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Lore questions of idle, yet searing curiosity. Messages in this topic - RSS

Fing A. Prince
Fing A. Prince
Posts: 46

3/2/2021
There will be others, in this thread. But for now, tell me this:

(1) When you place a "natural" member of the genus Panthera (e.g. Cornelian tiger) in front of a Parabolan mirror - what does it reflect?

--
"Streetcat"
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Lady Sapho Byron
Lady Sapho Byron
Posts: 795

3/2/2021
Some giant Pleistocene cat?

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Fighting the Menace of Corsetry Since 1892.
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NotaWalrus
NotaWalrus
Posts: 354

3/3/2021
The reflection is accurate. Tigers are already peak cat.

--
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Ignacious, the Fluid Professor, he will accept most social invitations, including boxed cats and affluent photographers (but only betrayals), though he is absent-minded and might take more time than entirely necessary. He apologizes.
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Fing A. Prince
Fing A. Prince
Posts: 46

3/4/2021
(2) Assuming you're mortal, and about to die: What's the difference between a devil getting your soul, and you keeping it?
Won't it just go the same way in both cases?

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"Streetcat"
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NotaWalrus
NotaWalrus
Posts: 354

3/4/2021
It's quite ambiguous. It does appear that you can take it into the afterlife. If you end up in the Blue Kingdom with your soul, then it might become Judgement food, but even that seems to be optional.

--
http://fallenlondon.com/Profile/NotaWalrus
Ignacious, the Fluid Professor, he will accept most social invitations, including boxed cats and affluent photographers (but only betrayals), though he is absent-minded and might take more time than entirely necessary. He apologizes.
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Lord Gazter
Lord Gazter
Posts: 668

3/4/2021
If either a Devil or spirifer gets their hands on your soul then when you died your soul would still be in the bottle that it was placed in and not have been affected by your death or your return. If you had your soul on you when you died it would have come with you on your journey to the boatman and come back with you.

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Lord Gazter: a charming gentleman of noble birth and a person of significant influence.

Victoria Crow: a spirited la.. young woman and freshly anointed firebrand.

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Fing A. Prince
Fing A. Prince
Posts: 46

3/5/2021
Allow me to reiterate: assuming you're mortal. As in, no returns from the boatman. Won't your soul be judgement chow either way, at the end of the road? I had the impression that it's just a question of how it gets to the table - via BK or via devils.

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"Streetcat"
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NotaWalrus
NotaWalrus
Posts: 354

3/5/2021
The devils of Hell are not aligned with the Judgments. They will hoard their souls indefinitely. Additionally, if you die for good in the Neath, you go to the Far Shore, which does not appear to be the domain of any Judgement.

--
http://fallenlondon.com/Profile/NotaWalrus
Ignacious, the Fluid Professor, he will accept most social invitations, including boxed cats and affluent photographers (but only betrayals), though he is absent-minded and might take more time than entirely necessary. He apologizes.
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PJ
PJ
Posts: 440

3/6/2021
Do snuffers have souls? Do they go to the Far Shore?

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Fing A. Prince
Fing A. Prince
Posts: 46

3/6/2021
(3) good question, PJ!

NotaWalrus wrote:
The devils of Hell are not aligned with the Judgments. They will hoard their souls indefinitely. Additionally, if you die for good in the Neath, you go to the Far Shore, which does not appear to be the domain of any Judgement.


Hmm, that raises a whole tangle of further questions!
(4) What use are souls to free devils? Are they just used as currency, with no entrinsic value of their own?
* Tangentially, does the answer vary depending on faction? Is it different for the Brimstone convention, Caduceus, or Carillon?

(5) Do we have any lore at all about the Far Shore? Is it purely a neathly feature, part of the general treachery-loophole that exempts the Neath from all things Judgement...al? Or does it have a place in the broader cosmology?

(6) For that matter, does anyone know whether the Neath was created on purpose, or just happened, and was discovered? (And if so, who discovered it first? King of Hours? Stone? Bazaar?) Could there be other neathes, in the bellies of other planets?

