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Revolutionary anti-Liberationists: where's logic? Messages in this topic - RSS

JaneAnkhVeos
JaneAnkhVeos
Posts: 168

7/17/2020
Warning: spoilers!

[spoiler]The revolutionary anti-Liberationists in Ealing Gardens honestly confuse me.

Namely the Veteran Revolutionary, but also Ancona herself in some way and the players’ "I fully support Emancipationists, but I hate that FL forces me to gain even a single point of Liberationists if I want to get Mutersalt without Fate, or even a single point of Advancing the Liberation of Night anywhere else" that I see a lot.

It is perfectly logical for anti-revolutionaries. But revolutionaries/emancipationists themselves?

I can understand a character who just doesn’t care that their soul (and all their loved ones’) will inevitably be eaten by celestial tyrants, but I can’t imagine anyone who would stand for it (by fervently opposing those who don’t want living beings to be slaves to fate, death and the Judgements’ selfish whims). Unless they know nothing of it. (But while it’s true that not a lot of people have seen even a small fraction of everything our Captains witness first-hand in the High Wilderness, many Neathians do know what sunlight does to things it doesn’t allow.)

Like, it’s the whole point of this faction in FL/SS. You may free London from the Masters and the Bazaar (whose repeated mass genocide by lacre and manipulative deception of the despaired also wouldn’t happen if it weren’t for the Judgements’ laws on who may love whom and the Couriers' place in the Chain), strive for equality, achieve better conditions for the workers and the poor... but in a Lovecraftian universe it all will be meaningless. You are still nothing, except maybe a snack, and so are all your hopes, deeds and moral values. Unless you have the courage to object. Because it is definitely possible to succeed. And knowing this (and that lawless or semi-lawless places like Eleutheria, Parabola, the Neath, etc. are quite livable and not so terrible), it’s absolutely illogical for a revolutionary to demand "no, leave everything as it is, let’s just forgive the conscious sources of all tyranny because light is so nice".

Are they convinced that freedom from the Masters is a bigger priority than some complicated distant goal? For now, maybe. But as I’ve already said, the Masters are not the real cause of injustice, only its secondary (or tertiary, if you count the Bazaar separately) link.
(And this is why a very similar logic of "let’s also forgive our direct oppressors who use us as cattle because they’re cute bats" is less questionable: at least the Masters don’t try to deny their crimes, while the Judgements claim to be perfect gods who must never be doubted or disobeyed – despite being just as flawed and petty as beings much lower on the Chain.)

Are they afraid that a more risky Cause would take too many innocent lives (like in a certain Destiny)? They all know that death is temporary in the Neath where the light's dictate doesn't reach. In even greater darkness, there will be no law that says that you can't just snap your fingers and ressurect them. And no law that obliges anyone to die in the first place.

The Jovial Contrarian was the only rev whose opposition to the Liberation of Night didn’t seem odd to me. Because it is his defining trait to debate everything from all angles and to think of all possible alternatives. Which is infinitely admirable and sometimes very useful, but... I don’t remember hearing any justification from him, only the position itself. And I can’t come up with one myself, even as a sophistical exercise.[/spoiler]

Perhaps FBG are yet to elaborate on this sub-faction’s reasoning as the Railway’s plot goes further?

.
edited by JaneAnkhVeos on 9/4/2020

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Diptych
Diptych
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Posts: 3633

7/17/2020
JaneAnkhVeos wrote:
But while it’s true that not a lot of people have seen even a small fraction of everything our Captains witness first-hand in the High Wilderness, many Neathians do know what sunlight does to things it doesn’t allow.



It would take quite the logician to infer the Byzantine intrigues of the High Wilderness from the existence of sunlight-sickness.

