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Why You Should Cancel Your Exceptional Friendship Messages in this topic - RSS

MidnightVoyager
MidnightVoyager
Posts: 881

1 days ago
The complaints weren't that the "outfits weren't reversed yesterday." You're being as dismissive as Failbetter was in their announcement, and their dismissiveness was my main problem with it. They attributed the complaints to a statistically insignificant group of people that I'm not even in, seeming to ignore people like me's reasons for not liking it.

If Failbetter had communicated in a way that didn't feel like it was immediately dismissing me, that would have been fine, and I would have been happy with it. They did not, so I'm not really happy about it.

--
Midnight Voyager - A blood-cousin to predators. Collector of beasts. Affably mad.
+16 link
Snort
Snort
Posts: 193

1 days ago
Nirrti wrote:
Snort wrote:
Well, that’s pretty dismissive and a bit insulting. “Boycott vociferously”? More like “complain about a major change they see as taking the fun out of the game for them.” “Demand reversed yesterday”? Hardly. More like “complained about, got told they were in the minority and would just have to get used to it, and are voting with their money.”

You don’t care about it? That’s fine. But don’t assume I’m obligated to agree with you or pay for something that I don’t like.


This thread is titled "Why *You* Should Cancel *Your* Exceptional Friendship." It was started for the express purpose of encouraging more players not to give money to FBG so they would take a "financial hit". That is called a boycott, and it is not being done quietly. FBG said just yesterday that they are looking at this issue and would scale back the outfit restrictions over the weeks to come, and that prompted an entire thread of complaints that outfits weren't reversed yesterday. So, I believe both statements are accurate.

I don't assume you are obligated to agree with me. I am expressing sympathy and support for a small group of indie developers who have done wonderful things with this game this year, then made one misstep, which they are working to improve. I think they deserve a lot more kudos for the former than criticism for the latter than they have been receiving on these forums, and am trying to redress the balance a little (as someone who otherwise almost never posts).

I am disappointed to see players encouraging others to cause FBG a "financial hit" - I love this game and would like to see it continue to be developed. The original poster is encouraging others to cause FBG to "los[e] a large chunk of their income" - you're talking about a small number of individuals who write stories you love, too. I think this response to any annoyance around outfits is out of proportion.



That's still pretty dismissive and insulting. Nobody is demanding immediate action. FBG has already announced that it would not reverse the most ill-thought-out and unworkable part - the outfit lock.

Look, people who don't like it can vote the only way they can - by not spending money. And money is, after all, pretty much the only thing that talks here, since FBG has decided that the complainers are in the minority. If you like or support the changes, put your money where your mouth is. Outvote the people who dislike the outfit lock. Heck, if you just buy 5 or 6 hundred fate a month, you'll more than make up for the fate I'm not buying.

--
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Julius de Poisson
Julius de Poisson
Posts: 55

1 days ago
Nirrti wrote:
I am expressing sympathy and support for a small group of indie developers who have done wonderful things with this game this year, then made one misstep, which they are working to improve. I think they deserve a lot more kudos for the former than criticism for the latter than they have been receiving on these forums, and am trying to redress the balance a little (as someone who otherwise almost never posts).

I have been praising this game and am still very much in love with it - while at the same time stating my dislike of the update and especially the way in which feedback has been handled. It's not unreasonable for people to decide they're not comfortable paying to play a game where their concerns are misrepresented then hand-waved away as a statistically unimportant. It's also not unreasonable for them to feel the only real power they have to be heard is by voting with their wallet and to enlist others to vote similarly.

I have sympathy for this small group of developers and content creators - and I have a great deal of gratitude for what they've given us over the years, that has not gone away. However they admit to having spread themselves thin over multiple projects and getting resources to attend to the outfit lock will likely take the rest of this month, with no real idea given about what 'scale back' means. They've already said that there will be no changes to optimise older content to the new direction, barring a few high value areas. This to me implies we are at a watershed moment and there will be effectively two gameplay methods in the future - one for the new content, one to deal with older content in an effective way. I'm happy that my characters are end/late game, just the thought of coming to grips with that exhausts me.