(7) In fact, are planets common at all? I've seen no indication of them in the other regions... but then, neither did i in Albion! That's odd; Earth (and, by extensions, at least Mercury and Venus) must have been within the King of Hours's domain.
* So, is the Clockwork's light so much weaker, that these planets are now outside its reach, and are part of the Wasteland of Stars?
* Does that mean Earth is now lightless and lawless, some manner of of Iron Republic Liberation of Night b___ery?

And while we're on the subject of the Waste:
(8) How were the relays established, to begin with?
It seems one would have to travel through a whole lot of Wasteland, in order to reach each of the other three regions, before a relay could be built there. Did London have fleets of Berringer grade locomotives to accomplish that?
Even if we assume Sappho and Halfie could be persuaded via correspondence to have relays built in their domains (unlikely), it still leaves the Reach, where you'd have nobody to work with.

Speaking of which -
(9) How is the Reach so bright, with Verdie long dead? Is it illuminated by the light of more distant Judgements?

--
"Streetcat"
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Lord Gazter
Lord Gazter
Posts: 668

3/6/2021
Masseurse wrote:
(4) What use are souls to free devils? Are they just used as currency, with no entrinsic value of their own?
* Tangentially, does the answer vary depending on faction? Is it different for the Brimstone convention, Caduceus, or Carillon?


Souls are a fundemental to Hell itself even before the Season of Revolutions lead to the overthrow of the Infernal Aristocracy. The Devils themselves use souls to replace their own souls as they slowly degrade in quality with time. They also use souls to power Law Furnaces, which are used to create new Laws.

The other factions of Devils use souls for same purposes with the only semi-deviation being the Brazen Brigade, who also offer up some souls they have collected to the Saints of Hell.

Masseurse wrote:
(6) For that matter, does anyone know whether the Neath was created on purpose, or just happened, and was discovered? (And if so, who discovered it first? King of Hours? Stone? Bazaar?) Could there be other neathes, in the bellies of other planets?


The Neath was original created by the Sun to hide the evidence of its violation against the Chain.

Masseurse wrote:
(7) In fact, are planets common at all? I've seen no indication of them in the other regions... but then, neither did i in Albion! That's odd; Earth (and, by extensions, at least Mercury and Venus) must have been within the King of Hours's domain.
* So, is the Clockwork's light so much weaker, that these planets are now outside its reach, and are part of the Wasteland of Stars?
* Does that mean Earth is now lightless and lawless, some manner of of Iron Republic Liberation of Night b___ery?


The King of Hours is not the Earth's Sun and as such not connected to our solar system. The King of Hours is a separate Judgement located a far distance from Earth and its Judgement. The Judgement of our solar system is still alive and well and as such things have not changed.
Masseurse wrote:
And while we're on the subject of the Waste:
(8) How were the relays established, to begin with?
It seems one would have to travel through a whole lot of Wasteland, in order to reach each of the other three regions, before a relay could be built there. Did London have fleets of Berringer grade locomotives to accomplish that?
Even if we assume Sappho and Halfie could be persuaded via correspondence to have relays built in their domains (unlikely), it still leaves the Reach, where you'd have nobody to work with.


Relays were most likely built first as the distance between areas in the High Wilderness is impossibly vast much like Space in our universe. I imagine that if you attempted to another region the long way you'd run out of food and fuel before you even made even made noticable progress. After being sent on a one way trip to the Region the first settlers are sent on they would then have to build a Relay Station that could take them back to the place they came from. Relays are also man made, and most likely made without the help of any Judgement.

Masseurse wrote:
Speaking of which -
(9) How is the Reach so bright, with Verdie long dead? Is it illuminated by the light of more distant Judgements?


The King of the Reach made plants which create their own light to keep the Reach illuminated some time before his death.
edited by Lord Gazter on 3/6/2021

--
Lord Gazter: a charming gentleman of noble birth and a person of significant influence.

Victoria Crow: a spirited la.. young woman and freshly anointed firebrand.

