Flyte
Administrator
Posts: 671
8/4/2013
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In this thread: incursions of films, fiction, or the like into the Fifth City. Quotations and commentary are good. To start, a gimme and a slightly harder one.
Most of the recurring dreams are named after the five sections of T S Eliot's The Waste Land. The dreams and sections mostly don't have much in common, although 'Death by Water' describes a drowned man. When you ask Schlomo about particular dreams, his less comprehensible remarks are mostly remixed lines from the poem. You can even get him to quote The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock. Then there's the five unreal cities with falling towers... and probably a bunch of other references and parallels.
The Hound of Heaven is a charming poem about someone trying to escape an Overgoat*:
I FLED Him, down the nights and down the days;
I fled Him, down the arches of the years;
I fled Him, down the labyrinthine ways
Of my own mind ....
...
From those strong Feet that followed, followed after.
But with unhurrying chase,
And unperturbèd pace,
Deliberate speed, majestic instancy,
They beat—and a Voice bleat**
More instant than the Feet—
‘All things betray thee, who betrayest Me.’
* Alternative readings may be possible, and even make more sense.
** A slight textual amendation. I am allowed to do this because I read a book by a philologist once.
edited by Flyte on 8/4/2013
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Polycarp
Posts: 16
12/20/2014
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If you look closely at the Old London Street Sign picture, you'll see it says "Hobbs Lane SW1". This is a reference to "Quatermass and the Pit", which starts with the discovery of a Martian space ship during building work in (fictional) Hobbs Lane, which in the story can be found in Knightsbridge.
That picture is from the original 1958 version and matches the Fallen London postcode. The later film version relocated Hobbs Lane to W10.
edited by Polycarp on 12/20/2014
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Polycarp: Are your ears burning? Maybe I can help.
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RandomWalker
Posts: 948
12/27/2014
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Okay, so the trains in the UK were a nightmare today. With nothing better to do, I decided to read Eliot's The Waste Land again, and I came across another little snippet. Compare:
The awful daring of a moment’s surrender
Which an age of prudence can never retract
(it's in the 'What the Thunder Said' section, lines 403-404)
With:
The awful daring of a moment's supposition which an age of ignorance can never deny.
(Description text of the Dreadful Surmise)
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baudelairean
Posts: 3
12/30/2014
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I recently found some Clay Men connections at Mahogany Hall that I would have missed had I not been poking around in Greek mythology, as one does. Hopefully they're not too obvious to merit mentioning.
I think many people are familiar with Pygmalion and Galatea (a hit production at Mahogany Hall, as we're told, hilariously followed by a fate-locked storyline with obvious My Fair Lady roots) but, interestingly enough, the Clay Men associated with the 'Provide master-classes in etiquette' storylines have another link to the mythological sculpture come to life.
Polyphemus (sound familiar?) AKA the cyclops who Odysseus stabs in the eye, is also associated with a now lost play by Philoxenus of Cythera, where Polyphemus falls in love with Galatea, but she prefers a human lover over him. There are some overtones of the sad fate of the Comtessa in these myths too, I think.
edited by baudelairean on 12/30/2014
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Loon
Posts: 379
1/28/2015
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I'm on Corpsecage Island, and seem to have just found Marx's Capital, apparently he was exiled there. It works with the dates, he died in 1883.
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My main character Krawald can be found at http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Krawald and welcomes all social actions bar photographers.
My alt Loogan Cuthoat can be found at http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Loogan~Cuthoat and welcomes all social actions bar cats and photographers.
My alt Ally Mooney can be found at http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Ally~Mooney and welcomes all social actions including patronage, though they are a bit confused by cats in boxes.
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Fairweather
Posts: 86
1/6/2015
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I noticed a clear reference to Yeats' The Cloths of Heaven in Penstock's Wicket today.
"Tread softly," he says, "for you tread in her dreams."
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P. Fairweather - One time wild child, turned Correspondence obsessive. Just don't ask her what the 'P' stands for.
