 Vishal Khairnar Posts: 13
12/24/2013
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Basically a collection of all of the most powerful supernatural entities and speculations about them... Ruinous spoilers for the Rubbery Men, the Masters, Devils, and The Glass of Mahogany Hall, What the Thunder Said [spoiler] Tier 1
The Bazaar, the Mountain and others of their ilk -The Bazaar eats love -Will inhabit 7 cities -The Mountain induces immortality -Possibly created the Correspondence Questions/Speculation -Will possibly leave London when the spires of the Bazaar are filled? -The Bazaar eats love to sooth her own pain?
The Judgements -They may be the stars and "The Bazaar lies between the stars" -They might redeem the Lorn-Flukes -It might be the center of power for the employers of the Master's employers
Tier 2
The Lorn-Flukes/Rubbery Men -connected with the Correspondence (possibly deeper than the Masters) -capable of sculpting flesh through said vital essences -capable of making humans into beings like them Questions/Speculation -What is deep amber? -What is warm amber? -What is trembling amber? -What is pulsating amber? -What does the Lorn part mean? After all Fluke means *FATE LOCKED CONTENT* -Why do they need to be redeemed? -How are they connected to the Name The Finger Kings -connected to the Glass -powers over illusions -inhabit of Parabola -associated with mirrors (of black glass) -in need of humans to inhabit for their ultimate goals -connected with Spiders (Investigations in the University) and Snakes -capable of unleashing "...crimson earthquakes..." -able to bodysurf and feed on dreams and memories (RED HONEY) Questions/Speculation -Connected to the Third City, more specifically "the Mottled Man, the Serpent-Handed, and the Red Bird -- who are hinted to be have been Third City bishop-kings... have set up their own Xibalba, river of scorpions ... similar...,to the Fingerkings... I don't know whether they're one in the same, or whether the Third City's priests simply tapped into the power of Parabola to prolong their lives... another name they seem to go by -- the God Eaters -- though I've only seen this come up once or twice."-theodor_gylden -Why are they called the Finger Kings -Does it have anything to do with one of them being Serpent-Handed? -Why do serpents get so much attention? -That creature in the Labyrinth of Tigers says he is one of the true lords of London?
Tier 3
The Masters -connected with the Correspondence -are probably gigantic bats/pterodactyls -capable of making humans into being like them -control the flow of trade Questions/Speculation -Initially they would not have servants from London so how did they establish power in the chaos of the Fall? -What happened when London fell?
Mr.EATEN -was a Master -Had a truly awful fate befall him
-I will not speculate so I can avoid misfortune but I will add the speculation of others
Tier 4
The Devils -very high internal body temperature (scalding tears) -possible control over fire/heat (they tear flaming rents in people) -have/used to have royalty -Interested in the Correspondence Questions/Speculation -possibly exist outside of time (the fedora, the escalators in Moloch Street Station) -Who is at the very bottom and why are they so interested in the Correspondence?
The Dead God of Thunder -controls the weather -can dream in death Questions/Speculation -Can he reincarnate? -How did he die?
Maybes
The various forms of the Consorts possibly (though they may have it derived from The Bazaar's power) i.e The King with a Hundred Hearts, The Cantigaster
Wild Mass Guessing (Any wild speculation) What if the Thunder God is alive in Parabola and never really was in the neath at all?-Blackleaf
[/spoiler] Any others I should add? Should I shut this down? I'm not sure how compliant with the forum rules this is though I have read them. I have a separate list that also includes some of the fate locked details that I know. PM me if you would like to see them. edited by Jango on 12/24/2013 edited by Jango on 12/24/2013 edited by Jango on 12/24/2013 edited by Jango on 12/24/2013
-- http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/jango
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 Nathanael S. Wells Posts: 80
12/24/2013
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Speculation without my two farthings? Nonsense!
Incoming text wall of China.
[spoiler]I. From the Firmament - the Masters of the Bazaar
The Correspondence seems to be the language that is used by certain celestial bodies, such as the "Judgements" and the Bazaar itself. As such, it is unlikely that the Masters are native speakers, but certain storylets reveal that the Masters write and read the Correspondence quite fluently, and that - between stars - they are also able to speak it.
The Masters have an interesting physiognomy, to say the least. Clawed feet and wings - or rather, vanes - are involved. They seem to be used to flight more than to walking on the ground, and it has indeed been implied several times that the Masters have something bat-like about them.
As for how they gained control over London, it probably happened through the main faculty of the Masters: assessing someone's desires, and trading them in for whatever they want out of that person. It's likely that the Masters bought the upper echelons of Fifth City society early on and, if there were any early insurrectionary hiccups, quickly and mercilessily made examples of them.
II. Into the Dark - the Lorn-Flukes
Personally, I believe that the Lorn-Flukes were originally Bazaarine lifeforms. If you compare the artwork for the Flukes with the artwork of the Bazaar in front of the Sun, both look like spiny fractal sea urchins. The Lorn-Flukes also seem to hold a grudge against the Bazaar, and - even though it is Fate-locked to say how, why and what - I believe the Lorn-Flukes may not be strangers to the state between stars.
As for the origin and purpose of Deep Amber...both are Fate-locked, so I can't say anything other than point out some obvious things that may bring you closer to insights. The Rubbery Men bring Deep Amber to London. They sell it and give it away, and eventually, they buy it back again. They seem to be awfully keen on it passing a lot of hands, and they like to buy back Warm Amber the most. As for what Deep Amber is...all amber is a petrified organic resin, and all amber may contain inclusions. Among jewelry makers, amber with certain high-quality inclusions is considered of a higher value. Perhaps the same holds true for Deep Amber?
As for certain other kinds of Deep Amber, perhaps other kinds of inclusion are responsible. Particularily those who are tinted in exotic colours. But what is the purpose of capturing those colours in the amber?
III. The Light and the Glass - the Fingerkings
I have a bit of a pet theory about the Fingerkings. I'll write it in cursive, since it's so much conjecture, but I think it makes sense to some degree.
The Fingerkings are the native inhabitants of Parabola, a world that was once separate from ours but somehow became entangled with it through dreams and mirrors. The Fingerkings live in a world of illusions, where there are no "real" things, and where everything that the Fingerkings may wish for can be created, but not "really". (Sandwiches in Parabola, anyone?) At one point, the Fingerkings became aware of the world we live in, and they fell in love with its reality, its matter, its limitations and immutable character. If a Fingerking wants a sandwich, he creates it - but it's not a real sandwich. If we want a sandwich, we will have to labour to make it, but it is the epitome of a sandwich. The Fingerkings also fell in love with us. They created prisoners honey and gaolers honey (with the help of "the grumpiest bee in both worlds") to bring some of us to adore and entertain as honoured visitors. But of course, they wanted to visit us as well. Beings of idea as they are, they cannot enter a world of matter all by themselves. So they take some of their honoured guests as vehicles, and set out into our world. But the way they love us is twisted - they love us for our hylic, limited, non-transcendent character; something that doesn't change if we are subject to pain, misery or death. So there's no incentive for them to keep us from those things. And in time, their love becomes jealousy. They want to rule this world and live in it: "We are the real kings of London", "We will exist! Clothed in jade and clothed in mud!" (What if Unfinished Men are Fingerkings hijacking the children of the King with a Hundred Hearts when he has nightmares of Parabola?)
