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babelfishwars
babelfishwars
Administrator
Posts: 1138

29 days ago
Skinnyman wrote:
Hermania Granger wrote:
You can ban my forum profiles, but I need reactivate my game profile! After two month of normal playing I have bug that need log out. But I cannot log in back!
Is that you, Mr. Candles? smile
edited by Skinnyman on 10/23/2019



I saw them. Thank you. (But best just use the report to moderator function, so that if I delete them, you don't look like you've been hallucinating posts.)

--
Mars, God of Fish; Leaning Tower of Fish
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Skinnyman
Skinnyman
Posts: 1912

29 days ago
babelfishwars wrote:
I saw them. Thank you. (But best just use the report to moderator function, so that if I delete them, you don't look like you've been hallucinating posts.)
I wasn't really sure that it was Mr. Candles, but I did quote just in case something like this happens! smile
Not the first time I reply to a deleted comment!

--
I am accepting Plant battles, Neath's Mysteries card, Starveling Cats and boxed cats.
No suppers, no second chances gain and no need to cure my menaces!
ESs items and quality requirements sheet
Achievement list if you're feeling bored!
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Optimatum
Optimatum
Posts: 3540

28 days ago
Ah, it's that time of year again. New and intriguing companions! New art everywhere! Seven cryptically-named characters! Spirit of Hallowmas returns! Grinding via menaces! New Hallowmas content is always appreciated.

That said, I'm disappointed that not only does getting every companion require Fate, but the prices haven't budged. Detaching the story from Confessions is a welcome change, so we can both collect and get the full narrative experience, as is the new (and non-Notability) grind. But requiring Fate to collect everything feels wrong when the mechanically optimal method is to just... wait a year. Today I bought three companions from last year, saving over half the Fate, and the experience was just disappointing. Sure, Slivvy is alright, but these companions were tailored specifically to last year's characters—and buying them outside that temporal context, with input from an uninvolved urchin instead of characters with personal stakes, made their stories substantially less interesting. So for the new companions, it's a choice between waiting a year and saving 95 Fate (if prices stay the same) or experiencing the new content in full. And honestly? I don't think a couple more pieces of text are worth it.

I'm just baffled that Failbetter puts so much effort into creating fantastic content, then prices it in a way that disincentivizes reading it. Though I'm not sure what the solution would be, besides making Confessions cost less Fate. Maybe an expensive way to buy Confessions with Spirit of Hallowmas?
edited by Optimatum on 10/24/2019

--
Optimatum, a ruthless and merciful gentleman. No plant battles, Affluent Photographer requests, or healing offers; all other social actions welcome.

Want a sip of Cider? Just say hi!

PM me for information enigmatic or Fated. Though the forum please, not FL itself.
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Skinnyman
Skinnyman
Posts: 1912

27 days ago
Probably because the companions are mandatory nor are they required for anything.

We are talking about a game which kind of encourages trading results and echoes so it makes sense to do with the companions. Everyone is aware that the Fate used this Hallowmas is to support the FBG and not gain any advantage whatsoever! This is an asymmetrical game, a weird and complex universe and I find it inappropriate to complain that players can't get everything, everything and everything for free.
Let me just put this here just in case:

LandingPage wrote:
One city.
A thousand choices.
Discover a dark and hilarious Gothic underworld where all your actions have consequences. And did we mention it's free?


--
I am accepting Plant battles, Neath's Mysteries card, Starveling Cats and boxed cats.
No suppers, no second chances gain and no need to cure my menaces!
ESs items and quality requirements sheet
Achievement list if you're feeling bored!
-1 link
Optimatum
Optimatum
Posts: 3540

27 days ago
You seem to have missed my point entirely. I'm not complaining that getting every companion requires spending Fate; goodness knows I've spent a lot of Fate on them already. My objection is that the current pricing encourages skipping the new content that Failbetter works so hard to make.

--
Optimatum, a ruthless and merciful gentleman. No plant battles, Affluent Photographer requests, or healing offers; all other social actions welcome.

Want a sip of Cider? Just say hi!

PM me for information enigmatic or Fated. Though the forum please, not FL itself.
+2 link
Skinnyman
Skinnyman
Posts: 1912

24 days ago
Optimatum wrote:
You seem to have missed my point entirely. I'm not complaining that getting every companion requires spending Fate; goodness knows I've spent a lot of Fate on them already. My objection is that the current pricing encourages skipping the new content that Failbetter works so hard to make.
I really didn't miss your point, but this is a funny way to put it! Big Grin

--
I am accepting Plant battles, Neath's Mysteries card, Starveling Cats and boxed cats.
No suppers, no second chances gain and no need to cure my menaces!
ESs items and quality requirements sheet
Achievement list if you're feeling bored!
-1 link
Hotshot Blackburn
Hotshot Blackburn
Posts: 110

24 days ago
You actually did miss their point. It’s not about asymmetric gameplay or the desire to get everything for free: it’s about the idea that FBG wants to incentivize players to purchase Fate now for story and companions, but that it’s more financially optimal for those people who would spend money to do so in a future year for much cheaper. Take one of the Hallowmass spider upgrades: you could have paid 30 Fate for it last year (two confessions at 15 fate each) or only 15 fate for it this year. This becomes an issue when the only way to collect most or all of the companions, because it is a given that those doing so will pay money either way for the opportunity to do so - but that also means FBG incentivizes those same people not to spend Fate this year and wait until next year. And those that might be inclined to do so may be put off by the high cost of a single Confession. There should be an additional draw for those who are willing to spend money to do so even though it is more sensible to wait a year and have the price drop by half or more.