Get a copy of the Phlegethonian Gazette for pertinent and trustworthy news! Only ten pence!
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NotaWalrus
NotaWalrus
Posts: 354

3/7/2021
Souls are a fundemental to Hell itself even before the Season of Revolutions lead to the overthrow of the Infernal Aristocracy. The Devils themselves use souls to replace their own souls as they slowly degrade in quality with time. They also use souls to power Law Furnaces, which are used to create new Laws.

The other factions of Devils use souls for same purposes with the only semi-deviation being the Brazen Brigade, who also offer up some souls they have collected to the Saints of Hell.


Where is this information from? I do not recall any lore that says devils use souls to replace their own. In fact, there is lore that contradicts the idea.

The relation between devils and souls is that devils used to be chefs who prepared souls for consumption by the Judgements. Even after they rebelled, the devils still feel a biological imperative to collect and refine souls, very much in analogy to how bees collect and spread pollen.

The Neath was original created by the Sun to hide the evidence of its violation against the Chain.


I believe this, too, is speculative.

Relays were most likely built first as the distance between areas in the High Wilderness is impossibly vast much like Space in our universe. I imagine that if you attempted to another region the long way you'd run out of food and fuel before you even made even made noticable progress. After being sent on a one way trip to the Region the first settlers are sent on they would then have to build a Relay Station that could take them back to the place they came from. Relays are also man made, and most likely made without the help of any Judgement.


To expand on this answer. The relays exploit paths left behind by the Burrower Below, mother to the Aeginae. The relay construction questline (plus the Reach-Eleutheria relay) also shows us that indeed, in order to travel through a relay, it is not necessary for there to be a functioning relay on the other side.

--
http://fallenlondon.com/Profile/NotaWalrus
Ignacious, the Fluid Professor, he will accept most social invitations, including boxed cats and affluent photographers (but only betrayals), though he is absent-minded and might take more time than entirely necessary. He apologizes.
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Fing A. Prince
Fing A. Prince
Posts: 46

3/10/2021
Lord Gazter wrote:

Souls are a fundemental to Hell itself even before the Season of Revolutions lead to the overthrow of the Infernal Aristocracy. The Devils themselves use souls to replace their own souls as they slowly degrade in quality with time. They also use souls to power Law Furnaces, which are used to create new Laws.

Wait, you can replace your own soul with another's, without losing your identity? Why don't regretful soulless folk just inhale a random soul from a bottle, then? They're relatively easy to come by, no?

I'm also a bit confused on infernal hierarchies: was the Aristocracy (aka Brimstone Convention) loyal to the Judgements that created the devils?
Are Hell-sailts and infernal aristocracy two different things?

NotaWalrus wrote:

Even after they rebelled, the devils still feel a biological imperative to collect and refine souls, very much in analogy to how bees collect and spread pollen.

Hmm, so they're sentient creatures driven by an overwhelming instinct for hoarding something they have no actual use for? Dang, sucks to be a devil!

Lord Gazter wrote:

The King of Hours is not the Earth's Sun and as such not connected to our solar system.

Ohhh! I didn't realize that. Is anything known about our local Judgement?


Lord Gazter wrote:

Relays were most likely built first as the distance between areas in the High Wilderness is impossibly vast much like Space in our universe. I imagine that if you attempted to another region the long way you'd run out of food and fuel before you even made even made noticable progress. After being sent on a one way trip to the Region the first settlers are sent on they would then have to build a Relay Station that could take them back to the place they came from. Relays are also man made, and most likely made without the help of any Judgement.


That's exactly what i'm saying: how did they manage to get these pioneers to the future locations of relays in the first place? Is that ever addressed in the lore? It sees like even being a very short way into the Wasteland, screws with you rather heavily. Imagine the years of travel it would take, to deliver the relay construction crew to its destination...


NotaWalrus wrote:
in order to travel through a relay, it is not necessary for there to be a functioning relay on the other side.



Oh, that actually makese sense. I guess i kinda automatically thought of them as stargates, so that never occurred to me.

Thanks, both of you!
edited by Masseurse on 3/10/2021

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"Streetcat"
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Mulligan
Mulligan
Posts: 86

3/10/2021
Masseurse wrote:
I'm also a bit confused on infernal hierarchies: was the Aristocracy (aka Brimstone Convention) loyal to the Judgements that created the devils?