IV. Brass Bones - the Devils
Good point there about the Devils existing outside of time.
A recent new honey dream reveals to us visions of devil-like beings that look vaguely "inhuman" - their faces lacking guile, their movements being jerky and irregular - who may have been (if that tense can be applied to timeless beings) a sort of "proto-Devil", which is of course at this point only conjecture on my side.
I think Devils are connected in some way to fire, in a very intrinsical way. It is implied that burning the reported location of a former prince of Hell might be a bad idea in that whatever has been written there may become public to the Devils. And one should never burn one's letters, either.
Is that why the Devils look into the Correspondence? Clearly, no other script burns as much and as often as it does, and the Devils must be vexed by its mystery much more than we are. Perhaps it might even hurt them to see it. Perhaps it might even be why they are so hot to the touch. But do they really want to just rid themselves of it or do they seek a more nefarious purpose? Devils are not to be trusted and not to be underestimated. After all, the Correspondence can be utilized to speak with the Judgements, who seem to have a certain faculty ascribed to the prime enemy of the Judeo-Christian "devil". At the same time, the prime devil of Judeo-Christian tradition, Helel or Lucifer (when not read in its appropriate context as mocking invective against a Babylonian king, of course) is known as the Morning Star and the Light-Bringer, which would clearly place it among the Judgements.
Now...why do Devils collect souls? Have we actually ever seen them eat souls? My own theories about the life cycles of souls and stars and gods and Judgements would point towards them being the fabled "God-Eaters" if it so were, but I don't quite buy it yet. But what else do they do with things that only sadness in sufficient quality and quantity may destroy? It seems that "truly immortal souls" are of an even higher value to them. Is there some quality of sadness to Devils that we do not yet know of that allows them to "digest" souls, if you will? Or are souls of a completely different use to them? If so...I don't know what it is. Unless they try to hatch them and create their own Judgement? Unlikely.
V. North Star, Inverted - Mr Eaten
Why is Mr Eatens name a number, and why is that number seven? Seven seems to be the number when a few other things are concerned, most egregiously perhaps in the amount of cities that need to be acquired by the Bazaar before it may return whence it came.
Perhaps seven of the Masters (perhaps there were seven Originals, and five were recruited later?) are tasked with the responsibility of acquiring the cities, and consequently are given some sort of responsibility over the deal? It seems that the First City was acquired by Mr. Cups (which is quite appropriate considering the prominence of pottery in Mesopotamia) and perhaps the Fifth City was acquired by Mr Fires (given his love for the city and the prominence of steam-powered industry in Britain).
Perhaps Mr Eaten acquired the Second City, and was held responsible for its betrayal. Leave it to the Masters to repay in kind. (Not sure if Egypt had a lot of candles...I'm not a student of Egyptology, but I know they had apiculture enough for wax.)
And why is he NORTH? If the Neath is below the Surface, and the world is still spherical, then the cardinal directions might still hold true in the Neath as they do on the Surface (just one layer below). As such, it might be that Mr Eaten is far below the North Pole. But what is the significance of this?
VI. What the Thunder Said - the dead god of Thunder
God of thunder. It might be worth noting that there is a certain recurrent theme in Indo-European (but not exclusively!) mythology that has been termed the "Chaoskampf": the defeat of a primordial sea monster at the hands of a heroic thunder god.
Examples:
Thor vs. the Jordmundgandr (Norse) Zeus vs. Typhon (Greek) Tarhunta vs. Illuyanka (Hittite) Perkwunos vs. Kormis (Lithuanian) Perun vs. Veles (Slavic) Ba'al Hadad vs. Yam (Canaanite) Marduk vs. Tiamat (Babylonian) Yahweh vs. Leviathan (Hebrew) Indra vs. Vritra (Vedic)
It seems that the God of Thunder we know of in the Neath is the archetypical Chaoskampf fighter from which all these reverberations come.
Now: usually I loathe the mixing of settings and universes but I know of a concept that I feel would be interesting to bring up here, from another setting.
Some of you may know that The Elder Scrolls has a sort of metaphysical underbelly, the levels of theorizing which are done on which come close to theorizing on Fallen London. Just to throw out a few metaphysical terms of TES lore: the Amaranth, the Enantiomorph, CHIM, zero-summing, the Tower and the Wheel, the Shezarrine(s), mantling.
"Mantling" is the term I feel need to explain and bring into context with discussion of the dead god of thunder.
In the Elder Scrolls world, "mantling" is the process of B becoming A by way of being so much like A that eventually the universe itself registers B as being A. Mantling has occurred a few times in Elder Scrolls history (Tiber Septim mantling the trickster-creator god Lorkhan and becoming the god Talos, the Nerevarine mantling Indoril Nerevar as a self-fulfilled prophecy, the Hero of Cyrodiil mantling Sheogorath etc.)
Mantling becomes easier when the person who is mantled is dead, since A is now literally more like B than B currently is (It's helped by how "death" in TES is essentially defined as "to be is-not").
A common description of mantling is: "walk like them until they must walk like you".
In our recurrent dreams of What the Thunder said, we are walking like the dead thunder god.
We are walking in the footsteps of the dead god so convincly and so accurately that we eventually "mantle" him a bit. This is what becoming "Storm-Eyed" means.
As to who he was and what his relation to the Judgements and the Neath is, I wish I knew. It is said that the Neath is the skull of a long-dead god, and Grunting Fen one of his teeth.
VII. Son et Lumiere - the Bazaar
The Bazaar. I like to call it the bell-turned-knife. Tristram Bagley wrote an opera on forbidden love between celestial bodies, gathered from Correspondent sources. He named it The Bell and the Candle. The Candle, without a doubt, is a representation of a source of Light, and most likely therefore the Sun.
As for why the Bazaar became a knife when he fell to the Neath, I don't know. But a Rubbery Man in the Cave of the Nadir (IIRC) provides us with pictographic evidence of the Sun and a jagged triangle side to side.
Why was the Bazaar a Bell? Because the Judgements have a language, but no voice. They require messengers, angels. The Bazaar can display Correspondence signs on its skin. Bazaarine lifeforms like it travel between stars, with messages. One day, our delicious host will bring a message from the Seventh to the Sun.
""Do you recall how we came to that place? And they sang of their lightnings and shapeful disgrace? And we tilted our vanes and ennobled our spires. They welcomed us then and commingled all choirs. And not enough, not enough. Still It mourns, and still waits the Sun."