I agree with Optimatum’s standpoint that the price of the Confessions itself is the easiest way to experiment with this: rather than 15 Fate a confession, how many players would buy extra Confessions at 10 Fate, or 7 Fate? There must be a solution to encourage money-spenders to put down money now and not wait until later. Now, perhaps it is the narrative interweaving itself that is worth the relative 15 Fate...but that leads into another set of questions entirely.
edited by Hotshot Blackburn on 10/28/2019

--
Hotshot Blackburn: Messidor, Aspirant to the Calendar Council. Paramount Presence. Seeker of the Name. A firm believer in kindness, solidarity, and sufficient use of force and firepower.
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Optimatum
Optimatum
Posts: 3540

24 days ago
Skinnyman wrote:
Optimatum wrote:
You seem to have missed my point entirely. I'm not complaining that getting every companion requires spending Fate; goodness knows I've spent a lot of Fate on them already. My objection is that the current pricing encourages skipping the new content that Failbetter works so hard to make.
I really didn't miss your point, but this is a funny way to put it! Big Grin



Unless I greatly misunderstand your reply, you very much did miss my point, as your counterpoints didn't address my concerns.

I'm fine with optional companions, and with requiring Fate to get them all. While I don't like Hallowmass's change towards requiring Fate for collection—it feels too close to FotER, which design I dislike anyway, though I appreciate any companion being obtainable for free—that's a separate discussion. What I dislike is that purchasing companions with Fate when released costs over twice as much as purchasing them a year later. Such a price drop is more appropriate to useful items like the Mayoral weapons, where buying them sooner means an additional year of use, not companions that are purely for flavor.

Like I said, I don't understand why Failbetter has (recently) put so much effort into making an entirely new Hallowmas story every year and then priced Fate confessions in a way that discourages seeing more of that new content. You do raise a good point that we can exchange echoes with fellow players to see all the text. However, I use such collaboration out of curiosity for alternate paths that conflict with my own character's desires. Recruiting additional companions is something that my character would very much like to do, and reading through other player's echoes lacks that personal meaning.

If Failbetter decides to keep the current prices the same, that's fine. They're under no obligation to change here, and perhaps this design is more successful financially. I just hope they'll consider feedback about its effect on time-sensitive stories.

--
Optimatum, a ruthless and merciful gentleman. No plant battles, Affluent Photographer requests, or healing offers; all other social actions welcome.

Want a sip of Cider? Just say hi!

PM me for information enigmatic or Fated. Though the forum please, not FL itself.
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Skinnyman
Skinnyman
Posts: 1912

24 days ago
Hotshot Blackburn wrote:
You actually did miss their point (and were rather insulting in the process).
Oh, sorry if that was the case! There wasn't a single thread of desire to do so!

As someone that sees most of the things in numbers, I got Opti's point from the start, but the companions aren't even Fate-locked (this year) and their echoes can be easily acquired/discussed.
I started hoarding items and qualities and for a few months, even echos. Thus, I perfectly understand the desire to "taste" the echo when pressing that button! Big Grin


Hotshot Blackburn wrote:
Take one of the Hallowmass spider upgrades: you could have paid 30 Fate for it last year (two confessions at 15 fate each) or only 15 fate for it this year.
I was away for a few days and because of all the things I need to catch up, I end up thinking at 100 words and only 10 of them written so I'll just give an example: the price of a game at launch vs 1-2 years after.

--
I am accepting Plant battles, Neath's Mysteries card, Starveling Cats and boxed cats.
No suppers, no second chances gain and no need to cure my menaces!
ESs items and quality requirements sheet
Achievement list if you're feeling bored!
+1 link
Hotshot Blackburn
Hotshot Blackburn
Posts: 110

24 days ago
I will admit, my opening words were also a bit harsh - I think it was a combination of the quoting of the opening words and then the “I did understand” rebuttal that affected me. In response to your points, I have two thoughts.

One, it should be noted that there are 13 confessions made available for free, while the combined cost to purchase all companions is 25 confessions. This means, at a maximum, 12 confessions would need to be purchased with fate for a total of 180 Fate. Each companion requires two or three confessions, which means anywhere from 30 to 45 Fate per companion - the latter being the cost of a first-time ES. We can assume that any player can acquire 5-7 companions for free each Hallowmass, and the remaining companions must require money. It is still cheaper to purchase companions not acquired for free during a later year as opposed to the Hallowmas in which they are first introduced.