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Sir Frederick, the Emancipationist Esotericist. Lord Hubris, the Bloody Baron.
Juniper Brown, the Ill-Fated Orphan. Esther Ellis-Hall, the Fashionable Fabian.
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Mulligan
Mulligan
Posts: 73

7/17/2020
Okay, so most of this is my interpretation of intent rather than concrete proof. I've completed the Ambition: Truth route of Sunless Skies though, which I believe may be somewhat relevant to this discussion

[spoiler]The main difference, as far as I interpret it, is that those that seek the Liberation of Night aim to completely erase the chain, while the emancipationist revolutionaries seek to destabilize it or re-forge it in a way that makes it less tyrannically hierarchical (a loop where everyone is equally as dependant/supportive on/of each other). "The light need not necessarily go out" is, to me, another way of saying that laws can be beneficial when implemented in a way that does not exclude or target certain groups. This is a best-case scenario, but it provides solace to those who might be afraid of the complete lawlessness of the dark. Not to mention that they may be taking a pointer from the devils of hell, the original servants of the Judgements who have learnt to make their own laws. The devils became the first masters of their own fate through their rebellion, so what is to say humanity cannot follow them?

Now, you state that it is possible to succeed in a fight against the Judgements, but we do not actually know this to be completely true. All of the dead Judgements in Sunless Skies were killed by other Judgements, and in the case that you kill the Sapphir’d King you do so by enlisting the aid of an extremely powerful Spider-Senate, spreading spider-councils all across the High Wilderness, creating a poison over the course of 70 years, forging with the aid of the devils a soul so unique it is irresistible to the Judgements over an extra 30 years, planting a spider-egg inside of the Sapphir’d King through that poison, and then waiting another 100 years. In that case, you trade out the Judgements for an all-powerful, all-consuming spider-deity. But what about the unclear bomb? Well, A Little Pandemonium shows us that it might just work. Might. However, even if you kill one Judgement that leaves who knows how many more. The light will continue, and it might be complete folly to assume there is any chance that we are able to feasibly stand against the stars.

But there are the lawless places you mentioned. Most notably Eleutheria and Parabola. People can definitely exist in these places, but it’s not as if the absence of law automatically makes you a god. Death is still a very real thing in these places—even if it is rarer—and you can’t actually just wish someone back, otherwise there would be no stakes in the Cat/Fingerking war. Who cares who dies when you can just snap them back into existence? How would anyone push anyone else back when you can’t effectively lose anything? Besides that, the gleam 'whoever you can' destiny makes clear that people are not living good lives after this hypothetical Liberation. Why would that be if the dark allows them to be whatever they wish to be?

I used to also believe that the Liberation would be a path to complete power and freedom, until I realised (perhaps falsely) that it is not the personal gain of power, but the destruction of others power. If you were to try and wish someone back from the dead, you are essentially creating a miniature law that states “This person must be alive.” This cannot be in a state where there are no laws. All the Liberation means, to me, is that you take away that power of law from those that currently hold it. Some people don’t want to be powerless, even if everyone else is as well.[/spoiler]

There might be some issues in the long supposition above. But it’s also 3am where I currently am, and the nature of complete lawlessness is really confusing because it doesn't actually exist, so I hope you’ll forgive my rambling.

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Quidam
Quidam
Posts: 84

7/19/2020
I don't think the Liberation of Night is the abolishment of all law. As someone interested in logic, I tend to think about things like the principle of non-contradiction and the law of identity (A=A) as thing that the Liberation can't broke, because that would lead to paradox. It would be a pyrrhic victory, since if the law of contradiction is broken, the principle of explosion would then make the Judgement both alive and dead, and the revolution both successful and a failure. In that case, what does the Liberation entail? Which lead us to the Iron Republic.

[spoiler] I have heard that the devil use soul in the Iron-republic to create law. If this is true, it give us a better idea of what the Liberation entail. Somebody's soul would create law for them, If they have one. So no, I don't think Parabola and the Iron-Republic are representative of the world post-Liberation, since the laws in these place are either created by devils, or exist independently of ourself. However, that's just one theory about the Liberation of Night. Another one is to take a more literal route, and see the Night has an entity itself that revolutionary wish to liberate. There is thread about this theory on the forum.[/spoiler]

As for the coherency of the Anti-Liberationist position, first of all, I don't know how much people are aware of the Blue Kingdom. They don't know what there is after death. However, you could point out that they have an awareness that the universe is full of monsters and cosmic laws that don't care about tiny mortals. In which case I think this debate can be understood in term of the real-life question of reform vs revolution.

