streetfelineblue
Posts: 1459
9/5/2013
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Specifically, lucratively grinding Watchful (and Persuasive). That is: when the stat cap is raised (something that seems to be happening quite a lot as of late), when I haven't any specific need for a good or a connection, I can easily do the Affair of the Box to grind Shadowy and the Velocipede Squad for Dangerous, netting a hefty income in Echoes (the Affair of the Box has the added treat of increasing Empire's Kingmaker, though I never actually used it for anything ^^). Persuasive doesn't really have such an alternative, but it does provide better alternatives to simply spamming Unfinished Business in the form of work at Mahogany Hall (the Pygmalion ventures always net more than 1 Echo per action).
The big problem is Watchful. For my stats, in London the alternatives to Unfinished Business (like A Colleague with a Problem and The Committee for Semiotic Safety at the University, or Reaping the Academic Benefits and A Tour of the Quarter in the Forgotten Quarter ) all net less than 1 Echo per action, though some give some extra in the form of bonus Connections. In these cases I usually grind Watchful at zee, ususally at Hunter's Keep or Corpsecage Island (I have a knack for collecting Prelapsarian Archaeology work, even though it's not really profitable), but I still miss an easy, affordable source of Watchful based income in London. Am I missing something, or really the only alternative is to grind Debating the Nature of Primordial Shrieks in Unfinished Business and put trust in the rare success to scrap up that little extra Echo?
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lady ciel
Posts: 2548
9/6/2013
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Well seeking curios and secrets in the Forgotten quarter can be reasonably profitable. It is not as reliable as you never know precisely what the result will be and you do have to deal with nightmares.
I know that a lot of the time you get a variable amount of whispered secrets (but even there you can get up to nearly 300 sometimes) and Relics of the Fourth City. So I think it probably evens out to around an echo an action. Plus you can get rare successes on some of the options - the eyeless skull, pulsating amber, and one gives a brass ring and some amanita sherry
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ciel
Sorry RL means I am not a very active player at the moment. No social actions unless you are prepared to wait and definitely no sparring or other mult-action things.
No Calling Cards or boxed cats please. Will take dupes on the affluent photographers. Other social invitations welcome. Parabolan Kittens usually available, send me an in-game social action saying you want one and I will get one to you as soon as possible.
storynexus name - reveurciel
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streetfelineblue
Posts: 1459
9/6/2013
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Sure it is slightly more varied than a blind grind, but for that very same reason I was I bit cautious in using it - with the Airs of the Forgotten Quarter constantly changing, it was a continous come-and-go to the wiki to decide which action to take XD
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Flyte
Administrator
Posts: 671
9/6/2013
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A guide to grinding stats and Echoes in the Forgotten Quarter:
- Put The Airs of the Forgotten Quarter on your Mantelpiece, so you can check its numerical value by visiting your profile.
- Repeatedly play the Seeking Curios and Secrets in the Forgotten Quarter storylet. Often you will only have one option (ignoring the Aristocratic Academic). If you have to choose, See the sights rather than Speak to private individuals, and Speak to private individuals in preference to A meeting with the Dean.
- If you have the Hell's coursers option, check the value of The Airs of the Forgotten Quarter. If it is 96+, it's time to go on an Expedition. Otherwise, select Hell's coursers and repeat step 2.
- Trade in Whispered Secrets for 20+ supplies, then Seek a shrine of the Deep Blue Heaven. Choose the A sign? option. It gives you four Progress for free. Then pursue the Expedition as normal. (Either use the safe two Supplies option, or use Sudden Insights and cancel if you fail the Watchful check on the first attempt. Supplies are too expensive to waste.)
- Collect your Unpredictable Treasure/Eyeless Skull and return to step 1.
This will raise all your stats, with a focus on Watchful. It's more profitable than Unfinished Business and gives more interesting items.