What worries me most is the lack of engagement with the player base before implementation - I'm in IT and have an idea of what they're experiencing. Beta and UAT testing is a massive pain in the arse but also essential for delivering significant changes that actually work and it doesn't appear that this was done in a significant way.

--
Julius de Poisson - Paramount Presence. Midnighter. Poet Laureate. Scholar. A Neathy Renaissance man.

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Zeel
Zeel
Posts: 289

1 days ago
Snort wrote:
[Look, people who don't like it can vote the only way they can - by not spending money. And money is, after all, pretty much the only thing that talks here, since FBG has decided that the complainers are in the minority. If you like or support the changes, put your money where your mouth is. Outvote the people who dislike the outfit lock. Heck, if you just buy 5 or 6 hundred fate a month, you'll more than make up for the fate I'm not buying.



I will be honest, I don't want to long-term not be an Exceptional Friend. I do have a soft spot for Failbetter as a company, it's why I've invested my money in Exceptional Stories and Fate purchases such as a fully upgraded lab, because I want them to succeed and I want to contribute to them. My intention with the financial boycott (I will still be playing) is to vote with the only resource we have that really matters, the bottom line. I feel like this has already had some permanent costs in terms of people who won't be coming back thanks to their frankly unhelpful response. Despite my feelings I will still be resubbing once Failbetter listens to us, but it is currently conditional.

Nirrti wrote:
FBG said just yesterday that they are looking at this issue and would scale back the outfit restrictions over the weeks to come, and that prompted an entire thread of complaints that outfits weren't reversed yesterday. So, I believe both statements are accurate.


Except that they didn't. They quoted a "silent majority" and doubled-down on their approach while openly admitting as 15 people they don't have the resources to rework the entire game's difficulties to fit this strategy. Furthermore ever since the update the servers are going down so frequently that, as an Exceptional Friend, I'm struggling to play at all and as someone who is spending money on this experience I choose not to fund a faulty service. A rollback to the old system during optimization would mean we can actually play the game, and that is the main reason I'm so frustrated it hasn't been done yet. It's not only a system that doesn't work for me, it's a system that has broken the game and is wasting my Exceptional Friendship.

--
http://www.fallenlondon.com/Profile/Zeel - Zeel, also known as the Hollow Hellion. A soulless, heartless, empty individual who will only deal with those who are advantageous to him.
http://www.fallenlondon.com/Profile/Jass The Sly Socialite, or the Devious Rogue, depending where you see her. Jass lives a double life, alternating between the God-fearing, popular socialite and one of the many crime-lords of London.
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IF YOU WANT A PARABOLAN KITTEN please send me a social engagement or menace reduction to either account.
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Tyrconnell
Tyrconnell
Posts: 292

1 days ago
Saying that the outfits have broken the game is hyperbolic. They're unfun, solving a problem that most of us don't think exists while causing obvious problems, and they cause unpleasant busywork, but the game was still playabe. It's justifiable to say that the direction this has gone requires a vote of no confidence by wallet, but the game is there.

Sort of.

If I unsubscribe now, it will be because the number of hangs and crashes has made the game unplayable in a literal sense. It seems silly to pay money for a game that I can't play.

--
Tyrconnell, a gentleman and doctor of diverse interests and multifarious proclivities
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Zeel
Zeel
Posts: 289

1 days ago
Tyrconnell wrote:
Saying that the outfits have broken the game is hyperbolic.

If I unsubscribe now, it will be because the number of hangs and crashes has made the game unplayable in a literal sense. It seems silly to pay money for a game that I can't play.


That's what I mean. The servers are constantly crashing and it's been happening ever since this update. I do not believe the servers simultaneously bugged out along with the update by coincidence, the update has caused the game to become unplayable through crashes and simply not being able to connect.