Are Hell-sailts and infernal aristocracy two different things?
If I'm remembering correctly, the aristocracy of Hell was formed after the failed rebellion against the Judgements and the Devils subsequent escape into Parabola via Caduceus. As such, it is likely that the Brimstone Convention/Infernal aristocracy is 'against' or, at the very least, unaffiliated with the Judgements. It seems to me that all Infernal Saints are members of the aristocracy, as the Violist is dubbed the Queen-Saint by the Scarlet Condottiere, but not all members of the aristocracy are Saints. You meet a former prince during the Heart's Desire ambition, and I'm fairly certain there are no mentions of them being a Saint. The Saints are specifically referred to as "the grand devils who once served in the heavens" by the Curious Dilettante in Eleutheria, indicating that they are perhaps the oldest/most powerful among the Infernal aristocracy or among the most favored servants of the Judgements before the revolution.

Masseurse wrote:
Hmm, so they're sentient creatures driven by an overwhelming instinct for hoarding something they have no actual use for? Dang, sucks to be a devil!
I wouldn't say that there's no actual use for a soul. Given their drive to refine souls, their consideration of the very act of refining to be an art/science, and their ability to take aesthetic pleasure in appealing souls, you could argue that souls have as much of a purpose to the Devils as art does to us. Gotta get that serotonin somehow, y'know? Plus they make a such a nice 'pop' when you throw them on the fire.

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Alexander Feld
Alexander Feld
Posts: 390

3/10/2021
Masseurse wrote:

Wait, you can replace your own soul with another's, without losing your identity? Why don't regretful soulless folk just inhale a random soul from a bottle, then? They're relatively easy to come by, no?

The precise ritual needed for re-ensoulment may not be common knowledge. From my extensive experience with getting my own soul back, there seems to be a bit more to it than just inhaling.

As for if you could just substitute someone else's soul for your own... Judging from what goes on in the Empire of Hands, it is entirely possible to put someone else's soul in your body, but that isn't without side effects. Souls seem to acquire traits from their host, as well as influencing said host. A reciprocal relationship, you see. So using someone else's soul would make you more like them (or who they were until their soul was removed), rather than reinforcing your own sense of self.

It is quite possible I have spent too long thinking about this.

--
I am a star-gazer, story-eater, and a smelter of words.

I filch hidden things from hidden places, to hide once more in my dark cabinet of curiosities

Alexander Feld, the mad, damned, lord of seekers.
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NotaWalrus
NotaWalrus
Posts: 354

3/10/2021
That's exactly what i'm saying: how did they manage to get these pioneers to the future locations of relays in the first place? Is that ever addressed in the lore? It sees like even being a very short way into the Wasteland, screws with you rather heavily. Imagine the years of travel it would take, to deliver the relay construction crew to its destination...


The very first relays were created based on discoveries by Singh and Jenkins (whoever they are), who also led the famous Singh-Jenkins expedition, the very first empire-sponsored exploration of the High Wilderness.

Note that the Merchant Venturer arrived in the High Wilderness before them and had no issues getting to the Blue Kingdom from Albion, so relays are not strictly necessary for travel. There are paths, if you know where to find them, and most of them fall under the purview of the Burrower Below.

--
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Ignacious, the Fluid Professor, he will accept most social invitations, including boxed cats and affluent photographers (but only betrayals), though he is absent-minded and might take more time than entirely necessary. He apologizes.
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Fing A. Prince
Fing A. Prince
Posts: 46

3/11/2021
Mulligan wrote:
If I'm remembering correctly, the aristocracy of Hell was formed after the failed rebellion against the Judgements and the Devils subsequent escape into Parabola via Caduceus. As such, it is likely that the Brimstone Convention/Infernal aristocracy is 'against' or, at the very least, unaffiliated with the Judgements. It seems to me that all Infernal Saints are members of the aristocracy, as the Violist is dubbed the Queen-Saint by the Scarlet Condottiere, but not all members of the aristocracy are Saints. You meet a former prince during the Heart's Desire ambition, and I'm fairly certain there are no mentions of them being a Saint. The Saints are specifically referred to as "the grand devils who once served in the heavens" by the Curious Dilettante in Eleutheria, indicating that they are perhaps the oldest/most powerful among the Infernal aristocracy or among the most favored servants of the Judgements before the revolution.