If you run out of Whispered Secrets, try bartering for them with the Tiger Keeper, who will give 1100 in exchange for 1000 Jade, Deep Amber or Rostygold. Grind Jade through Unfinished Business if you want to raise Dangerous/get the most Echoes per action, or Deep Amber at Mahogany Hall if you'd rather raise Persuasive.
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circe
Posts: 435
9/6/2013
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That is very useful. Thanks
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Lady Circe in Fallen London - http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Lady~Circe
Adding no Suppers without prior arrangement, with only 5 Free Evenings a week and being a Patron I can't accept them all.
No Affluent Photographer, Sharing Research with Another Scholar or Boxed Cats accepted. I will send Boxed Cats though. All other social actions welcome. Will help menaces, please be reasonable.
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streetfelineblue
Posts: 1459
9/6/2013
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That was... Just about what I was looking for! Thank you, I had my fair share of expedition to raise Archaeologist for the Nadir, but I never really bothered to scientifically run down the exact better behaviour to optimize actions *_* Whispered Secrets are not a problem at all, I always keep a stash of at least 20.000, but in the end I ususally buy provisions with Prelapsarian Archaeology notes that I always have in bulk (Prelapsarian Archaeology is my character's kink XD).
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Flyte
Administrator
Posts: 671
9/6/2013
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A couple more observations: first, the Airs trick is something of an exploit, and I wouldn't be surprised if Alexis gets round to closing it. Randomising the Airs when you embark on an Expedition would do the trick.
Second, you'll need to take steps to contain your Nightmares; See the sights increases them, so if you have trouble on this score you might want to Speak with private individuals instead when the option's available.
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Corran
Posts: 401
9/18/2013
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What to do with Dangerous though when you no longer have access to the Velocipede Squad?
I burned my bridges with them a long time ago and for now have been increasing Dangerous (my lowest level stat at 177) by grinding some Unfinished Business, getting Infernal Contract to use as a Shepherd Of Souls.
I'm predicting a 20 level drop of Dangerous in my future and I'm not sure if there are any better (and more fun) ways of increasing it. Dueling the Black Ribbon doesn't really pay, does it?
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streetfelineblue
Posts: 1459
9/18/2013
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Corran wrote:
What to do with Dangerous though when you no longer have access to the Velocipede Squad?
I burned my bridges with them a long time ago and for now have been increasing Dangerous (my lowest level stat at 177) by grinding some Unfinished Business, getting Infernal Contract to use as a Shepherd Of Souls.
I'm predicting a 20 level drop of Dangerous in my future and I'm not sure if there are any better (and more fun) ways of increasing it. Dueling the Black Ribbon doesn't really pay, does it?
Well, the Labyrinth of Tigers (Coil 2) gives something more than 1 Echo per action - around 1 Echo for the first actions, with a larger reward on the last action of the carousel. Alternatviely, you could do some Wars of Assassins - they're not very profitable, but they do give some unique rewards, like Use of Villains, that can then be stashed in case of future use.
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Twitter: @streetfelineblu
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Link to Ocelot's Enigma Ambition hint page; PM for clarification. No direct solutions provided.
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Dr. Hieronymous Alloy
Posts: 228
10/27/2013
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Flyte wrote:
A guide to grinding stats and Echoes in the Forgotten Quarter:
- Put The Airs of the Forgotten Quarter on your Mantelpiece, so you can check its numerical value by visiting your profile.
- Repeatedly play the Seeking Curios and Secrets in the Forgotten Quarter storylet. Often you will only have one option (ignoring the Aristocratic Academic). If you have to choose, See the sights rather than Speak to private individuals, and Speak to private individuals in preference to A meeting with the Dean.
- If you have the Hell's coursers option, check the value of The Airs of the Forgotten Quarter. If it is 96+, it's time to go on an Expedition. Otherwise, select Hell's coursers and repeat step 2.
- Trade in Whispered Secrets for 20+ supplies, then Seek a shrine of the Deep Blue Heaven. Choose the A sign? option. It gives you four Progress for free. Then pursue the Expedition as normal. (Either use the safe two Supplies option, or use Sudden Insights and cancel if you fail the Watchful check on the first attempt. Supplies are too expensive to waste.)