"And commingled all choirs. And not enough, not enough."
Are we not providing enough stories for the Bazaar to soothe its pain? To hide its shame?[/spoiler]
I must now be off to indulge in Christmas festivities. Coming soon: on the Stone-Pigs, the Sun and the Judgements.
-- Nathanael S. Wells, the Epicurean Polymath.
Founder and Patron of the Damnation Army, a philanthropic society devoted towards bringing food and clothes to the destitute and impoverished Seekers! Consider donating food (no Rubbery Lumps, please!) or clothes (no Veils-Velvet, please! We don't need another incident.)
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 Laluzi Posts: 456
12/24/2013
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That isn't terribly spoiler-ish. Is it?
As for speculation about Mr Eaten (somebody please correct me if any of this is glaringly incorrect);
[spoiler]He was once a Master by the name of Mr Candles, or at least Candles and whatever honorific was used at a time. He was betrayed by his kin, chiefly Mr Veils, in the Third City. The exact details of his demise aren't known, but it involved being bound, drowning in a well, and priests known as the God-Eaters devouring him, which removed him of his dominion - candles, dreams, and 'the light on the edge of sleep'. However, it seems even the Masters don't know how to properly kill their own kind, because something remained.
Now he's largely associated with madness, hunger, and the number seven. All wells seem to carry his touch, and his voice can be heard from them, especially by those suffering from unnatural hunger. Others are afflicted by dreams of water and drowning, bidding them to journey North. There seems to be a connection between him and the Drownies - all water has belonged to a well at some point or another, and it carries echoes of the betrayal. While he doesn't seem to have any power besides driving men to their demise, the other Masters fear him and his influence, and actively discourage anyone from seeking his Name.
Mr Eaten himself is - unsurprisingly - a twisted shadow of his former self, and has openly said that he cannot be restored to his old station. He craves revenge and promises the Masters that he will not be forgotten - 'a reckoning will not be postponed indefinitely' - and expresses particular vitriol for Mr Veils, Mr Wines, Mr Spices, and the Sun.[/spoiler] edited by Laluzi on 12/24/2013
-- Feel free to ask if you need something! Uninterested in Trailing the Affluent Photographer. Mercer - an enigmatic and brutal individual. Frightfully strong. Has even more frightful manners.
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 Wolventide Posts: 8
1/5/2014
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Here's a quick speculation about the Bazaar itself and the Passion destiny. I would rate it "moderate rampancy."
[spoiler]The interesting thing about the Passion destiny is that you can only get it by writing a particularly tragic story onto the skin of the bazaar. By doing so, you achieve a glimpse of a future in which the Bazaar is romantic, repentant, and hopeful. That could imply that the Bazaar might not be collecting love stories to power or placate itself, but rather to learn, to repent, or even to change.[/spoiler]
-- M. Wolventide: http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/M~Wolventide
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 Nathanael S. Wells Posts: 80
12/31/2013
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[spoiler]I. Luciforms - the Judgements
The Judgements, ah...perhaps the one Eldritch group in this game that fascinates me most. My character chose, in his destinies, to be among them at least if not like them. But so much about them is Fate-locked. As such...I'll try to say what we know to be certain, and drop as many hints as is safe to drop.
The Judgements are connected to Light. Their Light determines what Is. All things that are Is-Not are therefore attacked on an existential level by Light, since it is connected so intricately to those who define reality. Think of it like matter-antimatter, except perhaps less explosive.
Things that are Is-Not walk the Neath, and cannot walk the Surface. Does that mean that, to some extent, we ourselves become Is-Not when we die and the mountain can only keep us alive in the absence of a proper Judgement telling us to suck it up and become Is-Not like we should? But what about other things that are Is-Not in the Neath?
Lastly...where do the Judgements come from? If they are life-forms, they do not seem to have a traditionally biological component to them. As such, they are likely not born from biological eggs, seeds or spores. Perhaps, then, their origin is to be found in the non-biological components of life, as esoterical as saying that may sound. And as I did in the book thread, I recommend reading "Beyond the Wall of Sleep" by H. P. Lovecraft.
II. Des Chiens de Garde et des Cerbères - the Eater-of-Chains
The Eater-of-Chains stalks our dreams, never our waking moments. His transformation in dreams (anyone reading this presumably already knows what shape the Eater-of-Chains is found in when awake, so I won't spoil) seems to mirror that usually reserved to felines.
People before me have pointed out the connection between the Eater-of-Chains and Fenrir, also known as the Fenriswolf, who is bound to an unbreakable magic chain composed of technically impossible or at least highly improbable things and gnaws at it until the day of Ragnarökk; I therefore can only repeat this observation.
In the carneval part of the Mr. Eaten storyline, the Eater-of-Chains actually speaks to you, and mentions something about how there are still too many chains for him to devour. Does that mean that, much like for Fenrir, the day will come when the Eater-of-Chains frees himself of his chains? What will happen to those who chained him, and to the one who currently keeps him?
III. Buried but Breathing - the Stone Pigs
Just recently I still belonged to the school of thought that believed the "Stone Pigs" were truly a translation error, perhaps from Latin "orcus" to "porcus". But recent direful surmises regarding lacre and some insistent assurances (not at all reassuring) by some of the Masters (or their simulacrae - simulacre? Making that my headcanon term now.) imply that yes, they are pigs or at least outfitted with the same biology and affected by the same things to the same degree that common pigs are affected by. And that the Masters keep them asleep, and that if they were to awake, the Neath might experience earthquakes of sorts. Honestly, all this does is to ask more questions about Lacre; until now we thought that the Bazaar produced it more or less involuntarily, and that it was devoid of use except as a solvent for souls and inducer of Bazaarine thoughts. But if such an inherent...biological?...function of the Bazaar, which also has been a recurring theme and apparently very important in its connection to love stories is spent on keeping the Stone Pigs asleep, what does it say about their importance? And their relationship to the Bazaar?
----
Further evidence for the connection between Devils and bees: the creation of Prisoner's and Gaoler's Honey is credited to aforementioned "grumpiest bee in both worlds", which I theorize to be the original queen (empress?) of the devils. The flower necessary to make Gaoler's Honey grows in Hell. Furthermore, in one of the new honey dreams, the one featuring the "proto-devils", we see that a lightning strike reduces one to a cloud of "flying things", and the others do not seem to be very perturbed. This seems to confirm the nature of devil death as reducing them to a swarm of bees, and discredits the idea that it might have been a trick; it just doesn't seem to be a big deal for devils. They did say that their relationship with death is difficult for humans to understand.
Also: I humbly request research to be done towards the direction of one individual whose mention I have seen twice only and who puzzles me greatly. The Red-Handed Queen, I believe she was called, and you can choose to free her in one of the Parabola destinies; another time she appeared playing chess in the mirrored carneval during the Mr. Eaten storyline. She might be associated with lightning or plague, IIRC. And she might be able to "wear flesh".[/spoiler] edited by Nathanael S. Wells on 12/31/2013
-- Nathanael S. Wells, the Epicurean Polymath.