The Anti-Liberationist are cosmic reformist, that is to say they believe that they can create a just society within the existing system of the Great Chain and the Judgement. A constant theme in Fallen London and Sunless Sea is that sunlight is comforting and soothing. That's why people in the Neath miss it. Anti-Liberationist would then use that fact to argue that we should not extinguished the light and change the statue quo, because people are reassured by it. Only the Masters have to go. There would still be divine laws, but (in their mind) people need those. It's more important that everybody be fed and safe than to go to war against some abstract entity.

The Liberationist would reply that for people to be safe and fed, the cosmic monsters that are the Judgement have to go. Again, the Liberationist probably don't know about the Blue Kingdom, but they do see the atrocity committed by the Sun, who is jealous and cruel. The Judgement oppress all species who are under them in the Great Chain with their laws, and create the condition that lead to hunger and danger. So, they have to go. Darkness and freedom are scary, but it's the only way to make a better world.

Of course, all mortals don't have all the piece of the puzzle. Once you know about the Blue Kingdom, you can start to understand just how cruel this cosmic order is. However, for those on the ground, it's not quite clear.

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Lady Karnstein
Lady Karnstein
Posts: 333

7/17/2020
Caroline wants to free Humans from being controlled by other creatures. Insofar as she works to undermine the Masters she is revolutionary. Insofar as she tries to increasingly empower women in the Neath and on the surface she is Revolutionary. She is aware the Liberation of Night will cause mass chaos, death, and destruction, and place humans in a situation they are ill prepared for as well as weak and vulnerable, and in which other creatures, like Devils nd fingerkings, will likely thrive, and in her mind put humans in a worse situation than they already were in. She is not against non humans, her humanity does not hold up to scrutiny, but she feels that this would be terrible for them. And she also does not have an understanding of the metaphysics behind Fallen London. The idea that [spoiler] The Sun eats people's souls[/spoiler] is absurd to her, and even if she did understand that, turning reality into a chaotic mess would not be the ideal way to fix it...at least life is worth living for awhile in FL. As far as she is concerned the Liberation of Night wants to do away with law completely and that would be a very bad choice for humans; human history has been improving, and she has seen positive change especially in Fallen London. To her Liberationists are like the man-hating Suffragettes as opposed to the ones trying for equality; taking your rage at the guilty to the point of destroying innocents makes you as bad as what you fight.
edited by Lady Karnstein on 7/17/2020

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Lady Caroline Karnstein, The Moral Hedonist (Description)
Infamous writer, artist, and courtesan. Unrepentant Invert. Hesperidean.
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PJ
PJ
Posts: 315

7/19/2020
In Sunless Sea, the sun shines on Aestival through a hole in the roof. You can gather supplies there, but every once in a while a crew member will die with a blissful smile on her face. Her last words are "I've missed the zun."

You can sail up the Cumaean Canal to the surface and stay there for weeks, occasionally losing crew the whole time. The sun will be too much for you eventually, but who can say how long?
edited by PJ on 7/19/2020

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Diptych
Diptych
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Posts: 3633

9/5/2020
I'm not a Liberationist, necessarily, but if removing the laws governing use of the road also involves removing the laws of physics that say "if you crash into something, your car will be damaged and you will be hurt", people going too fast suddenly doesn't seem like such a big problem.

--
Sir Frederick, the Emancipationist Esotericist. Lord Hubris, the Bloody Baron.
Juniper Brown, the Ill-Fated Orphan. Esther Ellis-Hall, the Fashionable Fabian.
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JaneAnkhVeos
JaneAnkhVeos
Posts: 168

9/5/2020
The Curious Watcher wrote:
The optimal path would still incorporate necessary laws and rules to minimize casualties and confusion - like setting up designated lanes traffic signals, and speed limits - but would reduce punishments for criminal infractions and allow for more reasonable policies that benefit everyone.