- Collect your Unpredictable Treasure/Eyeless Skull and return to step 1.
This will raise all your stats, with a focus on Watchful. It's more profitable than Unfinished Business and gives more interesting items.
If you run out of Whispered Secrets, try bartering for them with the Tiger Keeper, who will give 1100 in exchange for 1000 Jade, Deep Amber or Rostygold. Grind Jade through Unfinished Business if you want to raise Dangerous/get the most Echoes per action, or Deep Amber at Mahogany Hall if you'd rather raise Persuasive.
This is a really great little thumbnail guide and thanks a bunch for posting it; almost everything out there focuses on post-POSI so something I can grind as a mere Person of Some Little Consequence is really useful. One addition is that there's a great interaction with the "Locate a Deranged Medium" storylet from the Implacable Detective's Business Card.
[spoiler]
If you run the "Locate a Deranged Medium" storylet from the Implacable Detective's Business Card in parallel, using Memories of Light to go to the Mirror Marches every time the Forgotten Quarter actions give you too many nightmares, you can make a tidy profit on the side while you burn the nightmares off in the Mirror Marches. Just make sure that when "Mouse: So little Time" hits 6 you turn to grinding forgotten quarter, let your nightmares rise, then use the Ivory Frame option in the Marches. Do this right and you'll get 30 Memories of Light and an Antique Mystery just about every time you run through the Mirror Marches[/spoiler].
edited by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy on 10/27/2013
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Flyte
Administrator
Posts: 671
10/27/2013
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Dr. Hieronymous Alloy wrote:
This is a really great little thumbnail guide and thanks a bunch for posting it; almost everything out there focuses on post-POSI so something I can grind as a mere Person of Some Little Consequence is really useful. One addition is that there's a great interaction with the "Locate a Deranged Medium" storylet from the Implacable Detective's Business Card. You're welcome! If you have time, how about adding a guide to the wiki for people at your level with the Forgotten Quarter/Mirror Marches stuff?
edited by Flyte on 10/27/2013
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Dr. Hieronymous Alloy
Posts: 228
11/2/2013
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Flyte wrote:
Dr. Hieronymous Alloy wrote:
This is a really great little thumbnail guide and thanks a bunch for posting it; almost everything out there focuses on post-POSI so something I can grind as a mere Person of Some Little Consequence is really useful. One addition is that there's a great interaction with the "Locate a Deranged Medium" storylet from the Implacable Detective's Business Card. You're welcome! If you have time, how about adding a guide to the wiki for people at your level with the Forgotten Quarter/Mirror Marches stuff?
edited by Flyte on 10/27/2013
Yikes! I'm hesitant to delve into wiki editing because each wiki always has standards and preferred formatting and so forth and I haven't been around long enough to learn those before I delve straight into writing up a major article like that; plus, I haven't actually been recording what the skill levels are for the various challenges and that would seem essential information for such an article.
The only additions I'd make beyond what's already been posted are as follows:
1) You should get enough Whispered and Appalling secrets from this grind to buy all the expedition supplies you need. Don't spend echoes on supplies; the numbers seem to work out such that you average profitable if you just use secrets, but will lose echoes on the balance if you buy supplies with cash.
2) This method is *very* erratic. It's possible to make over 200 echoes in a weekend with a run of good luck, or to go for a week with minimal results or even lose money if you roll poorly for Unpredictable Treasures on your expeditions and don't get any eyeless skulls. Each of the revolving actions under Curios & Secrets can give a reward varying from less than .1 to slightly over 2 echoes, while the reward from an single expedition can be as low as 12 echoes to as high as 640 (for a better result on fate-locked expeditions). Overall it seems like the reward is *probably* comparable to the post-POSI options -- a little over an echo per action average, plus opportunities for BIG bonus items-- with the drawback that you build up a lot of Nightmares. I haven't actually been tracking and measuring my results scientifically, though.