Founder and Patron of the Damnation Army, a philanthropic society devoted towards bringing food and clothes to the destitute and impoverished Seekers! Consider donating food (no Rubbery Lumps, please!) or clothes (no Veils-Velvet, please! We don't need another incident.)
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 Alexis Kennedy Posts: 1374
12/24/2013
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[deleted my own unseasonally grouchy comment re: copyright. Bah humbug.] edited by Alexis on 12/25/2013
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 Diptych Administrator Posts: 3493
12/24/2013
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[spoiler]I'm not sure, but I think the King with a Hundred Hearts' power comes from a combination of the Bazaar's power and that of the Mountain of Light - he himself has no real control of it, and indeed is as much a prisoner as, say, the Cantigaster.[/spoiler]
-- Sir Frederick, the Libertarian Esotericist. Lord Hubris, the Bloody Baron. Juniper Brown, the Ill-Fated Orphan. Esther Ellis-Hall, the Fashionable Fabian.
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 streetfelineblue Posts: 1459
12/24/2013
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Blackleaf wrote:
True true. But the thunder god has to count.
I'm not entirely sure about that. [spoiler]He's, uhm, DEAD. Long dead. He does seem to maintain some degree of control over reality or at the very least over the mind of people, but I couldn't really divine the exact extension of his powers. Sure he has a booming voice, though.[/spoiler]
-- Twitter: @streetfelineblu Blue's LiveJournal Blue's Echo Bazaar profile Blue's Night Circus diary Link to Ocelot's Enigma Ambition hint page; PM for clarification. No direct solutions provided.
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 theodor_gylden Posts: 117
12/24/2013
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re: The Fingerkings --
[spoiler]I've been wondering about their connection to the Third City, lately. The Fidgeting Writer reveals quite a bit about three figures -- the Mottled Man, the Serpent-Handed, and the Red Bird -- who are hinted to be have been Third City bishop-kings. (And who elsewhere are hinted to have set up their own Xibalba, river of scorpions and all, across the zee.) They've a similar modus operandi, let's say, to the Fingerkings. They can pass from body to body, possessing people by entering their dreams and consuming their minds. They're associated with mirrors and lenses, particularly of black glass. I don't know whether they're one in the same, or whether the Third City's priests simply tapped into the power of Parabola to prolong their lives. And then there's another name they seem to go by -- the God Eaters -- though I've only seen this come up once or twice.
Why the Fingerkings, anyway? Is it just the name magicians give them? Does it have anything to do with one of them being Serpent-Handed? And if there's a jaguar and some sort of bird in the group, too, why do serpents get so much attention? Plus if you help an ostensible Fingerking escape from the Labyrinth of Tigers, he says he's one of many and they're the 'true lords of London' ...
... No, I don't know where I'm going with this theory. But hopefully it all fuels further speculation.
ETA: Oh, and the Judgments come in a bit of Parabola-lore, too ... A Searing Enigma in the Forgotten Quarter, I believe. The Judgments determine what is. Parabola's citizens are Is-Not. And there are places in the Neath where the Judgments cannot see.[/spoiler] edited by theodor_gylden on 12/24/2013
-- Journal: http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/echo_theodor Annotations & Epistles: http://theodor-gylden.dreamwidth.org/ Storylet: http://theodor-gylden.dreamwidth.org/11160.html
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 Alexander Feld Posts: 348
12/25/2013
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This is a truly superb thread full of particularly delicious murmuring. Allow me to add to it: [spoiler] Devils: "Ah, Death. We holiday on the River, did I ever tell you that? If we cross, we rarely return, but we find the airs of that place restful. We have died, of course, all of us, at least once, or we wouldn't be citizens of Hell."
Now this is very interesting. We know the Brass Trireme rows North along the River, though we don't know why. But the second part? Were the devils something else, once? Damned humans? It would explain what they want all the souls for. Or perhaps they were those 'guileless' devils from the new dreams.
"[...]when one falls, another rises. The same one? Hell is unnumbered, my dear. And so who can say? Did I ever tell you my name? Why do you think that might be? If I said to you that Death visits us as the bee visits the flower, what would that mean to you?"
Curiouser and curiouser. Other experiments show that devils, when killed... crumple into paper and bees fly out. Okay then. This may have been a trick of some kind, but it is said that Devilbone is not devil bone, and devils barely react when you shoot them. Perhaps the devils are some animating force that controls their bodies. If devils are bees, is it of significance that the Hound of Heaven is a serpent? There are also other kinds of demons, but they are rarely mentioned, and it is hard to tell if they are the same kind of thing as devils.
Regarding fire: "There was a time when Death feared fire. And then we did not fear him. That time is long past... but it is very difficult to burn us. [...] If I die, will another rise in my place? Or will it be me, the next instar?"
Very interesting. Also frustratingly cryptic. But note the bees/reincarnation theme again.
Masters: Perhaps it is of note that music appears to have an unusual effect on them. Mr Wines becomes intoxicated by it, there was a brief mention of a similar effect on Mr Pages, and Mr Veils, well... if it is permitted to be said aloud, we know he is the Vake. And there are certain choirs that sing to appease the Vake, and Urchins speak of a creature they must feed poetry lest it eat them. This fondness for song may simple be an extension of their presumable bat-like nature, or may have greater significance.
Through a process of deduction and the careful study of secret documents, I have found a physical description of something that is quite possibly a Master disrobed:
"A bat. Well, the shape of a bat. It's more like an ink spill pushed into a batlike silhouette. It glides on silent, unmoving wings towards you, passing just over your head. As you duck, you see that the shape contains tiny pin-pricks of light, like distant stars. No wind marks its passing."
That is all I will say on the matter.
Parabola: It occurs to me that the denizens of Parabola are somewhat reminiscent of fairies; they are otherworldly, tricksterish beings with bizarre anatomy and a habit of messing with people's minds. The mention of a 'Huntsman' and the way they make things that are not quite real are further signs. They also live in a place where time doesn't work the same, where they imprison people based on poorly-worded deals. The connection may only be thematic, but that theme could be useful to explore.
The name is interesting, too; Parabola, a symmetrical curve that dips below or above a flat plane. I wonder why that name was chosen to describe it. Does Parabola lurk below the axis of reality? Does that curve describe its non-linear trajectory through time?
The connection to spiders is a bit mysterious. To uncover more, I believe we will need to investigate Spider-Councils. I do not know everything, but I know that every sorrow-spider is hatched from a stolen eye, and that the Councils hatch from the eyes of those marked by the Correspondence. Perhaps this links the Finger-Kings to the Correspondence somehow, or perhaps it is simply the mixing of different metaphysical powers. The only evidence I have found to link Parabola and spiders, though, is that they can travel through mirrors.