Of course it would be much better. The problem is that the Judgements think themselves so above everyone else that they will never accept any limits to their power. Even the Halved who went dark willingly still clings to its old whims such as "no storytelling" on pain of eternal imprisonment.


Diptych wrote:
I'm not a Liberationist, necessarily, but if removing the laws governing use of the road also involves removing the laws of physics that say "if you crash into something, your car will be damaged and you will be hurt", people going too fast suddenly doesn't seem like such a big problem.

Yes, that’s what it looks like to me.

Although after seeing its actual application to the plot, it seems less like "no natural laws, pure chaos" and more like "there still are fundamental natural laws, but anyone can break them and no one is punished for this". (For example, laws of space are intact in Langley Hall or Piranesi, just changed in impossible ways.) And instead of a desperate "it may be the end of the world, but at least it will also be the end of slaughter and slavery", it is shown to be hopeful in many ways (life going on, "legalization" of Parabolan things such as in Caduceus, new rules of death, etc.). And d__n, it makes the Liberation immensely more attractive.

So it totally made sense even for a convinced revolutionary to reject it before, but less so after establishing the Winter’s Reside and seeing it in practice. And the revs of London already know about it (at as little as Renown 5, the PC can compose a song with a line "and Winter's Reside awaits where Halved night holds her gates"). That’s why I was confused. It’s one thing to say "no, I support a different approach and more immediate goals" and quite another to sabotage allies.

...Sorry for the walls of text again smile Just trying to find out how the old and new lore correspond with each other. And how to write my FL OCs (I’ve given a less radical philosophy to one of them – an idea of balance between light and darkness, law and freedom – but it seems so utopic that he can only be a dreamy theorist, which is unsuitable for the world where gods themselves are predators and you have to try to act in order not to become prey). Having put off this question, I’ll focus on them from now on.

.
edited by JaneAnkhVeos on 9/5/2020

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JaneAnkhVeos
JaneAnkhVeos
Posts: 168

9/4/2020
Lady Karnstein wrote:
She is aware the Liberation of Night will cause mass chaos, death, and destruction


So nothing new. The Bazaar and its Masters destroy city after city, killing thousands of innocents. And their servants seem to be fine with this.

Actually even incomparable, because death in lacre is absolute death ("where even souls cannot survive"), while one of the Liberation’s goals is to save everyone from similar fate by ending the Judgements’ feast beyond the Death’s Door.

The only known major destruction (of a priceless library) is the Halved’s fault. Who is also a Judgement. In all other respects, Eleutheria is a perfect example that life after the Liberation isn’t worse than before.


PJ wrote:
You can sail up the Cumaean Canal to the surface and stay there for weeks, occasionally losing crew the whole time. The sun will be too much for you eventually, but who can say how long?


Then why the Surface estate in HD can be visited only during the polar night? In Naples, the crew had to hide under the docks to survive the day as well.

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PJ
PJ
Posts: 315

7/18/2020
JaneAnkhVeos wrote:
Diptych wrote:
It would take quite the logician to infer the Byzantine intrigues of the High Wilderness from the existence of sunlight-sickness.


A simple &quotyou break a natural law, for example by not dying when you should = sunlight burns you to ashes in agony&quot is enough to suspect that some power controls it and it’s not merciful.


But that's not what we observe. We observe that people who spend considerable time in the Neath get sick and die if they return to the surface, and long-term Neath-dwellers can't handle prolonged exposure to sunlight. I've always heard vegetarians get sick to their stomachs if they start eating meat again. Probably the same thing happens with sunlight.

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Alexander Feld
Alexander Feld
Posts: 371

7/19/2020
To me, the Liberation of Night represents the ideal of freedom pushed to an absurd absolute: freedom from all laws, even the laws of nature. Total and complete anarchy. I feel there must be some middle ground between the tyranny of the Judgements and turning the concept of reality into soup.

I've seen the Iron Republic. I've seen Parabola. I've seen a possible future where the Liberation has succeeded. None of these are places remotely pleasant to live.

--
I am a star-gazer, story-eater, and a smelter of words.