I see. So there was one devil revolution (by the aristocracy) against the Judgements; then later a second, "republican" revolution, ousting the Aristocracy. Do we know what conflict fueled the latter?

Also, where does Hell, as a location, come in? Is it a physical part of the Neath?
When and why did devilkind move there, from Parabola?

Mulligan wrote:
I wouldn't say that there's no actual use for a soul. Given their drive to refine souls, their consideration of the very act of refining to be an art/science, and their ability to take aesthetic pleasure in appealing souls, you could argue that souls have as much of a purpose to the Devils as art does to us. Gotta get that serotonin somehow, y'know? Plus they make a such a nice 'pop' when you throw them on the fire.

Ah, that certainly clarifies things!
...Incidentally, souls can actually be destroyed? That's a disturbing thought.

Alexander Feld wrote:
The precise ritual needed for re-ensoulment may not be common knowledge. From my extensive experience with getting my own soul back, there seems to be a bit more to it than just inhaling.

As for if you could just substitute someone else's soul for your own... Judging from what goes on in the Empire of Hands, it is entirely possible to put someone else's soul in your body, but that isn't without side effects. Souls seem to acquire traits from their host, as well as influencing said host. A reciprocal relationship, you see. So using someone else's soul would make you more like them (or who they were until their soul was removed), rather than reinforcing your own sense of self.

It is quite possible I have spent too long thinking about this.


That's actually very illuminating. Thank you!

NotaWalrus wrote:

Note that the Merchant Venturer arrived in the High Wilderness before them and had no issues getting to the Blue Kingdom from Albion, so relays are not strictly necessary for travel. There are paths, if you know where to find them, and most of them fall under the purview of the Burrower Below.


Hey, that's a good point!
I wonder how he made it, and what prevents others from reproducing his accomplishment. Seems like inter-region travel that eschews SJRs would be coveted by any smuggler and spy.

--
"Streetcat"
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NotaWalrus
NotaWalrus
Posts: 354

3/11/2021
Ah, that certainly clarifies things!
...Incidentally, souls can actually be destroyed? That's a disturbing thought.


Yes, you can do it in game during Christmas if you have the rooms at the Brass Embassy by throwing them into an ordinary fire. Good quality souls are apparently more resistant to this.

There is also lacre, which makes them explode.

--
http://fallenlondon.com/Profile/NotaWalrus
Ignacious, the Fluid Professor, he will accept most social invitations, including boxed cats and affluent photographers (but only betrayals), though he is absent-minded and might take more time than entirely necessary. He apologizes.
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Aro Saren
Aro Saren
Posts: 551

29 days ago
Masseurse wrote:

I see. So there was one devil revolution (by the aristocracy) against the Judgements; then later a second, "republican" revolution, ousting the Aristocracy. Do we know what conflict fueled the latter?

Also, where does Hell, as a location, come in? Is it a physical part of the Neath?

When and why did devilkind move there, from Parabola?


Hell is located west of London, upstream the Stolen River.
Devils went through the Parabola from Caduceus to Neath and established a country on arrival, bargaining for territory with native Neathy powers, of which the Tower/Creditor is the representative. Exact price is unspecified, but the Hell still owes some favours to them, which still can be called in.

Old aristocracy was callous and self-centered. When the Season of Revolutions happened on the Surface, someone thought it to be a great idea. Since Feducci fought in this war too, there may be some covert Presbyterate influence in riling up the masses to subvert a foreign power, like with most actual revolutions.

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Fing A. Prince
Fing A. Prince
Posts: 46

27 days ago
Aro Saren wrote:

Devils went through the Parabola from Caduceus to Neath and established a country on arrival, bargaining for territory with native Neathy powers, of which the Tower/Creditor is the representative.

So there wasn't a period during which they just dwelled in Parabola? And if so, why not? Seems like it would serve them better than an Is location.

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"Streetcat"
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