Aurora Chasseresse - A little rough round the edges, but there's no one you'd want more in a hunting party... or zee shanty sing-a-long
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Marianne Anders
Posts: 127
1/23/2015
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The present life of man, O king, seems to me like to the swift flight of a sparrow through the room wherein you sit at supper in winter, with your commanders and ministers, and a good fire in the midst, whilst the storms of rain and snow prevail abroad; the sparrow, I say, flying in at one door, and immediately out at another, whilst he is within, is safe from the wintry storm; but after a short space of fair weather, he immediately vanishes out of your sight, into the dark winter from which he had emerged.
That's the Noman text. It's from the Venerable Bede, and it's a paraphrase of some of the advice given to a British king about converting to Christianity. what it's missing:
" So this life of man appears for a short space, but of what went before, or what is to follow, we are utterly ignorant. If, therefore, this new doctrine contains something more certain, it seems justly to deserve to be followed."
also the Honey-Addled Detective is Sherlock Holmes, and I venture to guess that the Implacable Detective is Miss Marple.
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Not all who wander are lost. Sometimes, they are very lost.
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Marianne~Anders
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Thallo
Posts: 5
1/29/2015
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I'm a fan of the Yeats and Tennyson references that were previously mentioned, but one of my very favorites that I haven't yet seen anyone point out is that when you become a Watcher via the Great Game, the text is "they also serve who only stand and watch"--which is a twist on the last line of Milton's "On His Blindness" ("they also serve who only stand and wait"). I was quite pleased by the allusion.
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An irresistible, breathtaking, inescapable and sagacious lady.
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Rook Crofton
Posts: 83
12/29/2014
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The Glassman's weekly reward is titled, "A Bringer of New Things," which is a snippet from Tennyson's "Ulysses."
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Rook Crofton: dreamer, antiquarian, mystic
Now a Scarlet Saint. Happy to send anyone an invite to the Temple Club.
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Cotton Dee
Posts: 76
12/21/2014
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Another one: Getting unlucky on the libraryette for Mr Pages card yields a storylet entitled "April is the cruelest month". (also T.S Eliot)
Also, from the sidebar text, on the subject of The Vake: "They say it's not a monster at all. It's a man who dresses up as a bat. To, ah, prowl the city by night. But that would just be stupid."
Another storylet, this time from Stealing Paintings From The Topsy King, involves the player and ropes. It is entitled "Like a spider-y sort of man"
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Henry Lamperouge may be found here...
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Henry~Lamperouge
Current Grind: 1/42 Presumptious Little Opportunites
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Waylander
Posts: 56
2/21/2015
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I love the reference in sunless sea to Indiana Jones, the one about the outlandish artefact. "This belongs in a museum! Assuming that colonial-imperial appropriation for the purpose of hegemonic taxonomisation is a suitable response to the problem of intercultural contact. Which it probably is, because museums are magnificent institutions."
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http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Wilson~Vetenari
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RandomWalker
Posts: 948
1/24/2015
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Hardly seems worth mentioning, but the action of cashing in watchful second chances for improvements in watchful refers to dreams and a gate of horn. This goes back to Homer and The Odyssey, where true dreams are said to come through a gate of horn, and false ones through a gate of ivory (it's a pun in Ancient Greek, apparently).
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ochrasy
Posts: 169
2/23/2015
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this may be incredibly far-fetched, but in Les Miserables Javert sings Stars (...) filling the darkness with order and light
You are the sentinels
Silent and sure
Keeping watch in the night
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Ochrasy. Monster-Hunter. Dangerous and Watchful, favors the Constables.
Robitaille. Persuasive and Shadowy, fond of the Devils.
Herr Horst. Seeker of Revenge.
Open to all social actions on all accounts. Preferably, send any MW-providing actions to Ochrasy.
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Marianne Anders
Posts: 127
2/24/2015
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it's a good description of what they do, that's for sure. and Javert's a good example of what happens when all you have are rules.
I kinda think the Neath would make him happy, though, because it would just prove his point that if you leave a bunch of criminals to themselves they only enact more crime.
ha. now I'm gonna imagine a Javert-dragon.
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Not all who wander are lost. Sometimes, they are very lost.
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Marianne~Anders
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Lord Hoot
Posts: 47
5/6/2015
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Here's a possible one: The Allegory of Parabola is a tale of mysterious origin, detailing one person's travel through a perplexing dream world.