3) "Seeking a Deranged Medium" every time you go through the Mirror-Marches to burn off your Nightmares is going to gain you an Antique Mystery about four-fifths of the time and 30 Memories of Light almost every time. It's going to cost you 13 actions (none of which will raise skills, and four of which will also lower nightmares) as well as 200 Cryptic Clues and an Implacable Detective's Business Card, each time. Again, just as with comment #2, that's just my personal estimates -- your results may vary, I didn't actually record and measure, etc.
4) If you're trying to get 5 Eyeless Skulls for the Cave of the Nadir, it's good to do that *early*, before you have over 75 "base" scores in watchful, persuasion, shadowy, and dangerous. Reason being, you can use a Talkative Rattus Faber to wipe away the harmful cards that the Eyes give, so long as you can push the relevant stat below 50.
edited by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy on 11/2/2013
edited by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy on 11/2/2013
edited by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy on 11/2/2013
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Laluzi
Posts: 456
11/2/2013
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Quite a useful post, but with one minor change; hasn't the Skull's minimum skill requirement been changed to 60? I distinctly remember only drawing the Dangerous card when I had one, and it had a minimum requirement of 60.
Also, Flyte's post is made out of excellent.
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Feel free to ask if you need something! Uninterested in Trailing the Affluent Photographer.
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Dr. Hieronymous Alloy
Posts: 228
11/3/2013
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Laluzi wrote:
Quite a useful post, but with one minor change; hasn't the Skull's minimum skill requirement been changed to 60? I distinctly remember only drawing the Dangerous card when I had one, and it had a minimum requirement of 60.
Also, Flyte's post is made out of excellent.
Just checked in my inventory -- the Watchful skull at least is unlocked with Watchful 50. Maybe it changed back?
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Aximillio
Posts: 1251
12/13/2013
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Just as a note - you don't need 5 skulls for the Nadir, one is sufficient, assuming you have enough Echoes to buy the cinder.
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Possibly returned after a long hiatus. Please do not send live rats or tournament requests.
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Karaeir
Posts: 90
12/13/2013
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You can also get it if you have high connected: revolutionaries. You need 100, and it will get reduced to 50.
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Karaeir, an inescapable, sagacious, midnight and sinister lady
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Trodgmey
Posts: 164
12/17/2013
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I've felt for a couple months now that for a near-max (~180) Watchful character, the Corpsecage Island/Shrine of the Deep Blue Heaven loop was particularly lucrative, but the sheer number of possible rewards made it very difficult for me to pin down. I'll get into the math below, but the summary is that the loop appears to average >1.5 echoes/action.
The general loop goes something like this:
Zee voyage to Corpsecage Island, and on the island, select the following actions:
Digging up bones and rough justice
What's written here?
See what you can dig up
A message long cold
The shore near the jetty
Writing it all down
Tarry a little (because of the odds, I calculate this as yielding 15 prelapsarian archaeological notes on average)
Depart
That's a 22 action run, which if all successful (with the "tarry a little" caveat), will yield 418 cryptic clues, 264 prelapsarian archaeological notes, 40 map scraps, 125 proscribed material, and 1 zee story.
Loop on this and a zee voyage (my average action count: 23.5 actions and an average of about 1 echo worth of value from cards) as long as you can stand. If you just loop once and head back to London, it's the 45.5 actions needed to loop, plus the extra 23.5 to get back. The more loops you do without returning to London, the more the cost of that extra voyage drops. For these calculations, I leave it out, because theoretically you could do 100 loops and make that cost .235 actions per loop.
Once back, convert all of your prelapsarian archaeological notes into expedition supplies (1 action + 10 notes => 1 supply). Then complete the Shrine of the Deep Blue Heaven loop as quickly as you can. Based on techniques discussed elsewhere, you can reasonably easily get this as low as costing 18 supplies and 8 actions.