I filch hidden things from hidden places, to hide once more in my dark cabinet of curiosities

Alexander Feld, the mad, damned, lord of seekers.
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JaneAnkhVeos
JaneAnkhVeos
Posts: 168

7/19/2020
The weird nature of objective existence, law and non-Platonic souls in FLverse indeed makes this subject even more controversial than it already is.

If less radical ways to change the cosmic order without breaking it completely could be found (and if they could be less gone-horribly-wrong than the Dawn Machine), of course they would be preferable. I confess I may have been too charmed by Eleutheria and my slightly more positive version of LoN Destiny ("with the aid of the Calendar Council, you begin to establish a new kind of society, a ripe and feverish vitality") and a bit carried away with the maximalism of "it’s better to die fighting than to live in slavery and then die anyway". I should have continued to use these emotions as fuel for art or RL instead. My trust in FBG is still immense (and so is my excitement about new lore, plotlines and perspectives), after all.

PJ wrote:
JaneAnkhVeos wrote:
Diptych wrote:
It would take quite the logician to infer the Byzantine intrigues of the High Wilderness from the existence of sunlight-sickness.


A simple "you break a natural law, for example by not dying when you should = sunlight burns you to ashes in agony" is enough to suspect that some power controls it and it’s not merciful.


But that's not what we observe. We observe that people who spend considerable time in the Neath get sick and die if they return to the surface, and long-term Neath-dwellers can't handle prolonged exposure to sunlight. I've always heard vegetarians get sick to their stomachs if they start eating meat again. Probably the same thing happens with sunlight.


For example, from ES "All things must end":
[spoiler]Unfortunately for him, their conversation is mainly speculating about the amount of suffering the Surface will cause.
"I assume the burning is excruciating." "Really? I would have thought it would be too fast for feeling." "Who knows how fast time passes, at that moment?" "Good point. It could be like an eternity. That would be awful."
[/spoiler]

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|| the Nocturnal Nostalgist, collector of dreams and memories ||
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Mulligan
Mulligan
Posts: 73

7/17/2020
JaneAnkhVeos wrote:
Can Fingerkings truly die if they don’t exist in the first place? The main stake of this war is the territorial control, not the numbers: they’re probably countless, as nonexistent/theoretical possibilities are.
This quote slightly contradicts this quote:

JaneAnkhVeos wrote:
I understand the Liberation as not "no laws exist" (it would be simply impossible), but rather as "no laws are enforced".
Because how can a Fingerking "exist" as a tangible threat within a realm if it is non-existent? To say this would be to assert that non-existence is a valid state of existence, which means that a state where no laws exist is theoretically just as possible as a state where laws exist. Why? Because it's all written as a contradiction. It is intentionally misleading and illogical in order to emulate a state of narrative lawlessness. It doesn't have to make sense or enter the realm of possibility. Parabola is a realm of paradoxes because of its lawlessness, where a huntsman can be made a huntsman on a Wednesday despite being a huntsman their entire lives. Just look at Irem, that place is a mess.

These types of conversations are probably why the Calendar Council never really gets anything done. Also probably why August joined up in the first place.

As far as 'souls being a source of law' goes, we don't know if the liberation will strip the law from our souls or simply remove our souls altogether. I mean, it's proven that people can live without their souls. But this is basically baseless conjecture because there's nothing that mentions souls in the Liberation of Night destinies (If I recall correctly, which I might not).

All I know is I'm really looking forward to how this revolution all *pans* out.

--
Jean Morel, waiting for December.
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Waterpls
Waterpls
Posts: 406

7/17/2020
[spoiler]The Chain read backward

"They think the Chain could do more to support them," says Furnace. "If there's a job to be done in the world, then the Chain should guarantee there's some creature that wants that job and thrives in it. Seeing that most of us do not take to working in a factory for Mr Fires. If the Chain wants us to follow its dictates, it should supply something that does."

"Taking the Universe at its word," says another voice, faintly.

"The first prehistoricist was my former partner," says Furnace. "Cornelius. He was quite the philosopher. Gone now. The new ones spend their dinner break swapping fantasies of the track-laying mastodons they're all going to be riding, come the new age."[/spoiler]

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