Two, I think you raise an interesting point with game sales, but would contrast this with FBG’s other Fate options. Aside from going down from 45 fate to 25 fate if you’ve played them once, Exceptional Stories do not have the same markdown over time despite being released multiple years ago. Nor do companions and feast-gifts from previous Feast of the Roses holidays, or Home Comforts from Christmas, or even election items from previous elections. They are worth the same amount of Fate as they ever were. The question then becomes: should these also decrease in price, like Hallowmas companions effectively do? And if they should not, then are Hallowmas companions purchased with fate really worth the 30/45 Fate needed to purchase them with confessions or the 15/20 needed to purchase them outright the year after? Wouldn’t it be better to allow us to straight up purchase companions at Hallowmas with Fate without confessions, in that case?

FBG is constantly tinkering with Hallowmass, and gaining confessions for free or fate has been one of those ways. I don’t mind paying, but paying twice as much because individual confessions are 15 a pull as the only way seems...weird, in comparison with other Fate prices.

--
Hotshot Blackburn: Messidor, Aspirant to the Calendar Council. Paramount Presence. Seeker of the Name. A firm believer in kindness, solidarity, and sufficient use of force and firepower.
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Optimatum
Optimatum
Posts: 3540

24 days ago
Skinnyman wrote:
Hotshot Blackburn wrote:
You actually did miss their point (and were rather insulting in the process).
Oh, sorry if that was the case! There wasn't a single thread of desire to do so!


No offense was taken. If anything I was frustrated at my own failure to be clear.

Skinnyman wrote:
I was away for a few days and because of all the things I need to catch up, I end up thinking at 100 words and only 10 of them written so I'll just give an example: the price of a game at launch vs 1-2 years after.


For something like a game, or a good equipment item in FL, price drops happen in part because of missed potential for use. Buy a game a year after it comes out, and you've missed a year of potential playtime, or had a year of potential spoilers. Buy the Feducci's lance two years ago, and you get +20 Dangerous that entire time; buy it now and you only get a discount to compensate for the lost opportunities. (A rather hefty discount too, at 40 Fate instead of the original 150 Fate-equivalent of ten confessions.) These companions have no mechanical benefit, so the only loss for waiting is a small amount of missed text, far out of proportion with the price drop.

The other big reason for price drops, in my mind, is to entice customers who aren't interested enough to pay full price. Games go on sale to attract people who can't afford the full price, or aren't quite as interested in the premise, or were discouraged by negative rumors. Rare items in FL get discounted to make them more accessible to newer players as more and more get added. However, the promise of future price cuts shouldn't be so great that nobody makes the original purchase. And that's the case here—players not buying new content because there's not enough to justify the price difference.

Hotshot Blackburn wrote:
Two, I think you raise an interesting point with game sales, but would contrast this with FBG’s other Fate options.


A couple quibbles: election items from previous candidates do get discounted, from 30 to 20 Fate, and the old FotZ equipment was made cheaper when moved to being Fate-exclusive. Also, purchasing Hallowmas companions with Fate directly would be much more time-consuming to program in. That said, perhaps Failbetter should start marking down older content in other contexts. By my math, the past Exceptional Stories alone cost well over $400 at minimum. There've been various suggestions before to have seasonal bundles or discount featured stories, which I hope happens eventually.

--
Optimatum, a ruthless and merciful gentleman. No plant battles, Affluent Photographer requests, or healing offers; all other social actions welcome.

Want a sip of Cider? Just say hi!

PM me for information enigmatic or Fated. Though the forum please, not FL itself.
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silurica
silurica
Posts: 149

24 days ago
I wholeheartedly support the suggestion for season bundles for ES. I think season bundles would also be great for giving a chance to shine to stories that are rarely or never recommended by the playerbase.
edited by silurica on 10/29/2019

--
Meika Osborne, the Reckless Researcher
Leonard West, the Scarlet Informant
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Jolanda Swan
Jolanda Swan
Posts: 1542

24 days ago
I am sure bundles will result in a cash influx for Failbetter. And I say that having eventually bought all of past ES I missed one by one over the years. If you can buy any single story you missed, but you can also buy three stories (say, a season) for a discount, I am sure lots of people would treat themselves to the chunk of content.

--
Lover of all things beautiful, secret admirer of ugly truths, fond of the Parabola Sun... and always delighted to role play.
http://fallenlondon.com/profile/Jolanda%20Swan
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phryne
phryne
Posts: 1242

20 days ago
Just joined the club of those who accidentally changed their Mask. This option really shouldn't sit at the top of the storylets list.

--
Exceptional Stories, sorted by Season and by writerFavours & Renown GuideDestiny Guide
Go play StoryNexus games - while you still can!
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