The Thunder: Others have covered this subject very thoroughly, but I haven't seen anyone mention the Urchins. They definitely have something to do with The Thunder, but I'm not sure what. They live on the rooftops and listen to the wind. They are connected to Wild Words. They have strange powers, among which is the ability to free one of the Name. And then there's this:
"Our ancestor-tribes. We go back farther than anyone knows. Some says the Second City. [...] But I think we goes back farther than that. I think the Bazaar had other children."
Snuffers: I think some mention should be made of them, as they are certainly not natural in the usual sense. I'm afraid all I have on them is fragments. They steal the faces of humans, because their own faces are hideous. Some of them seem to have some very religious connections, possibly because they were expelled from the Garden. They were somehow expelled moreso than humanity, because they 'die more easily than other men', likely meaning that they cannot come back from the Dark River, even in the Neath. I do not know what their lifespan is. They are very interested in the Mountain of Light in the Elder Continent. And they eat candles; it invigorates them, gives them life. Perhaps they steal it from the light. Does this Eating of Candles connect them to Mr Eaten? [/spoiler] Well, that... that was supposed to be a much shorter post. ...I'll be going now. edited by Alexander Feld on 12/25/2013
-- I am a star-gazer, story-eater, and a smelter of words.
I filch hidden things from hidden places, to hide once more in my dark cabinet of curiosities
Alexander Feld, the mad, damned, lord of seekers.
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 Alexander Feld Posts: 348
12/26/2013
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OPG wrote:
Based on some of the stuff he said, I believe the Capering Relicker was part of Hell's Aristocracy. Based on some of the other stuff he said he was involved with the Fall of the First City, so I assume he was important in some way.
That reminds me if a new question for the OP: What's up with Hesperian Cider? I don't think the Relicker is a devil. Gulliver doesn't at least. [spoiler]He was around since the First City because he drank (and made) the original Hesperidean Cider. And the Manager refers to him as "uncle," so he's possibly a different kind of royalty.
I've gathered that elixirs of immortality can be brewed from a few different fruits. The fruits may have to be of special origin, but peaches from the orchards of Karakorum were turned into a brandy that extended life. It took a great deal of cunning distillery and possibly magic to do, but the peaches still had some unusual properties even in a weaker form. The Cider made from apples that come from the Garden, which seems to bring immortality on its own. I suspect that the Cider is drunk to bring visions that lead one to the Garden, but it does have some healing properties on its own. [/spoiler]
-- I am a star-gazer, story-eater, and a smelter of words.
I filch hidden things from hidden places, to hide once more in my dark cabinet of curiosities
Alexander Feld, the mad, damned, lord of seekers.
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 Diptych Administrator Posts: 3493
12/26/2013
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[spoiler]I doubted the individuality of the Masters for the longest time, but they all show up in a single scene in one of the Destiny-dreams. Which is not to say that might not be illusion or deception, but... the trend of the narrative seems to be against it.[/spoiler]
-- Sir Frederick, the Libertarian Esotericist. Lord Hubris, the Bloody Baron. Juniper Brown, the Ill-Fated Orphan. Esther Ellis-Hall, the Fashionable Fabian.
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 Elene Posts: 184
12/24/2013
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[spoiler] I don't know a whole lot about the Judgements myself, but they are mentioned in the chill of the void destiny I think, and also mentioned in the temple of uttermost wind (fate locked) expedition. I echoed the results of that expedition on my profile somewhere.
From what I can guess, they seem to be stars since the earth's sun seems to be one. Or the Judgement mentioned in chill of the void is different... [/spoiler] edited by Elene on 12/24/2013 edited by Elene on 12/24/2013 edited by Elene on 12/24/2013
-- Elene: Generally open for invitations. No cats or Photographers though. May or may not actually be Mr Wines.
Associates: Grey Colors, Elene2
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 Trodgmey Posts: 164
12/29/2013
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A few notes...
[spoiler] As some of you know (and my tagline says), most of my FL research goes into the identities of the previous cities. A lot of Third City stuff relates to a lot of what's going around here.
The Third City, I'm reasonably certain at this point, is Chichen Itza, and its characters come from a mashup of the Mayan Hero Twins story of invading Xibalba (the Mayan underworld) and defeating its lords with the love story of Sac Nicte and Cenek which leads to the depopulation of Chichen Itza, providing the Third City with its Fall. Critical to all of this is one of Chichen Itza's most famous features, multiple centoes (sinkholes that expose groundwater to the surface), including the Great or Sacred Cenote. The Sacred Cenote is notable for a number of reasons -- digs have found what appear to be sacrifices at their bottoms, and that it's considered one of the entrances to Xibalba.
Back to the Neath, I believe that the God Eaters are the three principles of the special Tomb Colony which is apparently home to the Third City. Somehow they, along with potentially Mr Veils/the Vake (who is possibly a character from the Second City), tricked Mr. Eaten and drowned him in the Sacred Cenote. The resulting feast gave them immortality but also endless hunger. The dousing of Mr. Eaten in the water created the funny water of the Neath, and also explains the odd characteristics of true rubbery lumps from Mutton Island (where they still sacrifice things to the well).
On the Bazaar -- this may be old hat to others, but it seems there's an explicit difference between the Bazaar itself and Masters. My current working theory goes something like this: we've seen the combustable power of the Correspondence -- there's apparently immense energy in simply putting six Correspondence sigils together on a single sheet of paper. It's this energy that powers the Bazaar, and which the Masters use to their advantage. As alluded elsewhere, I think the Bazaar is some sort of urchin-like creature. In order to keep it, well, "fed," the masters collect love stories and carve them in the Correspondence on the surface of the Bazaar, giving its walls the fiery lettering and the Bazaar its energy.
More to say, but that's enough for now. [/spoiler]
-- Trodgmey -- an otherwise pleasant chap with a peculiar obsession with the first four cities. http://www.fallenlondon.com/Profile/Trodgmey
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 Laluzi Posts: 456
12/29/2013
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That... seems really unlikely, given what we know of Snuffers and the Elder Continent. Snuffers are a separate type of being.
Is this a thread for speculation or facts? Since it seems to be a compilation of knowledge... but I'm seeing theories here with wildly varying probabilities and bases in known lore. edited by Laluzi on 12/29/2013
-- Feel free to ask if you need something! Uninterested in Trailing the Affluent Photographer. Mercer - an enigmatic and brutal individual. Frightfully strong. Has even more frightful manners.
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 theodor_gylden Posts: 117
1/2/2014
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Nathanael S. Wells wrote:
Speculation without my two farthings? Nonsense!
Incoming text wall of China.
-- snip -- I must now be off to indulge in Christmas festivities. Coming soon: on the Stone-Pigs, the Sun and the Judgements.