It's become a key text in the study of late Renaissance alchemy and Christian mysticism.
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Dawson
Posts: 137
8/5/2013
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One that comes to mind off the top; "through a glass, darkly", the fidgeting writer storylet, is a reference to a bible passage; 1 Corinthians 13:12, or possibly one of the sundry works of art that reference it also.
Also: I'd always been curious as to whether the thief-character Fast Hetty was a possible reference to the classic-lineup Motörhead guitarist? I kind of hope that's the case.
edited by Dawson on 8/5/2013
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Flyte
Administrator
Posts: 671
8/5/2013
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So... the Calendar Council is a reference to the anarchists' General Council in The Man Who Was Thursday. In Neil Gaiman's Sandman, on a shelf of unwritten books in the realm of dream: G K Chesterton's The Man Who Was October.
A reference, or just parallel thinking?
edited by Flyte on 8/5/2013
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Polycarp
Posts: 16
1/5/2015
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There may be, in the easiest Lost Quarter expedition, a reference to Sir Richard Fanshawe's translation of The Faithful Shepherd http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Il_pastor_fido.
If you choose the Seal of the Hooded Hawk, some touching love stories are among the recovered loot. Guarini's play is very much one of those. Fanshawe's translation contains this:
See him laugh'd at! See him baffeld!
As a hooded hawk or owl,
With light blinded, when the fowl
With their armies flock about her,
Some to beat and some to flout her...
Bit of a stretch but it's a lovely play and I have seen more obscure references around.
edited by Polycarp on 1/5/2015
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Polycarp: Are your ears burning? Maybe I can help.
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Cotton Dee
Posts: 76
2/3/2015
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More references I picked up on at 5AM this morning;
The Dilmun Club is so named after the Dilmun Civilization, thought to be one of the oldest empires of the middle east, and the original Garden Of Eden.
As a bonus, it also serves as an initialism:
Death
Isn't
Less
Meaningful
Under
Neath
More things: Failure on the luck challenge where you talk to Doctor Schlomo about your nightmares has him tell you: "This music crept by you upon the waters, didn't it?" (T.S Eliot, The Wasteland, again)
edited by Cotton Dee on 2/3/2015
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Henry Lamperouge may be found here...
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Henry~Lamperouge
Current Grind: 1/42 Presumptious Little Opportunites
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Marianne Anders
Posts: 127
2/5/2015
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I probably should sign all my posts "an overexcited English major". so close to getting a degree. so close.
The Great Game is pretty definitely a reference to spies. and spying. I'm not sure about the particular characters, though.
not
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Not all who wander are lost. Sometimes, they are very lost.
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Marianne~Anders
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Diptych
Administrator
Posts: 3493
2/5/2015
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Marianne Anders wrote:
*nodnod* I come from a tumblr-formed racecasting sensibility, and that methodology basically goes "if it's possible to racebend it, racebend it!" I mean, granted, authentic Agatha Christie is going to be very much based on white uppermiddleclass Britain of the 1920s-30s. but the essentials of Miss Marple as a fluffy old lady who solves crimes by virtue of her great experience with human nature - that could be anyone.and one of the benefits of this sensibility is that it tends to pick up on historical contexts that would otherwise be ignored. I mean, black people weren't born yesterday, and they've been in Britain at least since the Roman invasion? link1. link2. link3. All that's required background-wise for Marple is for her to be a gentlewoman from St. Mary Mead and to be nostalgic for the old days...and I think that it'd be super useful for a black person in that situation to be very up on the gossip and skeletons of her community. she could very easily be black, is what I'm saying, and all it would take is a little skewing. sort of the same principle as racebending Hermione Granger. reading the text in that lens gives so many different shades and variations of meaning that it can make the whole work new again.
Honestly, what I think you've done there is describe a Miss Marple a lot more interesting than the Miss Marple we've got! In other words, I am 100% down for that approach (and by no means unfamiliar with, or surprised by, the history of black Britons, given that we're talking about a seafaring, colony-taking, slave-trading power, responsible for mass population displacements and the creation of one-way economic chains.)
And she's totally Shirley Maclaine, yeah. She's Shirley Maclaine as hell.