Based on 21 loops where I collected data, the average sale value of the treasure came out to 66.675 echoes (not including the one time I got an Eyeless Skull, which is excluded for hopefully obvious reasons). That ranges from the paltry return of 1 Storm Threnody and 200 Whispered Secrets (14.5 echoes, one time out of 21 tries) to the mega haul of two Night Whispers (125 echoes, six times out of 21), with the most common result being somewhere between 30 and 62.5 echoes.
This took me a bit of time with my LibreOffice spreadsheet and converting units. Start with the expedition treasure alone it comes to around 57 actions/expedition, which if just compared with the 66.675 average result is paltry. However, the Corpsecage Island loop and the zee voyages, if effectively normalized out for just the actions it takes to gather the supplies for one expedition, give you an additional 20 echoes. Add that in to your treasure haul and split it over the 57 actions, and my result is about 1.52 echoes per action, and a set of loops that at least gives you a bit of variety in your grinding.
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Trodgmey -- an otherwise pleasant chap with a peculiar obsession with the first four cities.
http://www.fallenlondon.com/Profile/Trodgmey
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Inky Petrel
Posts: 370
12/17/2013
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That's a fantastic guide, thank you! I feel it might be time to head to Zee again.
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Re: Fallen London, please don't invite me to things or send me things, I'm only on occasionally, so you will waste your candle  Thank you.
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Dr. Hieronymous Alloy
Posts: 228
12/17/2013
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Michael Bacon wrote:
I've felt for a couple months now that for a near-max (~180) Watchful character, the Corpsecage Island/Shrine of the Deep Blue Heaven loop was particularly lucrative, but the sheer number of possible rewards made it very difficult for me to pin down. I'll get into the math below, but the summary is that the loop appears to average >1.5 echoes/action.
. . .
This took me a bit of time with my LibreOffice spreadsheet and converting units. Start with the expedition treasure alone it comes to around 57 actions/expedition, which if just compared with the 66.675 average result is paltry. However, the Corpsecage Island loop and the zee voyages, if effectively normalized out for just the actions it takes to gather the supplies for one expedition, give you an additional 20 echoes. Add that in to your treasure haul and split it over the 57 actions, and my result is about 1.52 echoes per action, and a set of loops that at least gives you a bit of variety in your grinding.
Nice work, really interesting guide. I guess the real question is what's the "break even" point in repeated loops where the cost of doing the zee voyage can be discounted. I mean, theoretically yes, 100 loops, but in practice you're going to do, what. . maybe 25 to 30 loops of Corpsecage or so at most? (based on five or six days at five loops per day, figuring you'll want to get back to London for your weekly reward).
Regardless though this sounds like a great way to grind my Watchful the rest of the way to 200!
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Trodgmey
Posts: 164
12/17/2013
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Dr. Hieronymous Alloy wrote:
Nice work, really interesting guide. I guess the real question is what's the "break even" point in repeated loops where the cost of doing the zee voyage can be discounted. I mean, theoretically yes, 100 loops, but in practice you're going to do, what. . maybe 25 to 30 loops of Corpsecage or so at most? (based on five or six days at five loops per day, figuring you'll want to get back to London for your weekly reward).
Regardless though this sounds like a great way to grind my Watchful the rest of the way to 200!
I generally would do about 10-12 loops before heading back to London. It might technically bring the reward figure down below 1.5/action, but I found it a more entertaining grind personally, because the zee voyages are a bit unpredictable and the rewards for the Shrine expedition were too. And we are doing this to have fun, right? 
I would also add that the Shrine loop gives you much higher level items than some of the other grind loops, which are often more useful than, say, hundreds of thousands of whispered secrets. So yes, if your goal is to grind for Hesperidian Cider or something, there are probably better ways to do this, but the combination of variety, return, and entertainment I think this is a good one.
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Trodgmey -- an otherwise pleasant chap with a peculiar obsession with the first four cities.
http://www.fallenlondon.com/Profile/Trodgmey
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