administrator
    Posts: 1152

    4/14/2014
    Dawson wrote:
    the ever-Spockean Babelfishwars


    I am very happy.

    You have made my Monday. I'm going to sit here thinking about hugging Nimoy.

    --
    Mars, God of Fish; Leaning Tower of Fish
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    Theus
    Theus
    Posts: 311

    4/13/2014
    There have been tweaks to RNG streaks in other games, notably World of Warcraft. It's not easy, but it's possible. Relevant link:
    http://www.shacknews.com/article/62807/sid-meier-and-rob-pardo

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    http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Hefty~Harrison
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    Lumyire
    Lumyire
    Posts: 167

    4/12/2014
    Helen Demeter wrote:
    Lumyire wrote:
    Straightforward green or straightforward white? If it's green then it's just the RNG god playing with you. If it's white then you need to get worried.


    Oh! I always wondered why sometimes 'straightforward' was green here or white there. That's an interesting tidbit of information to know.


    Yeah, it's a pretty recent change, and a very useful one too! Otherwise, you could always click the ? icon to see exactly what percentage you have, straightforward could be 99% and you are just unlucky. If it's 100% success, then it's white.



  • --
    https://www.fallenlondon.com/profile/Lumyire
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    babelfishwars
    babelfishwars
    Administrator
    Posts: 1152

    4/12/2014
    cinderfallen wrote:
    Why was I interested when normally I duck numbers like they're made of death? I really dislike the game design in FL around the RNG and wanted to learn more about it.

    Mostly, it doesn't make narrative sense. I'm a Master Thief and I'm losing a Very Modest skill check literally 10 times in a row? This happens often enough that it's frustrating. I'm losing out on precious action points to explore more of the game!

    Yes, they may be using an industry standard RNG, but I feel there could be more sophisticated filtering/framework/design built around it to produce a statistically-sound system which has

    - less frustrating, more intuitive gameplay
    - integrated narrative

    That's why I was intrigued when xKiv was talking about the different reset duration options, such as during the course of 1 session or globally across servers (totally mangling the actual terms, but I'm writing out the gist).

    Because if you're flipping a coin heads or tails, the odds are 50/50 but in an infinite timeline it's statistically "correct" for the coin to come up heads 1 million times in a row as long as it ends up tails 1 million times somewhere in the tail end of infinity. It just would be a hell of a lot less fun playing with this time table.

    And regarding this line: [ it's a little presumptive to come right back and say 'you're the game dev, but you could be wrong and your work is broken' ] Yes....? And we are the game players, who like the game enough to discuss it among like-minded fans, both the parts we like and the parts we dislike, with constructive comments. No one is infallible, as far I'm aware?
    And the more I think about it, I really don't think there NEEDS to be people who have such long (good or bad) luck streaks. There could be tweaks made to alleviate the issue that obviously a lot of people are having.


    Then what you need is to offer Feedback, which you can do here: http://community.failbettergames.com/topic7596-feedback.aspx

    However, be aware that what you're asking for is to have both good and bad luck (both, obviously, for balance and 'realism' {hygiene quotes as good/bad luck streaks happen in real life}) streaks tamed. I suspect that without insight into the minds of gamers it would be difficult to tell whether this would upset or please the majority, but if a comparison with gamblers could be made, reducing risk may actually reduce enjoyment. Depends on the type of player is in the majority of FL players, I suspect. Those who'll have come from board games will be used to evil dice streaks. True, doesn't mean they'll tolerate them, though.

    I also suspect it would be a deal of work and increase load, as to prevent streaks with certainty you'd have to track each individual's rolls for x number of rolls each time, and not just compare the number value of each outcome, but also compare to the gameplay result (some results might be 'lucky' if low, some high - SN means you can put nasty things on a lucky roll if you wish) to ensure that the positive outcome goes with breaking an unlucky streak and so on.

    Do offer feedback, but do so based on the knowledge that the current system is deliberate rather than broken, so it's clear you're talking about design rather than a bug - but if they haven't already looked at how to optimise enjoyment for the majority of their players, they're fools - and they've never come across as such. So I'm not suggesting you hold out much hope! :-)

    If you want to continue talking programming/design - do PM the guys in the thread linked to above, or start a thread here: http://community.failbettergames.com/forum11-off-topic-the-surface.aspx but keep it not-FL related/general, as that's the Off Topic forum - as you've already had a response from FB: they are aware of how the game works, and it's working as designed. They've planned the streaks in.
    edited by babelfishwars on 4/12/2014

    --
    Mars, God of Fish; Leaning Tower of Fish
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    Flyte
    Flyte
    Administrator
    Posts: 671

    3/24/2014
    æsc wrote:
    Okay, so I know that straightforward challenges still have a slight risk of failure, but I've failed more of them than I've succeeded in over the last couple of days. It's starting to seem a little weird that I'm having a better success rate with 65% challenges than 100% ones. Did something get tweaked that made this chance greater lately, or am I just astonishingly and profoundly unlucky?
    In the interests of transparency, here's a link to a discussion in which the causes of player misfortune are laid bare.
    +1 link




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