--
http://www.fallenlondon.com/Profile/Zeel - Zeel, also known as the Hollow Hellion. A soulless, heartless, empty individual who will only deal with those who are advantageous to him.
http://www.fallenlondon.com/Profile/Jass The Sly Socialite, or the Devious Rogue, depending where you see her. Jass lives a double life, alternating between the God-fearing, popular socialite and one of the many crime-lords of London.
https://www.fallenlondon.com/profile/The%20Associate The Newest of the Cabal.
IF YOU WANT A PARABOLAN KITTEN please send me a social engagement or menace reduction to either account.
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Baron Lagavulin
Baron Lagavulin
Posts: 53

1 days ago
Nirrti wrote:
This thread is titled "Why *You* Should Cancel *Your* Exceptional Friendship." It was started for the express purpose of encouraging more players not to give money to FBG so they would take a "financial hit". That is called a boycott, and it is not being done quietly. FBG said just yesterday that they are looking at this issue and would scale back the outfit restrictions over the weeks to come, and that prompted an entire thread of complaints that outfits weren't reversed yesterday. So, I believe both statements are accurate.

I don't assume you are obligated to agree with me. I am expressing sympathy and support for a small group of indie developers who have done wonderful things with this game this year, then made one misstep, which they are working to improve. I think they deserve a lot more kudos for the former than criticism for the latter than they have been receiving on these forums, and am trying to redress the balance a little (as someone who otherwise almost never posts).

I am disappointed to see players encouraging others to cause FBG a "financial hit" - I love this game and would like to see it continue to be developed. The original poster is encouraging others to cause FBG to "los[e] a large chunk of their income" - you're talking about a small number of individuals who write stories you love, too. I think this response to any annoyance around outfits is out of proportion.

It's called a call to protest. Also, we're not that likely to march outside FB's headquarters holding up picket signs, so we do what's realistic, withold payment to convey disatisfaction. It's a pretty standard thing. It's not mean, or vile, and we're not doing it to hurt them. Some are doing it to be heard and some are doing it because they're no longer enjoying something so they don't want to give money to it. Most, I believe, are doing it for both reasons.
edited by Baron Lagavulin on 8/2/2020

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Diptych
Diptych
Administrator
Posts: 3570

1 days ago
Baron Lagavulin wrote:
It's called a call to protest, not a boycott.



It can be both. A boycott is a form of protest in which one withdraws from dealings with a person or organisation, especially commercial dealings - ending subscriptions would thus definitely be a boycott. Normally, it's done for moral reasons - because the body being boycotted has done something harmful or worthy of censure - but I suppose it can be motivated by other factors too.

--
Sir Frederick, the Emancipationist Esotericist. Lord Hubris, the Bloody Baron.
Juniper Brown, the Ill-Fated Orphan. Esther Ellis-Hall, the Fashionable Fabian.
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Baron Lagavulin
Baron Lagavulin
Posts: 53

1 days ago
Diptych wrote:
Baron Lagavulin wrote:
It's called a call to protest, not a boycott.



It can be both. A boycott is a form of protest in which one withdraws from dealings with a person or organisation, especially commercial dealings - ending subscriptions would thus definitely be a boycott. Normally, it's done for moral reasons - because the body being boycotted has done something harmful or worthy of censure - but I suppose it can be motivated by other factors too.

Yes, you're right. I already edited the "not a boycott" part out of my post but you ninja quoted me. Just woke up, haven't had coffee. I say stupid things.

--
https://www.fallenlondon.com/profile/Baron Lagavulin
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esrtweet
esrtweet
Posts: 13

21 hours ago
I think this thread has gone a bit overboard.

I'm an old-guard POSI, about 7th or 8th to get the cider - been playing for ten years. I like the recent huge drop of new content. I can't be philosophically opposed to outfit locking - in truth I always thought it was kind of silly that you could change outfits and companions on (say) Flute Street.

I think it's fair that entrances to outfit-locked storylets and locations should be signposted. That's a reasonable thing to ask for.