I like the speculation on the celestial meaning of the Bell and the Candle in this post. This morning, I wondered whether there was another, folkloric meaning to bells and candles that I'd missed, and so struck out to research (i.e. to google) -- the first that turned up was the phrase 'bell, book, and candle.'
The Illustrious Wikipedia wrote:
The phrase "bell, book, and candle" refers to a method of excommunication for one who had committed a particularly grievous sin. Apparently introduced around the late 9th century, the practice was once used by the Catholic Church; in modern times, a simple pronouncement is made. This ceremony involved a bishop, with 12 priests, reciting an oath on the altar:
We separate him, together with his accomplices and abettors, from the precious body and blood of the Lord and from the society of all Christians; we exclude him from our Holy Mother, the Church in Heaven, and on earth; we declare him excommunicate and anathema; we judge him damned, with the Devil and his angels and all the reprobate, to eternal fire until he shall recover himself from the toils of the devil and return to amendment and to penitence.
After reciting this the priests would respond "So be it!" The bishop would ring a bell to evoke a death toll, close a holy book to symbolize the ex-communicant's separation from the church, and snuff out a candle or candles, knocking them to the floor to represent the target's soul being extinguished and removed from the light of God.
It's intriguing, I think, even with the absence of the book.
[spoiler]Consider that Mr Eaten was once Mr Candles, and has since been excommunicated, extinguished. Consider there are twelve masters, or were, or will be -- the count's being debated elsewhere in this thread. Consider that the Thunder God's (or 'that lorn thing's') sins were the world's fiercest, though not the greatest. Consider that the Neath is the place where the Earth places the memories that shame her.
Just consider. I'm going to go back to researching bells.[/spoiler]
-- Journal: http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/echo_theodor Annotations & Epistles: http://theodor-gylden.dreamwidth.org/ Storylet: http://theodor-gylden.dreamwidth.org/11160.html
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 Nathanael S. Wells Posts: 80
1/7/2014
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Karhumies: unless we learn of spheres beyond and above those of the Judgements, we must assume that they - given their powers, and associations - are uncreated and sovereign. However, we do know of a certain location somewhere between stars that is connected to the Judgement's eggs; perhaps, then, a sort of celestial Sargasso sea, or a place of even higher divine appointment. Sadly, the name of that place is Fate-locked.
Wolventide: I really like your theory. After all, the stringent requirement and the lesson your character seems to have learned (and the Bazaar, as well?) in that destiny seem to imply that the things you did, the love story you showed the Bazaar, made a difference so huge that it might change an otherwise doomed return to the Sun. Perhaps the Bazaar learned about love that made no sense in any world it could think of, much like the love between a devil and a clergyman, and much like them the Bazaar also fought tooth and nail (spire and vane?) to realize that love conquers all, and makes the worlds in which it is possible. After all, even a Judgement may be confronted with something unexpected.
[spoiler]My headcanon about the Passion destiny is that yes, the Bazaar and the Sun find their impossible love, a love as impossible as that between a Bell and a Candle, between a Judgement and a Messenger, as impossible as that between a devil and a clergyman and as impossible as about every love between two people who could not think of a way in which their love could make sense or work, and made it work anyway because love can make itself work by virtue of love.[/spoiler]
-- Nathanael S. Wells, the Epicurean Polymath.
Founder and Patron of the Damnation Army, a philanthropic society devoted towards bringing food and clothes to the destitute and impoverished Seekers! Consider donating food (no Rubbery Lumps, please!) or clothes (no Veils-Velvet, please! We don't need another incident.)
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 Karhumies Posts: 75
1/7/2014
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[spoiler]Nathanael S. Wells wrote:
However, we do know of a certain location somewhere between stars that is connected to the Judgement's eggs Those eggs do sound familiar. Orphic egg.
Wikipedia wrote:
in the Greek Orphic religion ... The first emanation from this egg ... was ... the personification of light. ... In Greek myth, particularly Orphic thought, Phanes is the golden winged Primordial Being who was hatched from the shining Cosmic Egg that was the source of the universe. Called Protogonos (First-Born) and Eros (Love) — being the seed of gods and men — Phanes means "Manifestor" or "Revealer," and is related to the Greek words "light" and "to shine forth."
Taking it into a larger context: Cosmic egg There are variations in several cultures, apparently.
Of specific interest is the Egyptian version. Especially given that Egypt is closely related with the earliest FL cities of the Bazaar. Since there is very little info regarding the First City, Egypt is as ancient as it gets, I guess? Anyhow: Wikipedia wrote:
...the Milky Way arose from the waters as a mound of dirt, which was deified as Hathor. Ra was contained within an egg ...
Let's have a look at this Hathor, then (emphasis in bold is mine): Wikipedia wrote:
an Ancient Egyptian goddess who personified the principles of joy, feminine love, and motherhood. She was one of the most important and popular deities throughout the history of Ancient Egypt. Hathor was worshiped by Royalty and common people alike in whose tombs she is depicted as "Mistress of the West" welcoming the dead into the next life. In other roles she was a goddess of ... foreign lands ... Hathor may be ... a role as sky-goddess and a relationship to Horus who, as a sun god, is "housed" in her. ... The cult of Osiris promised eternal life to those deemed morally worthy. Originally the justified dead, male or female, became an Osiris but by early Roman times females became identified with Hathor and men with Osiris.
NOTE: I think "Mistress of the West" refers to the setting sun, which is a common symbol for death. And a fitting symbol to use in the FL context as well (The Bazaar's current location, the Neath in general...even the name of the next game is Sunless Sea).
Onwards towards Ra: Wikipedia wrote:
In later Egyptian dynastic times, Ra was merged with the god Horus, as Re-Horakhty ("Ra, who is Horus of the Two Horizons"). He was believed to rule in all parts of the created world: the sky, the earth, and the underworld. ... Ra called [all forms of life] into existence ... In another myth, Ra fears that mankind is plotting against him and sends Hathor (another daughter of Ra) to exterminate the human race.[13] In the morning Sekhmet goes to finish the job and drinks what appears to be blood.[13] It turns out to be red beer, and she is too intoxicated to finish the slaughter.[13] ... Sekhmet was the Eye of Ra and was created by the fire in Ra's eye.
And still Sekhmet: Wikipedia wrote:
Sekhmet also is a Solar deity, sometimes called the daughter of the sun god Ra and often associated with the goddesses Hathor and Bast. ... To pacify Sekhmet, festivals were celebrated at the end of battle, so that the destruction would come to an end. During an annual festival held at the beginning of the year, a festival of intoxication, the Egyptians danced and played music to soothe the wildness of the goddess and drank great quantities of wine ritually to imitate the extreme drunkenness that stopped the wrath of the goddess—when she almost destroyed humanity. ... In a myth about the end of Ra's rule on the earth, Ra sends Hathor or Sekhmet to destroy mortals who conspired against him. In the myth, Sekhmet's blood-lust was not quelled at the end of battle and led to her destroying almost all of humanity ...