A fresh observation: happenstance and serendipity having led me to read a bit of, and a bit about, Jorge Luis Borges, well, I never realised how many Borgesian elements make up FL, both in the broad - traitorous translations, narrative labyrinths, and what have you - and in specifics - such as the Writing of the God, which recalls both the Correspondence as a whole and the Corresponding Ocelot in particular. Also, "Jorge Borges" rivals "William (Carlos) Williams" in the "modern writers of the Americas with silly-sounding names" stakes, but that's neither here nor there.
edited by Sir Frederick Tanah-Chook on 2/5/2015
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Sir Frederick, the Libertarian Esotericist. Lord Hubris, the Bloody Baron.
Juniper Brown, the Ill-Fated Orphan. Esther Ellis-Hall, the Fashionable Fabian.
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Marianne Anders
Posts: 127
2/15/2015
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Miss Marples are always just sort of the best. but ahaha, for a moment there i was worried that i was just pointlessly rambling.
...Jorge Borges really should rhyme, but it doesn't.
and oh gosh. I don't actually know my Borges that well.
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Not all who wander are lost. Sometimes, they are very lost.
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Marianne~Anders
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Diptych
Administrator
Posts: 3493
1/23/2015
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She won't literally be Miss Marple, on account of A: she's black, and B: she's rather too old. Even if Marple were improbably ancient by the time of the Murder at the Vicarage, she can't have been the Implacable Detective's age nearly forty years earlier. That said, the essential thread of influence is surely very strong.
(Also, this gives me an opportunity to play the game of Which Detectives Are Fictional In Other Detectives' Universes? For instance, the Holmes canon establishes Dupin as a fictional character. Fallen London references both Dupin and Holmes obliquely, suggesting that both are real. I'm not sure, but I think that Poirot references Holmes as fictional. Poirot and Marple share a universe. Lord Peter Wimsey references Dupin and Holmes as fictional, and also Jeeves and Wooster. Amelia Peabody references Holmes as fictional, but also (confusingly) features real Baskervilles, and shares a newspaper with Lord Peter Wimsey. And if Fallen London featured anyone from Wimsey or Peabody, I'd be so excited, I'd do a backflip into my hat.)
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Sir Frederick, the Libertarian Esotericist. Lord Hubris, the Bloody Baron.
Juniper Brown, the Ill-Fated Orphan. Esther Ellis-Hall, the Fashionable Fabian.
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Diptych
Administrator
Posts: 3493
1/28/2015
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Marianne Anders wrote:
Who says Miss Marple can't be black? only your imagination. although quintessential Marple would probably be in her 30s circa the 1890s, it's true.
Arsene Lupin and Holmes are in the same universe, I think, so that's a possibility.
...are there any clues on who the Once-Dashing Smuggler is?
I'm thinking less that Miss Marple can't be black than that the Miss Marple we have is very, very white - she takes the Holmesian understanding of human behaviour generalised from the specifics of the English race- and class-structure as viewed from a position of genteel privilege, and turns it up to eleven. And also that I've noticed in the past haven't quite picked up on the Detective's blackness, and unintentionally whitewash her, which is a bit of a shame, so I'm generally keen to make that point clear.
I believe you're right about Lupin - though the name was later changed for copyright-evasion purposes. And, no clue about the Smuggler - he's a mysterious figure in more ways than one.
fortluna wrote:
I thought Holmes was actually consulted once in a Wimsey short story?Yeah, there is. It is a Very Cute Story involving kittens - "The Young Lord Peter Consults Sherlock Holmes"
I did not know about that - that is neat! I'm going to assume it's not entirely canonical, given that the novels frequently refer to the Holmes stories in fictional terms, and to Conan Doyle himself. (For the record, I also assume The Adventurous Exploit of the Cave of Ali Baba is non-canonical, because it's very silly, doesn't fit the timeline, and is never referred to again.)
edited by Sir Frederick Tanah-Chook on 1/28/2015
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Sir Frederick, the Libertarian Esotericist. Lord Hubris, the Bloody Baron.
Juniper Brown, the Ill-Fated Orphan. Esther Ellis-Hall, the Fashionable Fabian.
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