Can we give FBG a little time to think and digest here?
+4 link
Six Handed Merchant
Six Handed Merchant
Posts: 154

20 hours ago
Personally this all seems really extreme to me. I did not see their replies as condescending, outside of saying that Fallen London does not revolve around the players in the forums and Discord. Considering that websites have login and user statistics, I do think they have the data and are correct when they say that all of us here are a minority of the player base. We are the most vocal and biggest fans, but we also know what kind of reactionary senses of ownership can exist in avid fanbases (Nintendo, Star Wars, etc.). And they are correct that outfit locks will make gear more varied and interesting than simple best-in-slot calculations. Nothing from FB has been a lie or outright condescension.
So personally I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt here, and am going to keep my subscription active.

If your enjoyment of the game has been axed by this change, by all means unsubscribe. But if you're boycotting due to a perceived slight from the Devs, I ask that you reconsider dropping your goodwill so quickly.
.
edited by Six Handed Merchant on 8/2/2020

--
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Six Handed Merchant
Six Handed Merchant
Posts: 154

20 hours ago
And I'm not picking on the player base here, but these kinds of negative reactions to gameplay changes are common to all games, and I think we should be a bit more careful before insisting that the old way of doing things was the best.

https://www.destructoid.com/stories/new-darkest-dungeon-documentary-covers-the-highs-and-lows-of-early-access-588463.phtml

Although it's worth noting that Red Hook did make concessions to players who preferred the old system, and also put in the effort to tweak the change to make it more enjoyable.
.
edited by Six Handed Merchant on 8/3/2020

--
The Six Handed Merchant: If it's the truth you seek, The Six Handed Merchant is the gentlemen-, er, lady-, er, detective you need! Just pay no heed to that Eradication Officer tailing Six: that poor fellow is simply out of his mind!

Six's Mantlepiece (I am available for roleplaying and SAs. My schedule is pretty full, so please PM me first to work out the details.)
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MidnightVoyager
MidnightVoyager
Posts: 881

20 hours ago
Six Handed Merchant wrote:
And I'm not picking on the player base here, but these kinds of negative reactions to gameplay changes are common to all games, and I think we should be a bit more careful before insisting that the old way of doing things was the best.

https://www.destructoid.com/stories/new-darkest-dungeon-documentary-covers-the-highs-and-lows-of-early-access-588463.phtml

(Although I should also point out that Red Hook did make concessions to players who preferred the old system, and did put in the effort to tweak the change to make it more enjoyable.)
edited by Six Handed Merchant on 8/2/2020


I stopped playing Darkest Dungeon and didn't pick up any expansion packs after the changes, so.... uhhhh

(that wasn't all, it was the dev's balancing attitude of "find any strategy a player can reliably use and break it" feeling spiteful after a while. I stopped enjoying the game pretty quickly after a bunch of rebalancing.)
edited by MidnightVoyager on 8/2/2020

--
Midnight Voyager - A blood-cousin to predators. Collector of beasts. Affably mad.
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Snort
Snort
Posts: 193

20 hours ago
esrtweet wrote:
I think this thread has gone a bit overboard.

I'm an old-guard POSI, about 7th or 8th to get the cider - been playing for ten years. I like the recent huge drop of new content. I can't be philosophically opposed to outfit locking - in truth I always thought it was kind of silly that you could change outfits and companions on (say) Flute Street.

I think it's fair that entrances to outfit-locked storylets and locations should be signposted. That's a reasonable thing to ask for.

Can we give FBG a little time to think and digest here?


Didn’t they already do that? I don’t recall people deciding not to pay extra until they did.

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Lady Karnstein
Lady Karnstein
Posts: 308

20 hours ago
For me both being condescended to and the outfit changes were enough to strongly consider ending my subscription. Together they make it the obvious choice'

--
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Infamous writer, artist, and courtesan. Unrepentant Invert. Hesperidean.
Paramount Presence, Correspondent, Nocturnal. Poet Laureate of the Neath, Ambassador to Arbor
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Ixc
Ixc
Posts: 385

18 hours ago
Six Handed Merchant wrote:
And I'm not picking on the player base here, but these kinds of negative reactions to gameplay changes are common to all games, and I think we should be a bit more careful before insisting that the old way of doing things was the best.