This myth can be illustrated as the lion (Sekhmet) and the sun (Re-Horakhty). The emblem of lion and sun appears to be common throughout multiple cultures, although with different meanings depending on the era and the location.
On to Eye of Ra: Wikipedia wrote:
The Egyptians often referred to the sun and the moon as the "eye"s of particular gods. ... Tefnut, the creator god is said to have shed tears, although whether they are prompted by happiness at his children's return or distress at the Eye's anger is unclear. ... In a variant of the story, it is the Eye that weeps instead, so the Eye is the progenitor of humankind. ... The tears of the Eye of Ra are part of a more general connection between the Eye and moisture. ... at the start of the Egyptian year, Sothis' heliacal rising, in which the star rose above the horizon just before the sun itself, heralded the start of the Nile inundation, which watered and fertilized Egypt's farmland. Therefore, the Eye of Ra precedes and represents the floodwaters that restore fertility to all of Egypt. Tears of the Bazaar?
Wikipedia wrote:
The Eye of Ra also represents the destructive aspect of Ra's power: the heat of the sun, which in Egypt can be so harsh that the Egyptians sometimes likened it to arrows shot by a god to destroy evildoers. Judgement of who Is and Is-Not?
Wikipedia wrote:
Ra's enemies are the forces of chaos, which threaten maat, the cosmic order that he creates. They include both humans who spread disorder and cosmic powers... maat = Chains? Revolutionary anarchists and the Liberation of the Night?
Wikipedia wrote:
The Eye's aggression may even extend to deities who, unlike Apep, are not regarded as evil. Evidence in early funerary texts suggests that at dawn, Ra was believed to swallow the multitude of other gods, who in this instance are equated with the stars, which vanish at sunrise and reappear at sunset. In doing so, he absorbs the gods' power, thereby renewing his own vitality, before spitting them out again at nightfall. The solar Eye is said to assist in this effort, slaughtering the gods for Ra to eat. The red light of dawn therefore signifies the blood produced by this slaughter. ...
In another myth, related in the Book of the Heavenly Cow from the New Kingdom (c. 1550–1070 BC), Ra uses the Eye as a weapon against humans who have rebelled against his authority. He sends the Eye—Hathor, in her aggressive manifestation as the lioness goddess Sekhmet—to massacre them. ... The solar Eye's volatile nature can make her difficult even for her master to control. In a third myth, known in several variants, the Eye goddess becomes upset with Ra and runs away from him. ... in others her rebellion seems to take place after the world is fully formed.[20] Dimitri Meeks and Christine Favard-Meeks interpret these events as the Eye's reaction to being deceived by Ra after her slaughter of humanity.[21] With the solar Eye gone, Ra is vulnerable to his enemies and bereft of a large part of his power. ... Meanwhile, the Eye wanders in a distant land—Nubia or Libya—as a wild feline, as dangerous and uncontrolled as the forces of chaos that she is meant to subdue. To restore order, one of the gods goes out to retrieve her. ... In a third version, known from a Late Period papyrus dubbed "The Myth of the Eye of the Sun", Thoth, the messenger and conciliator of the Egyptian pantheon, persuades the goddess to return through a combination of lectures, enticement, and entertaining stories. The role of the Masters of the Bazaar? The need for Love stories?
Wikipedia wrote:
When the goddess is at last placated, the retrieving god escorts her back to Egypt. ... The pacified Eye deity is once more a procreative consort for the sun god, or, in some versions of the story, for the god who brings her back. Menhit becomes the consort of Anhur, Tefnut is paired with Shu, and Thoth's spouse is sometimes Nehemtawy, a minor goddess associated with this pacified form of the Eye.[23] In many cases, the Eye goddess and her consort then produce a divine child who becomes the new sun god.
A potential future?
I can see quite a few thematic connections to FL there. [/spoiler] edited by Karhumies on 1/7/2014 edited by Karhumies on 1/7/2014 edited by Karhumies on 1/7/2014
-- Karhumies Author of A Delicious Guide to Fallen London
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 theodor_gylden Posts: 117
1/15/2014
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I've been interested in the matter of the Bazaar and her children, so I've done what I do best -- I've compiled a concordance. There's a significant spoiler from the pursuit of the Marvellous, and material gleaned from Christmas and Hallowmas content, as well as last year's Feast of the Exceptional Rose: http://theodor-gylden.dreamwidth.org/16037.html
There are pieces of a puzzle, I think, waiting to be locked into place. But there are also interesting gaps and questions.
[spoiler]As has already been suggested: the Mountain of Light and Mount Nomad don't seem to be geological features, but entities akin to the Bazaar. Indeed, the Mountain of Light is hinted to be the Bazaar's Daughter who 'lives up high.' Mount Nomad is stated outright to be the Bazaar's Grand-Daughter, fated to 'roam the Zee in silence.'
Fair enough. They'd be fairly unique geological features, in any case. There's the obvious question: How does the Bazaar spawn? If the Bazaar is the mother, so to speak, of the Mountain of Light, was there a father? (Was it the Sun? How did that work?)
What led to this interesting familial arrangement? The Mountain of Light is referred to as the 'Sun's experiment' -- an experiment to what end? The Mountain's Light is said to makes men immortal and gardens bloom underground, and it diamonds saved a man from death at the price of his humanity, but what stake does the Sun have in all of that? What about the Bazaar? And what does it mean, that 'the shames are hers to rule is life'? (No, really. How does that parse grammatically?) And what does this have to do with the Judgments and the citizens of Parabola? It's been said that the boundaries between the real world and Parabola are more malleable here, so far from the Sun. But the citizens of Parabola cannot attain the Mountain any more than they can real sunlight.
Why does Mount Nomad wander, and why has it been so long since 'you' spoke to her in her lacre-vision? What was the source of the 'Grand-Daughter's Rage'? And why are radicals and escaped prisoners interested in her? That flicker of light like a gaslamp -- is that Mount Nomad's own, a dimmer echo of the Mountain of Light? Or does someone really live on the Wandering Mountain? Does she have Masters of her own?
On that note. The theory, for a while, was that the Bazaar consumes love and stories of love for sustenance. That was simply the kind of creature it was. Now I'm not so certain -- but supposing it is, do the Mountain of Light and Mount Nomad also require love stories, and agents to provide them love stories? Or do they have appetites of their own?
I have ideas, or the beginnings of ideas, but I'm interested to see what other people think.[/spoiler]
-- Journal: http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/echo_theodor Annotations & Epistles: http://theodor-gylden.dreamwidth.org/ Storylet: http://theodor-gylden.dreamwidth.org/11160.html
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 marcmagus Posts: 168
7/2/2015
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TheThirdPolice wrote:
EDIT: Speaking of red flowers, there's a passage in which a Fingerking appears as a white rose, then a red rose for an instant. Did the Fourth City call the Fingerkings Rosers? edited by TheThirdPolice on 7/2/2015
That's not how I read what I learned in the Cave of the Nadir (Losing and An Unlikely Garden). There might be content elsewhere that proves me wrong, but from what I read here I think the Rosers were people rather than Fingerkings.
[spoiler]They warred against the Fourth City and were enemies of the Khans. They certainly knew the route to Nadir, and presumably to Parabola as well.
I thought I remembered something suggesting an alliance with or worship of the Fingerkings, but I can't find it. All I have is the above, and that they ultimately lost, and those who didn't flee the city were fed to the Bazaar.[/spoiler] edited by marcmagus on 7/2/2015
-- marcmagus, a scholar of the Correspondence of some minor note and bold explorer of the new Unterzee.
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 Nathanael S. Wells Posts: 80
12/26/2013
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I just noticed St. Meliflua is the patron saint of devils. Perhaps there is a connection to the bee theme? "Mellis" and "fluo" mean honey and flow respectively.
-- Nathanael S. Wells, the Epicurean Polymath.
Founder and Patron of the Damnation Army, a philanthropic society devoted towards bringing food and clothes to the destitute and impoverished Seekers! Consider donating food (no Rubbery Lumps, please!) or clothes (no Veils-Velvet, please! We don't need another incident.)
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 Theus Posts: 311
12/26/2013
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[spoiler] There are not 12 "living" Masters, and it behooves them to inflate their numbers. We know of Apples, Cups, Fires, Hearts, Iron, Pages, Spices, Stones, and Veils. We presume these to each be distinct beings. Then there is Eaten. [/spoiler]
-- http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Hefty~Harrison
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 Nathanael S. Wells Posts: 80
12/26/2013
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I think it's confirmed that the Capering Relicker is a First City resident, the uncle of the Priest-King, no less. And also the first to brew Hesperidean Cider.
Ah, yes...Hesperidean Cider. Apparently doesn't so much make you immortal as gives you some sort of "vision", which then leads to immortality. All I know about it.
-- Nathanael S. Wells, the Epicurean Polymath.
Founder and Patron of the Damnation Army, a philanthropic society devoted towards bringing food and clothes to the destitute and impoverished Seekers! Consider donating food (no Rubbery Lumps, please!) or clothes (no Veils-Velvet, please! We don't need another incident.)
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 Nathanael S. Wells Posts: 80
12/24/2013
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I fully understand Alexis. Some of my most vigorous theorising comes from Fate-locked content and it breaks my heart not to be able to speak openly about it, but ultimately the Fallen London world is a generosity of the author towards us the readers and also a product offered and sold; both imply a courtesy we must adhere to in the way we treat the story.
Plus, if all secrets of the Neath were bared on a single page for everyone to read, what good would that do for us?
Is it not the mystery, the theories, the vagueness, the chance for several and no right answers and our ability to unearth some truths of our own that brings us here?
We must be aware that it is the authors who wrote the story (tautology, ho) and we are not entitled to full knowledge. But they've been generous with the way they've allowed us to conregate and share our theories. Keep in mind how many spoilers there are just on the front page of the Salon subforum!
On this Sackmas of 1888, let us not be ingrates, and don't let Mr Sacks take away your fun or anyone elses.
God bless us, everyone! No matter how dead or thunderous. edited by Nathanael S. Wells on 12/24/2013
-- Nathanael S. Wells, the Epicurean Polymath.
Founder and Patron of the Damnation Army, a philanthropic society devoted towards bringing food and clothes to the destitute and impoverished Seekers! Consider donating food (no Rubbery Lumps, please!) or clothes (no Veils-Velvet, please! We don't need another incident.)
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 Pyrodinium Posts: 639
12/24/2013
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I don't think the devils are in the powerful category. [spoiler] They hurt like hell (pun intended) by I did kill one during the earlier missions (with a lot of day offs though). Unless of course, the text implies, they respawn or something.[/spoiler]
edited by Pyrodinium on 12/24/2013 edited by Pyrodinium on 12/24/2013
-- My profiles: http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Pyrodinium (A Monster hunter on the hunt of his twin brother's killer. Overprotective dad of his twin's daughter) http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Rudolph~of~Taured (an indeterminate person of potentially rubbery lineage) * All social actions except photographers and loitering welcome!
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 Elene Posts: 184
12/24/2013
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Do the Judgements count? I don't think they are actually in the neath though, so I'm not sure.
-- Elene: Generally open for invitations. No cats or Photographers though. May or may not actually be Mr Wines.
Associates: Grey Colors, Elene2
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 OPG Posts: 387
12/24/2013
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A reply to Mr. Wells' speculation on the Number Seven: Perhaps it is similar to the Rule of Three from the Planescape cosmology, where things often occur in threes because that's just how the cosmos works.
-- overpoweredginger, an irresistible, magnificent, midnight and sagacious gentleman.
A Fallen London Roleplay Community exists. Contrary to popular belief, Richard Nixon is not involved.
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 Laluzi Posts: 456
12/24/2013
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Hmm. There's a connection with the Correspondence, true. But I would argue back that [spoiler]Mr Eaten was a Master, and the Masters are not gods. Furthermore, I was under the impression that the Thunder had died before the Bazaar came to the Neath, and Mr Eaten has a fairly clear point of death in the Third City. The Bloody Ivy vines in early SMEN are a further extension of seeking the Correspondence; there's no further motif of vines. The knives, one could argue, are a common thing in rituals - they were certainly used in the 'killing' of Mr Eaten. And the Correspondence itself is a pretty widespread thing in Fallen London; it's related to much more than the Thunder and Mr Eaten; the Masters and the Bazaar, for starters. For that matter, the Correspondence in Seeking is mostly forgotten after one finds the symbol for a number of candles. That, and the fact that Mr Eaten's name was once a symbol in the Correspondence, are really the only two things of note there.
Also, in the mind of a long-dead god, the Thunder demands sacrifice from those trying to go North. Mr Eaten's dreams compel you to go North. It seems a bit counterproductive to usher your followers somewhere, then sink their ship along the way. Granted, Seeking the Name involves a lot of sacrifice, but the 'I laugh in their faces' part implies a certain derision.
Lastly, the dreams of Mr Eaten and the dreams of the Thunder are two distinct dream lines. They don't intertwine or meet together. If they were one and the same, I don't really see this being the case.
I don't mean to put down your hypotheses; I just don't think this is the thread for very loose speculation, and that's a connection that I'm really not seeing.[/spoiler]
-- Feel free to ask if you need something! Uninterested in Trailing the Affluent Photographer. Mercer - an enigmatic and brutal individual. Frightfully strong. Has even more frightful manners.
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 David Lombard Posts: 79
12/24/2013
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Delicious treatise, Nathanael. Bitter, precocious, but never impudent. Like caper-kissed surface-squash blossoms.
-- http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/David~Lombard
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