Unfortunately, the main reason this has been going on so long is not the gameplay changes, but the devs' response to it; they acknowledged there was an issue and that they were going to change it time... but that this decision was also prompted by them revealing a pretty poor view on the community:
a) they think Discord/Forum players are a bunch of min-maxers (ignoring, of course, that's the playstyle they have been encouraging/forcing) and thus the majority of negative feedback is a tiny minority without evidence.
b) a 'similar' controversy, broad challenges blew over, when the issue here isn't that outfit changes are hard (intentionally) or controversial, it's that they're broken.

In a way it's good that they showed this perspective, because the community can point out faults with it as it already has. And while some might say that a perspective isn't bad, it is going to be the viewpoint with which they design the game, and how they'll interact with the community. And while I don't want to harm a small company, especially during a time like this, I really think many of players here are in the right.

--
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Jolanda Swan
Jolanda Swan
Posts: 1813

17 hours ago
This. The company and the game has changed significantly in the past few months. Given these months were hard times for everyone involved I didn't think of cancelling or even complaining until now.
But given that I'm staring at a now unplayable ES I've paid for (paisley), half my Ambition, and a bunch of Fate-paid Whitsun items I cannot enjoy, and the only answer we got to our concerns was a polite dismissal, not wanting to invest more money until the issue is resolved is not entitlement. It's... completely rational, I think.
So please do not compare a consistently polite, patient, supportive playerbase with the worst examples in fandom (i.e. Star Wars controversies). Designers have a right to experiment and make changes. However, if they do so in a way that inconveniences their playerbase, said playerbase should not feel guilty for withdrawing their support.
Note that if the lock remains (instead of being applied only to specific future content), and many players lose interest, many of us will be left heavily dissapointed: I want to find out what having the Viscountess Mayor does, what happened to Arbor, how my Ambition ends etc. These are all living stories! We're invested in them!
Which goes a long way to show how annoying these changes really are.

--
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Lady Karnstein
Lady Karnstein
Posts: 308

9 hours ago
Jolanda Swan wrote:

Note that if the lock remains (instead of being applied only to specific future content), and many players lose interest, many of us will be left heavily dissapointed: I want to find out what having the Viscountess Mayor does, what happened to Arbor, how my Ambition ends etc. These are all living stories! We're invested in them!

Which goes a long way to show how annoying these changes really are.


Agreed. I find it elating to see how many people with opinions I have come to respect (like you) also feel like I do. It sadly does not counter the disappointment I feel, however.


I could not have foreseen me reacting like this just a fortnight ago.

--
Lady Caroline Karnstein, The Moral Hedonist (Description)
Infamous writer, artist, and courtesan. Unrepentant Invert. Hesperidean.
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Aardvark
Aardvark
Posts: 199

8 hours ago
esrtweet wrote:
I think this thread has gone a bit overboard.

I'm an old-guard POSI, about 7th or 8th to get the cider - been playing for ten years. I like the recent huge drop of new content. I can't be philosophically opposed to outfit locking - in truth I always thought it was kind of silly that you could change outfits and companions on (say) Flute Street.

I think it's fair that entrances to outfit-locked storylets and locations should be signposted. That's a reasonable thing to ask for.

Can we give FBG a little time to think and digest here?



Mostly, I agree.

While the response was not optimal so far, personally, it doesn't seem quite as offensive or abusive as some of our own reactions have suggested.

I also understand why the devs don't want to simply remove the lock globally. The statement leaves a lot to be desired, particulary regarding the one-shot, unquittable storylets and exceptional stories which as far as I am concerned are the only truly huge problem rather than an inconvenience. But I'll give FBG the benefit of doubt to see how they tackle these areas before jumping ship.

I get why people feel like they do, but at this point, after a single poorly-worded statement, I think that it is a little bit early to withdraw all the goodwill they built up over many years. If the change makes the game unplayable for you, by all means unsubscribe; personally, I will keep playing, will keep avoiding exceptional stories for the time being, and will only consider unsubscribing after I see and consider the actual, in-game reactions to our feedback and further rationale from FBG.

Though to be sure, it is sad to see so many notable members of these forums lose their faith in the game. It truly feels like the community is losing a lot of good folks, which can only hurt the game long term.

--
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